Religion of Men...

[Scott]

Alright, this topic goes out to the BDers who obviously have read the stories more closely than I have.

In the Silmarillion it is said that the peoples of Numenor built temples to and worshipped Iluvatar. I know that with Ar Pharazon's coming to power this practice certainly dwindled considerably, but what about when Elendil and his sons came to permanently dwell in Middle Earth. Did the men of ME start worshipping Iluvatar as well, or did they worship individual Maiar and Valar, or did they not even worship anyone at all?

The only real references that I have seen among the men of the third age and religion have to do with the white tree in Osgiliath and the few surviving Dunedain. Am I missing anything?
~Scott

[Bill Ferny]

Before they ate, Faramir and all his men turned and faced west in a moment of silence. Faramire signed to Frodo and Sam that they should do likewise.

“So we always do,” he said, as they sat down: “we look towards Númenor that was, and beyond to Elvenhome that is, and to that which is beyond Elvenhome and will ever be. Have you no such custom at meat?”

“No,” said Frodo, feeling strangely rustic and untutored. “But if we are guests, we bow to our host, and after we have eaten we rise and thank him.”

“That we do also,” said Faramir.

--LotR, IV, 5.

A reference to an obvious ritual, and thus a connection to a religion. What I have highlighted in bold face is an obvious reference to Eru. Tolkien, however, remains otherwise purposely reticent in regard to the religion of men.

[the witch king]

This is from of hearbs and stewed rabbit in The Two Towers

Ware! Ware! cried Damrod to his companion. 'may the Valar turn him aside! Mumak! Mumak!

I think this shows that the men of Gondor had some kind of faith in the Valar just like we would say 'god help me'

[alaklondewen]

This is from Letter #183:

In the LotR the conflict is not basically about 'Freedom', though that is naturally involved. It is about God, and His sole right to divine honour. The Eldar and the Numenoreans believed in The One, the true God, and held worship of any other person an abomination.

The men of Numenor worshiped Eru and no other.

[lindil]

The Letters [many references]
The Athrabeth ah Finrod Andreth [in Morgoth's Ring-HoME/X

The Silmarillion in general [but few specifics].

The Road goes Ever on, has an excellent little 'essay', on the devotional meanings behind A elberth Gilthoniel, and the High-Elves' pilgrimage to The White Towers.

Osanwe-Kenta less directly speaks of the spiritual faculties of Men, Elves and Ainur in regards to Morgoth's ability to decieve and corrupt.[you can order this from www.elvish.org for a mrere 2$ ]

Those are off the top of my head the primary references to men's [ or elves] religious practices and spiritual faculties.

An interesting tie-in with the real world is the poem 'Imram' of St. Brendan voyaging to 'Faerie' in HoME IX [Sauron defeated]


Also, no small point, is that Tolkien follows the distinction used in the Orthodox Church and Roman Catholicism of differentiating between asking a 'heavenly being' whether Vala- Angel or saint for help/intercession [acknowledging in humility that they may well have put less obstructions between God and themselves or have direct powers from God [by extension of Grace] and be able to aid one.

This is not however worship, which alone is due to God. There are specific theological terms used in greek [and probably Latin as well] that recognize these different aspects of heavenly interaction and Worship, Protestants however are less comfortable and historically rooted in all of this and in general do not follow the Ecumenical Council of the first Millenia of the Church which actually put any outside the Church who denies the grace of God within the Saints, and the appropriateness of our supplicating and venerating [not worshiping] the Saints and Angels. So Tolkien was imbedding a very important theological distinction within the primitive Theology of M-E. It is 'primitive' Monotheism yes, but not primitive protestant Monotheism.

And indeed As the Athrabeth and it's commentary show the seeds of the Trinity are already sown in the 'greater Silmarillion'.

[ March 30, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Scott]

Thanks for the replies so far, but I already knew about most of the stuff you guys mentioned. I knew that the Numenoriens worshipped Iluvatar as well as the men of earlier ages. I'm wondering more about the men of the third age and whether or not with the passing of the last of the Eldar into the Grey Havens ME would also lose the history and theologies of Eru and the Valar.

Thanks Bill, I had forgotten about that part in The Two Towers. I had always interpreted it more as a lament for fallen Numenor. The highlighted bold part does make your point though.

The method to my madness in asking this question was to ponder further the question of whether or not Tolkien intended to insinuate the idea that with time things and ideas such as religion (the original or true religion?) had and would continue to fade away out of the hearts of men. Maybe never to be truly regained after the path goes astray?

[Bill Ferny]

Interesting hypothesis, Scott. (Should I expect less from an Ohioan?) lindil, is there anything in the letters to support this? Off hand, I would think this very consistent with some of the primary themes.

[Iarhen]

This would mean that, in comparison with the Christian-Catholic religion, Morgoth was some sort of Satan... but, then, who would Sauron be?

I think that it could be that Morgoth was an angel of a higher plane (kinda like a Cherubim, who have the power to show themselves as animal, man or other forms, including pure light), and Sauron was an angel of a lesser plane (some sort of an archangel or something)...

This is interesting.

[Maerbenn]

Isn't the bold in Bill Ferny's quote a reference to Valmar (Valimar), while 'Elvenhome' is to Eldamar?

[Scott]

Iarhen,
Morgoth could definitely represent a sort of fallen or Satanic being. I definitely think that whether Tolkien intended to do so or not, many of the religious aspects of his mythologies come directly from other popular (i.e. Catholic) beliefs. For example, the Ainulindale mirrors Milton's view of the creation of the universe through choirs of sound, Mandos acts as a sort of Purgatory (such as in Dante's La Divina Comedia), and the war between the good Valar and Morgoth under the total planning of Eru all have strong ties with common "pop" religion.
It makes you wonder what Tolkien really wanted his readers to get out of all of it.
~Scott