Corruption and Evil... leading to power loss? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Iarhen · 03-20-2003, 10:50 AM

We can see, both in the Silmarillion with Melkor and in the LOTR with Sauron, that both the Dark Lords were terrible in might, but their power diminished with the passing of time.

Melkor first. From being the most powerful of the Valar, his power diminished to a point where he was hurt by Fingolfin, he was enchanted by Luthien and was utterly defeated... Why? I think I remember Tolkien saying that because of his corruption (along the extertions, the will he had to place forth among his servants, etc) his power diminished.

That's the same that happened with Sauron. From being the most powerful soldier of Morgoth, he is destroyed by the mere melting of his Ring. His corruption obviously affected his maiar-powers, and utterly diminished to a point where an elf was able to read his mind (Galadriel). Besides, if his Boss Morgoth suffered that loss, being more powerful than Sauron, I pressume that Sauron suffered the same doom.

What do you think?

Mornie Alantie · 03-20-2003, 10:57 AM

Yah, with the corruption came a more limited evil power. For one, nothing was created to be evil. So they had to use up their own to create it. I wouldn't say that him being wounded by Fingolfin or enchanted by Luthian had anything to do with being lesser power. Even Mandos was affected by the songs of Luthian. The reason Sauron was destroyed when the ring was, is that he put all his spirit and power into the ring so it could control all the other rings.

Iarhen · 03-20-2003, 11:05 AM

Maybe, another reason, was that they placed forth their power to do evil deeds... but because of what Eru said (that their evil deeds would turn out in benefit for the creation and for good) even though they tried to do evil, in the end it turned good...

Im seeing it like their effectiveness with their power reduced when they used it for evil purposes, since the results they were searching for were not achieved.

Inderjit Sanghera · 03-20-2003, 11:44 AM

1. If you want to learn more about the dissemation of Melkor's pwers, into Arda and his Orcs, then read 'HoME 10; Morgoths Ring'.

Quote:

From being the most powerful soldier of Morgoth, he is destroyed by the mere melting of his Ring.

Mere melting of his ring? Hm....that ring contained a LOT of his inhernet power. Sauron was more powerful due to his alliegance to Melkor because Melkor seemingly enjoeyed giving away power to his minions.

Quote:

From being the most powerful soldier of Morgoth

I'm confused my the term 'soldier'. Don't you mean servant? Strength in battle doesn't always equate to power. For example, Tulkas was 'stronger' then Manwe, battle-wise, but not his match in terms of power.

lord of dor-lomin · 03-20-2003, 01:08 PM

Sauron with the ring was still extremely powerful. I recall someone saying in LOTR (possibly Gandalf) that if he regained the ring his victory would be "swift and complete".

Morgoth lost some of his power because he drained himself on things like Ungoliant, dragons, and so on.

I don't recall reading that their diminished power had anything to do with them being evil.

lathspell · 03-20-2003, 01:11 PM

The corruption in itself does not reduce the power of someone. The things they did, being evil, was what made them less powerful. Morgoth was corrupting orcs, and in the Silmarillion it says that this took alot of his power. Sauron made the One Ring and put alot of his power into it. Morgoth lost the part of power forever, but it changed into his servants. Sauron held his power, until he lost the Ring in the battle with the Last Alliance.

So, both of them were evil as powerful as good... but when they did put forth their in people or things, they weakened.

Meoshi · 03-20-2003, 05:26 PM

Perhaps all of the Ainur used up their power in their actions(not all of their actions, things like making the two trees, enchanting Vingilot, altering their forms), the difference being that the Valar and loyal Maiar had the support of the permanent power source(Eru), whereas Melkor had to use up his own large but limited supply of power.

This is a theory with holes in it, I'll have to admit. After all, Yavanna only had enough power to make one set of Two Trees. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

**lindil** · 03-21-2003, 07:53 AM

In the case of Yavanna [ and of Feanor] I am not convinced that it was a case of power alone, there also must have been present a certain zeal, inspiration [personal and probably Divine - from Eru] and timing tied to a specific place and time.

Sort of like, I would guess, times whn you have worked ofr hours perhaps on a post or stry or something and for got to save it and it gets lost. poof, all of theat work gone.

Often if it is not obligatory [and sometimes even of it is!] one will simply feel overwhelmed and desireless in regards to the lost work. I imagine there was an aspect of that (times say 1,ooo) in feanor's case.

With Yavanna, the 2 trees were made at a very specific time in the History of Arda, and I surmise that even if she had wanted to she would not have had a blessing from Eru or Manwe to make another pair. THeir job was, sadly, done.

