Gollum vs Other Hobbits - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

the real findorfin · 12-02-2002, 11:11 AM

It is said that Frodo was such a good ring bearer because he was a Hobbit, a race which has natural resilience to the Rings power.

How then, did Smeagol fall under the power of the ring so fast. I know that he was an evil creature anyway but he did seem to go a bit crazy with his brother, killing is a bit extreme. Wouldn't it have been better to steal it at a later date?

I would appreciate thoughts!

-Imrahil- · 12-02-2002, 11:28 AM

Your question is a good one and there is no definite answer. Tolkien mentioned that Smeagol was a bizarre creature even before he got the ring. He said he was interested in roots and beginning ect. He was not a normal, good-natured hobbit. He was slightly evil even before the ring came along. So naturally, the ring corrupted him faster.

That is my idea but truly, I'm not sure.

[ December 02, 2002: Message edited by: -Imrahil- ]

the real findorfin · 12-02-2002, 12:19 PM

Thanks Imrahil (for both answer and compliment). I suppose evil is easier to corrupt.

Arwen Imladris · 12-02-2002, 03:48 PM

I think that it wasn't hobbits that were risiliant, but Frodo. Other hobbits might have failed but Frodo, perhaps because of the maner of him getting the ring and his heart didn't. If you remember, Golum got the ring by killing someone - a bad start. Bilbo started his posession with pity. Frodo started because it was thrust upon him.

burrahobbit · 12-02-2002, 04:09 PM

I don't think that Gollum was corrupted very much by the ring, he was already corrupt. The Ring only twisted and stretched him.

Keneldil the Polka-dot · 12-02-2002, 06:03 PM

I agree with burrahobbit. Gollum possessed the seeds of his downfall before he had the Ring. Frodo also possessed the seeds of his downfall (he gave in at Mt. Doom) but they were a lot less to work with than Gollum's.

[ December 02, 2002: Message edited by: Keneldil the Polka-dot ]

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie · 12-02-2002, 06:53 PM

I agree with Arwen Imladris.

I don't think that Frodo was such a good ring bearer because he was a hobbit. I think that a lot of hobbits could have had a resilinece to the ring but my theory is that it was because they are simple. Hobbits' minds are hard to cloud because they are simple. It would be easier to confuse a human or any other race because they are either stupid (like trolls) or complex. Most hobbits in the shire were simple, simple because they did not deal with issues out of the shire. Their ignorance made it harder for the ring to confuse hobbits.

I also have a theory that the ring was a separate character in lotr. I don't think that it was just an object or a tool. When I read lotr, I get the impression that the ring was a character. It couldn't physically interact in the environment like the other characters could. It couldn't walk or talk, but it could think. I think that it had a mind and its own personality. Maybe its personality wasn't really developed but I'd describe it in one word- evil. The ring could use its mind not to communicate but to trick and confuse and to even control ring bearers. It even used ring bearer's to get closer to sauron. It had the ability leech on to a ringbearer's mind, or it was like a virus that enters the body (in the ring's case, the mind) and take over. I think that it could predict how it would get to sauron. For example, the ring purposely slipped off of isildur's finger to avoid being brought to Gondor and then under counsel, where it would be decided that it must be destroyed. Or maybe it wanted revenge for sauron. Anyway's, the ring saw gollum as an opportunity to get closer to sauron.

Now that you know my 2 theories, lets put them together. The ring needed to move. When it had the opportunity, it chose Deagol. It got out of the water and saw gollum. I think that it thought gollum would do better to move it or gollum would be easier to control.
Now if hobbits are simple folk who have a good resiliance to the ring, how would it have worked on gollum? Simple, Smeagol and Deagol were some of the hobbits that lived by the river and liked to maybe have some adventures. If they lived closer to other or 'Big folk,' then they were most likely not as ignorant as the other hobbits. They probably got news of things in middle earth over the years. And if Smeagol's family lived there for a long time, then their family over the years might have lost its simplicity. So if gollum had been less simple and more complex, it was probably harder for gollum to resist the ring and easier for the ring to corrupt gollum.

Hope that helps [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Gwaihir the Windlord · 12-02-2002, 07:38 PM

Quote:

also have a theory that the ring was a separate character in lotr.

Yes, it would perhaps appear that the Ring was a concious, thinking being. However I do not believe it was that, but simply a great power of malice, if you understand me. It was more a 'force' than a being. Maybe the reason it apparently wanted to make it's way back to Sauron was because it was drawn there by Sauron's own malice, or because he was it's creator, rather than because the Ring thought and planned it's way there.

Quote:

I don't think that Frodo was such a good ring bearer because he was a hobbit. I think that a lot of hobbits could have had a resilinece to the ring but my theory is that it was because they are simple.

