Luthien & Galadriel - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Iarhen · 03-19-2003, 08:56 AM

Both are accounted to be great elves. One as the greatest of the Eldar and the other one as the greatest of the Noldor.

We know that Luthien was the daughter of an elf and a maia. And Galadriel was 3/4 Noldor and 1/3 vanyar. So, in terms of ratial power, Luthien has the upper hand.

But in terms of wisdom and learning, I think I can see a difference and a disagreement with Tolkien. Even though Luthien had a lot of power, Galadriel was born before her, and remained in Middle Earth, learning and acquiring more wisdom, till she departed to Valinor at the end of the Third Age of M.E.

My question is this: Galadriel learneda a lot when she was in Valinor. Her might and wisdom increased by the hard times she faced: crossing the Helcarxe (I cant remember if thats the correct spelling ot the word), Melian's training, Nenya, etc.

Is it a possibility that Galadriel is the most powerful elf that ever walked on Middle Earth? Since Luthien departed so soon, and Galadriel stayed here so long... I think the answer to this question depends on the solution to the thread that asks if elves grew in power as the years passed by... I think they do, because they acquire more knowledge, and knowledge is power.

Galadriel was older, and walked on M.E. a lot more time than Luthien. What do you think?

Inderjit Sanghera · 03-19-2003, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Even though Luthien had a lot of power, Galadriel was born before

Luthien was considerably older then Galadriel. Luthien was born in the Valinorean year 1200, 10 years after Fingolfin, third of Finwe's children and Finarfin, was born in 1230 and Galadriel in 1362.

Was Galadriel the most powerful elf to ever walk on M-E? After Luthien, and maybe Feanor yes. Certainly, after she refused the ring, and got the pardon of the Valar, we can see that her wisdom had blossomed and that she is refusing the dreams of her impetous youth.

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-19-2003, 10:08 AM

Iarhen, do you like the character of Galadriel by any chance? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Maikadilwen · 03-19-2003, 10:11 AM

Quote:

And Galadriel was 3/4 Noldor and 1/3 vanyar.

Actually, she was 1/4 Noldo, 1/4 Vanya and 1/2 Teleri.

MallornLeaf · 03-19-2003, 10:42 AM

I would have to agree that Galadriel was wiser than Luthien--Luthien was ruled by her emotions and married a man! She also spent far less time in middle earth.

But I don't think I would go so far as to say that Galadriel was the wisest elf in Middle Earth. Consider Feanor, Gil-Galad, Elrond, etc.

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-19-2003, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Luthien ... married a man!

God forbid! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Seriously, though, he was not just any old man. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[ March 19, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

Legolas · 03-19-2003, 01:19 PM

Someone is obsessed.

Iarhen · 03-19-2003, 07:20 PM

Yeah! Im all about her since I read LOTR... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

But again, Ill have to contest you. I would have to say that, Cirdan aside, Galadriel was wiser than Gil Galad or Elrond... And Feanor is absolutely out of the question, since Tolkien stated that both were the greatest of the Noldor (Galadriel and Feanor), "although she was wiser than he".

[ March 19, 2003: Message edited by: Iarhen ]

Luthien_ Tinuviel · 03-19-2003, 07:41 PM

Who is to say that Luthien did not also receive instruction from her mother? It is debatable who would be more powerful, Galadriel aided by Nenya or Luthien aided by her mother. My guess would be Luthien, since the Three Rings were dependent upon the One.

Also, who would be more powerful without any outside help? I would still say Luthien, since wisdom isn't everything, and while Luthien could escape from Hirilorn on her own, Galadriel could not maintain her realm without Nenya (maybe that's just me).

Luthien was certainly the most beautiful, but Galadriel was definately second (this is stated in Tolkien text somewhere, I forget where).

And lastly, who is to say that emotions are not powerful things? saying that Luthien followed her emotions is not necessarily a bad thing. When someone is mad they tend to have more physical strength, and wrath is an emotion. It is Luthien and Beren's love for each other which helped to overthrow Tol-in-Gaurhoth and steal a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown, let alone kill Carcaroth and bring back Beren from the dead, allowing them to become the first elf and man to marry each other.

I believe that Luthien was the more powerful of the two elves, but maybe I'm just biased. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Mornie Alantie · 03-19-2003, 08:11 PM

My opinion is that Galadriel at the time may not have been as wise, but by the end of the third age was most likely wiser. But I must say that for the most part, Luthien was more powerful.

You have to look into the many different categories that power and wisdom would fall into, for one, Luthien had a powerful voice. But Galadriel was wise and powerful enough to reject the ring. I am not sure how else Tolkien described her but he said that Luthian was the fairest not the wisest or most powerful. But being part Maia and part elf Im sure she had a good deal of both.

Lathriel · 03-19-2003, 11:09 PM

Personally I think Luthien and Galadriel were equally powerful. They both had different qualities but if all added up together I am sure you wuold find them at the same level of wisdom and power.
Luthien helped Beren in getting one Silmaril and Galadriel was able to resist the one ring.

lord of dor-lomin · 03-20-2003, 01:07 AM

I think there's a difference between being "powerful" and being "great". When Tolkien says that "__ was the greatest of the __" I think he means "greatest" (that's what he said after all), not the most powerful.

Greatness would include a lot of things like goodness, nobility, and wisdom.