03-20-2003, 10:50 AM	#1
Iarhen Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Laurelindorenan Posts: 225	Corruption and Evil... leading to power loss? We can see, both in the Silmarillion with Melkor and in the LOTR with Sauron, that both the Dark Lords were terrible in might, but their power diminished with the passing of time. Melkor first. From being the most powerful of the Valar, his power diminished to a point where he was hurt by Fingolfin, he was enchanted by Luthien and was utterly defeated... Why? I think I remember Tolkien saying that because of his corruption (along the extertions, the will he had to place forth among his servants, etc) his power diminished. That's the same that happened with Sauron. From being the most powerful soldier of Morgoth, he is destroyed by the mere melting of his Ring. His corruption obviously affected his maiar-powers, and utterly diminished to a point where an elf was able to read his mind (Galadriel). Besides, if his Boss Morgoth suffered that loss, being more powerful than Sauron, I pressume that Sauron suffered the same doom. What do you think? __________________ "In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen! Not dark but beatiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!" --- Galadriel when tempted by the One Ring.

03-20-2003, 10:57 AM	#2
Mornie Alantie Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Somewhere above earth cause people say i should come down to it Posts: 226	Yah, with the corruption came a more limited evil power. For one, nothing was created to be evil. So they had to use up their own to create it. I wouldn't say that him being wounded by Fingolfin or enchanted by Luthian had anything to do with being lesser power. Even Mandos was affected by the songs of Luthian. The reason Sauron was destroyed when the ring was, is that he put all his spirit and power into the ring so it could control all the other rings. __________________ Instead of pepper spray, you pack a glass bottle and scream "Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima!!!" at muggers.

03-20-2003, 11:05 AM	#3
Iarhen Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Laurelindorenan Posts: 225	Maybe, another reason, was that they placed forth their power to do evil deeds... but because of what Eru said (that their evil deeds would turn out in benefit for the creation and for good) even though they tried to do evil, in the end it turned good... Im seeing it like their effectiveness with their power reduced when they used it for evil purposes, since the results they were searching for were not achieved. __________________ "In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen! Not dark but beatiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!" --- Galadriel when tempted by the One Ring.

03-20-2003, 01:08 PM	#5
lord of dor-lomin Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: dor-lomin, of course Posts: 167	Sauron with the ring was still extremely powerful. I recall someone saying in LOTR (possibly Gandalf) that if he regained the ring his victory would be "swift and complete". Morgoth lost some of his power because he drained himself on things like Ungoliant, dragons, and so on. I don't recall reading that their diminished power had anything to do with them being evil. __________________ I used to be indecisive. Now, I'm not so sure.

03-20-2003, 01:11 PM	#6
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	The corruption in itself does not reduce the power of someone. The things they did, being evil, was what made them less powerful. Morgoth was corrupting orcs, and in the Silmarillion it says that this took alot of his power. Sauron made the One Ring and put alot of his power into it. Morgoth lost the part of power forever, but it changed into his servants. Sauron held his power, until he lost the Ring in the battle with the Last Alliance. So, both of them were evil as powerful as good... but when they did put forth their in people or things, they weakened. __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

03-20-2003, 05:26 PM	#7
Meoshi Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Atop the peak of Kalormë Posts: 163	Perhaps all of the Ainur used up their power in their actions(not all of their actions, things like making the two trees, enchanting Vingilot, altering their forms), the difference being that the Valar and loyal Maiar had the support of the permanent power source(Eru), whereas Melkor had to use up his own large but limited supply of power. This is a theory with holes in it, I'll have to admit. After all, Yavanna only had enough power to make one set of Two Trees. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

03-21-2003, 07:53 AM	#8
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	In the case of Yavanna [ and of Feanor] I am not convinced that it was a case of power alone, there also must have been present a certain zeal, inspiration [personal and probably Divine - from Eru] and timing tied to a specific place and time. Sort of like, I would guess, times whn you have worked ofr hours perhaps on a post or stry or something and for got to save it and it gets lost. poof, all of theat work gone. Often if it is not obligatory [and sometimes even of it is!] one will simply feel overwhelmed and desireless in regards to the lost work. I imagine there was an aspect of that (times say 1,ooo) in feanor's case. With Yavanna, the 2 trees were made at a very specific time in the History of Arda, and I surmise that even if she had wanted to she would not have had a blessing from Eru or Manwe to make another pair. THeir job was, sadly, done. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.