I don't know about simple. Simple, to my mind, means unintelligent; this was certainly not so. Hobbits were rather down-to-earth people, and 'couldn't be doing with' (hehehe... that's a rather rustic one from my county of birth) magic; also they did not desire power or dominion but only a good life and peace.

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie · 12-02-2002, 08:05 PM

Simple means a lot of things to me but it does not mean unintelligent. To me, it means the opposite of complicated, it means ignorant, young/underdeveloped, crude. That may sound kind of negative so here are some way's it sounds more positive- neat, undemanding, and clear. I do agree with you that hobbits did not desire power or dominion but only a good life and peace. I think that is a way that hobbits were simple also; since they were undemanding.

You made a good point about the ring as a force instead of a separate character. However, I still believe in my idea that the ring is a character. But your point led me to another thought; maybe the ring is an extension of sauron. I think that since sauron and the ring were binded to each other this could make sense. Also, if it is an extension, it does make sense that when they are together, they are most powerful. I think that the ring had a mind of its own, but now it could be part of sauron's mind. And I don't think that sauron can telepathically communicate to the ring or something, so to me it makes sense if the ring's mind is part of sauron's mind but they think independently.

Thanks for the reply and for sparking another idea. I'd like to hear a response to this one also.

elfling · 12-02-2002, 08:37 PM

I agree with you guys about the ring being an evil force of its own. It was said that it left Gollum in the caves and that was how bilbo foung it. Though I don't believe the ring wanted to be found by Bilbo but just wanted to get to Sauron.

I also believe Frodo was the best hobbit for the job of ringbearer. Other hobbits may have been able to carry the ring but Frodo, due to how he got the ring, his personality and also his family line was best equiped to do this task. Smeagal was already corrupt so he was easier to twist. Though he did resist the ring more than any other race for he hid the ring instead of really using the power of it, but it drove him crazy over 500 years and that is a long time. Men fell much faster(Boromir). I also don't think Frodo failed completely. He couldn't destroy the ring at the end but so near the evil of sauron and the place of the rings making it must have been very powerfull and if it had a force of it's own it was using it to keep from being destroyed. frodo di all that was possible todestroy the ring, only Gollum's foolishness saved them.

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie · 12-03-2002, 12:59 AM

I think that the ring did not care who found it, just as long that it got closer to sauron. The ring had not counted on gollum hiding in the misty mountains with it for 500 years. It 'left' the Anduin because it neede to move, ironically, it didn't get very far. I agree with you that gollum did have some resistence to the ring. After all he was a hobbit. And I agree with you that he did not desire to use it for power but to keep it as his own. Gollum had something that you get from hanging around the outside of the shire. I think that it is greed. He did not have a greed for power, but a greed to aquire and keep what he wanted. That's why he hid in the misty mts. for 500 years and he never used it for power. I don't think the ring knew that gollum would hide for 500 years (or maybe it did but was just really patient) but since it turned out like that the ring needed to be found. I'm not sure if the ring planned it this way or if it was just chance, but Bilbo did find it. The ring slipped of gollum earlier, before Bilbo came, when gollum was trying to catch a small goblin to eat. Now I disagree with you when you say that the ring didn't want Bilbo to find it. I think it did no matter which way Bilbo foiund it- by chance or because of the ring. It could have been by chance. The ring could have coincidently slipped off gollum and coincidently got picked up by Bilbo. Or the ring could have been found on purpose. If the ring felt that it was hid for too long, it could have slipped off, hoping to be found by someone. When bilbo came, it could have somehow lured bilbo to it.

Anyways, this discussion is getting off topic from the original question so I think I'll continue this in another thread probably tomorrow. Look for it.

Sauron999 · 12-03-2002, 06:59 AM

While reading through the thread, something came to my mind.

Quote:

How then, did Smeagol fall under the power of the ring so fast. I know that he was an evil creature anyway but he did seem to go a bit crazy with his brother, killing is a bit extreme. Wouldn't it have been better to steal it at a later date?

To me it's clear that the ring "felt" Sauron rising again far away, and it wanted to be found (I think Gandalf says sth like that in "Shadows of the Past"), and it needed to get out of Anduin, that's why it chose Deagol to find it.

But wasn't it a big error of the ring that it chose Smeagol afterwards? I guess the ring didn't want Smeagol to go deep into Moria and spend such a long time there.
So what would have happened if the ring stayed with Deagol? Would Deagol leave his relatives too, but go somewhere nearer the Dark Lord? Please try to think about this: What happened if the ring chose Deagol instead of Smeagol (meaning Smeagol not killing Deagol and not taking the ring as his birthday present)?

Oliphaunt · 12-03-2002, 12:02 PM

Although Gollum was a mean character to start with, he has a resilience of his own. He had the ring for 500 years without fading. There's something to be said for that.

Keneldil the Polka-dot · 12-03-2002, 12:47 PM

Quote:

But wasn't it a big error of the ring that it chose Smeagol afterwards?

I don't think it was a mistake. Sauron had been defeated and the Ring cut from his hand. He was just a shadow after that. The Ring needed to wait somewhere until Sauron could regather himself.

Sauron999 · 12-03-2002, 03:16 PM

oliphaunt i think he didn't fade because his race was somewhat related to hobbits, and hobbits are very resistant as we see at bilbo. (though he only got the ring for sixty years).
Keneldil, that was a good point. I forgot that Sauron was defeatet at that time. Thanks [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

12-02-2002, 11:11 AM	#1
the real findorfin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 514	Gollum vs Other Hobbits It is said that Frodo was such a good ring bearer because he was a Hobbit, a race which has natural resilience to the Rings power. How then, did Smeagol fall under the power of the ring so fast. I know that he was an evil creature anyway but he did seem to go a bit crazy with his brother, killing is a bit extreme. Wouldn't it have been better to steal it at a later date? I would appreciate thoughts! __________________ Legends of Middle Earth

12-02-2002, 11:28 AM	#2
-Imrahil- Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Dol Amroth, upon the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 259	Your question is a good one and there is no definite answer. Tolkien mentioned that Smeagol was a bizarre creature even before he got the ring. He said he was interested in roots and beginning ect. He was not a normal, good-natured hobbit. He was slightly evil even before the ring came along. So naturally, the ring corrupted him faster. That is my idea but truly, I'm not sure. [ December 02, 2002: Message edited by: -Imrahil- ] __________________ My body is broken. I go to my fathers. And even in their mighty company I shall not now be ashamed. I felled the black serpent. A grim morn, and a glad day, and a golden sunset!

12-02-2002, 12:19 PM	#3
the real findorfin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 514	Thanks Imrahil (for both answer and compliment). I suppose evil is easier to corrupt. __________________ Legends of Middle Earth

12-02-2002, 03:48 PM	#4
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	I think that it wasn't hobbits that were risiliant, but Frodo. Other hobbits might have failed but Frodo, perhaps because of the maner of him getting the ring and his heart didn't. If you remember, Golum got the ring by killing someone - a bad start. Bilbo started his posession with pity. Frodo started because it was thrust upon him. __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

12-02-2002, 04:09 PM	#5
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	I don't think that Gollum was corrupted very much by the ring, he was already corrupt. The Ring only twisted and stretched him. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

12-02-2002, 06:03 PM	#6
Keneldil the Polka-dot Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 128	I agree with burrahobbit. Gollum possessed the seeds of his downfall before he had the Ring. Frodo also possessed the seeds of his downfall (he gave in at Mt. Doom) but they were a lot less to work with than Gollum's. [ December 02, 2002: Message edited by: Keneldil the Polka-dot ] __________________ "Trust in the ball Jake.....and throw yourself."

12-02-2002, 06:53 PM	#7
MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 573	I agree with Arwen Imladris. I don't think that Frodo was such a good ring bearer because he was a hobbit. I think that a lot of hobbits could have had a resilinece to the ring but my theory is that it was because they are simple. Hobbits' minds are hard to cloud because they are simple. It would be easier to confuse a human or any other race because they are either stupid (like trolls) or complex. Most hobbits in the shire were simple, simple because they did not deal with issues out of the shire. Their ignorance made it harder for the ring to confuse hobbits. I also have a theory that the ring was a separate character in lotr. I don't think that it was just an object or a tool. When I read lotr, I get the impression that the ring was a character. It couldn't physically interact in the environment like the other characters could. It couldn't walk or talk, but it could think. I think that it had a mind and its own personality. Maybe its personality wasn't really developed but I'd describe it in one word- evil. The ring could use its mind not to communicate but to trick and confuse and to even control ring bearers. It even used ring bearer's to get closer to sauron. It had the ability leech on to a ringbearer's mind, or it was like a virus that enters the body (in the ring's case, the mind) and take over. I think that it could predict how it would get to sauron. For example, the ring purposely slipped off of isildur's finger to avoid being brought to Gondor and then under counsel, where it would be decided that it must be destroyed. Or maybe it wanted revenge for sauron. Anyway's, the ring saw gollum as an opportunity to get closer to sauron. Now that you know my 2 theories, lets put them together. The ring needed to move. When it had the opportunity, it chose Deagol. It got out of the water and saw gollum. I think that it thought gollum would do better to move it or gollum would be easier to control. Now if hobbits are simple folk who have a good resiliance to the ring, how would it have worked on gollum? Simple, Smeagol and Deagol were some of the hobbits that lived by the river and liked to maybe have some adventures. If they lived closer to other or 'Big folk,' then they were most likely not as ignorant as the other hobbits. They probably got news of things in middle earth over the years. And if Smeagol's family lived there for a long time, then their family over the years might have lost its simplicity. So if gollum had been less simple and more complex, it was probably harder for gollum to resist the ring and easier for the ring to corrupt gollum. Hope that helps [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Do Not Touch -Willie

12-02-2002, 08:05 PM	#9
MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 573	Simple means a lot of things to me but it does not mean unintelligent. To me, it means the opposite of complicated, it means ignorant, young/underdeveloped, crude. That may sound kind of negative so here are some way's it sounds more positive- neat, undemanding, and clear. I do agree with you that hobbits did not desire power or dominion but only a good life and peace. I think that is a way that hobbits were simple also; since they were undemanding. You made a good point about the ring as a force instead of a separate character. However, I still believe in my idea that the ring is a character. But your point led me to another thought; maybe the ring is an extension of sauron. I think that since sauron and the ring were binded to each other this could make sense. Also, if it is an extension, it does make sense that when they are together, they are most powerful. I think that the ring had a mind of its own, but now it could be part of sauron's mind. And I don't think that sauron can telepathically communicate to the ring or something, so to me it makes sense if the ring's mind is part of sauron's mind but they think independently. Thanks for the reply and for sparking another idea. I'd like to hear a response to this one also. __________________ Do Not Touch -Willie

12-02-2002, 08:37 PM	#10
elfling Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: asheville,nc Posts: 86	I agree with you guys about the ring being an evil force of its own. It was said that it left Gollum in the caves and that was how bilbo foung it. Though I don't believe the ring wanted to be found by Bilbo but just wanted to get to Sauron. I also believe Frodo was the best hobbit for the job of ringbearer. Other hobbits may have been able to carry the ring but Frodo, due to how he got the ring, his personality and also his family line was best equiped to do this task. Smeagal was already corrupt so he was easier to twist. Though he did resist the ring more than any other race for he hid the ring instead of really using the power of it, but it drove him crazy over 500 years and that is a long time. Men fell much faster(Boromir). I also don't think Frodo failed completely. He couldn't destroy the ring at the end but so near the evil of sauron and the place of the rings making it must have been very powerfull and if it had a force of it's own it was using it to keep from being destroyed. frodo di all that was possible todestroy the ring, only Gollum's foolishness saved them. __________________ And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the morning and the night...All shall love me and despair!

12-03-2002, 12:59 AM	#11
MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 573	I think that the ring did not care who found it, just as long that it got closer to sauron. The ring had not counted on gollum hiding in the misty mountains with it for 500 years. It 'left' the Anduin because it neede to move, ironically, it didn't get very far. I agree with you that gollum did have some resistence to the ring. After all he was a hobbit. And I agree with you that he did not desire to use it for power but to keep it as his own. Gollum had something that you get from hanging around the outside of the shire. I think that it is greed. He did not have a greed for power, but a greed to aquire and keep what he wanted. That's why he hid in the misty mts. for 500 years and he never used it for power. I don't think the ring knew that gollum would hide for 500 years (or maybe it did but was just really patient) but since it turned out like that the ring needed to be found. I'm not sure if the ring planned it this way or if it was just chance, but Bilbo did find it. The ring slipped of gollum earlier, before Bilbo came, when gollum was trying to catch a small goblin to eat. Now I disagree with you when you say that the ring didn't want Bilbo to find it. I think it did no matter which way Bilbo foiund it- by chance or because of the ring. It could have been by chance. The ring could have coincidently slipped off gollum and coincidently got picked up by Bilbo. Or the ring could have been found on purpose. If the ring felt that it was hid for too long, it could have slipped off, hoping to be found by someone. When bilbo came, it could have somehow lured bilbo to it. Anyways, this discussion is getting off topic from the original question so I think I'll continue this in another thread probably tomorrow. Look for it. __________________ Do Not Touch -Willie

12-03-2002, 12:02 PM	#13
Oliphaunt Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 48	Although Gollum was a mean character to start with, he has a resilience of his own. He had the ring for 500 years without fading. There's something to be said for that.

12-03-2002, 03:16 PM	#15
Sauron999 Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Austria Posts: 29	oliphaunt i think he didn't fade because his race was somewhat related to hobbits, and hobbits are very resistant as we see at bilbo. (though he only got the ring for sixty years). Keneldil, that was a good point. I forgot that Sauron was defeatet at that time. Thanks [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Behold the Great Evil!