Power, however, is a bit different. Goodness and nobility don't matter as much, if at all. (just look at Morgoth/Sauron, zero goodness, yet undeniably very powerful) Also, power wouldn't weigh wisdom as heavily as sheer knowledge. Will power would be included, as well as the ability to master other's will. Not only would mastery over mind be important, but also mastery over matter. The number of skills a person has and how advanced those skills are would count greatly too. I also believe that combat ability would have an important place.

Using this sort of definition of power (vast knowledge, strong will, great skill, mastery over mind and matter, ability in battle), it seems to me that a certain elf besides Galadriel and Luthien pops into mind. (hint: his name starts with an F)

[ March 20, 2003: Message edited by: lord of dor-lomin ]

InklingElf · 03-20-2003, 06:39 PM

Ahh another debate between Magic and Power [in the lines of Luthien and Galadriel of course].

lord of dor-lomin: would that "F" be Finduilas? It's a guess [I don't have my books handy right now].

lord of dor-lomin · 03-21-2003, 02:41 AM

Finduilas? No.

Feanor is who I had in mind.

InklingElf · 03-21-2003, 09:37 AM

:snaps her fingers: crabs... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I won't turn this thread into a games thread so thanks again.

03-19-2003, 08:56 AM	#1
Iarhen Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Laurelindorenan Posts: 225	Luthien & Galadriel Both are accounted to be great elves. One as the greatest of the Eldar and the other one as the greatest of the Noldor. We know that Luthien was the daughter of an elf and a maia. And Galadriel was 3/4 Noldor and 1/3 vanyar. So, in terms of ratial power, Luthien has the upper hand. But in terms of wisdom and learning, I think I can see a difference and a disagreement with Tolkien. Even though Luthien had a lot of power, Galadriel was born before her, and remained in Middle Earth, learning and acquiring more wisdom, till she departed to Valinor at the end of the Third Age of M.E. My question is this: Galadriel learneda a lot when she was in Valinor. Her might and wisdom increased by the hard times she faced: crossing the Helcarxe (I cant remember if thats the correct spelling ot the word), Melian's training, Nenya, etc. Is it a possibility that Galadriel is the most powerful elf that ever walked on Middle Earth? Since Luthien departed so soon, and Galadriel stayed here so long... I think the answer to this question depends on the solution to the thread that asks if elves grew in power as the years passed by... I think they do, because they acquire more knowledge, and knowledge is power. Galadriel was older, and walked on M.E. a lot more time than Luthien. What do you think? __________________ "In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen! Not dark but beatiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!" --- Galadriel when tempted by the One Ring.

03-19-2003, 10:08 AM	#3
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	Iarhen, do you like the character of Galadriel by any chance? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

03-19-2003, 10:42 AM	#5
MallornLeaf Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2002 Location: who cares? Posts: 76	I would have to agree that Galadriel was wiser than Luthien--Luthien was ruled by her emotions and married a man! She also spent far less time in middle earth. But I don't think I would go so far as to say that Galadriel was the wisest elf in Middle Earth. Consider Feanor, Gil-Galad, Elrond, etc. __________________ ". . . All we must decide is what to do with the time that is given us." "I pass the test, I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel."

03-19-2003, 01:19 PM	#7
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Someone is obsessed. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

03-19-2003, 07:20 PM	#8
Iarhen Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Laurelindorenan Posts: 225	Yeah! Im all about her since I read LOTR... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] But again, Ill have to contest you. I would have to say that, Cirdan aside, Galadriel was wiser than Gil Galad or Elrond... And Feanor is absolutely out of the question, since Tolkien stated that both were the greatest of the Noldor (Galadriel and Feanor), "although she was wiser than he". [ March 19, 2003: Message edited by: Iarhen ] __________________ "In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen! Not dark but beatiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!" --- Galadriel when tempted by the One Ring.

03-19-2003, 07:41 PM	#9
Luthien_ Tinuviel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: A very lovely tree-hut in the Chunnel. Posts: 804	Who is to say that Luthien did not also receive instruction from her mother? It is debatable who would be more powerful, Galadriel aided by Nenya or Luthien aided by her mother. My guess would be Luthien, since the Three Rings were dependent upon the One. Also, who would be more powerful without any outside help? I would still say Luthien, since wisdom isn't everything, and while Luthien could escape from Hirilorn on her own, Galadriel could not maintain her realm without Nenya (maybe that's just me). Luthien was certainly the most beautiful, but Galadriel was definately second (this is stated in Tolkien text somewhere, I forget where). And lastly, who is to say that emotions are not powerful things? saying that Luthien followed her emotions is not necessarily a bad thing. When someone is mad they tend to have more physical strength, and wrath is an emotion. It is Luthien and Beren's love for each other which helped to overthrow Tol-in-Gaurhoth and steal a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown, let alone kill Carcaroth and bring back Beren from the dead, allowing them to become the first elf and man to marry each other. I believe that Luthien was the more powerful of the two elves, but maybe I'm just biased. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ I am a nineteen-year-old nomad photographer who owns a lemonade stand. You know what? I love Mip.

03-19-2003, 08:11 PM	#10
Mornie Alantie Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Somewhere above earth cause people say i should come down to it Posts: 226	My opinion is that Galadriel at the time may not have been as wise, but by the end of the third age was most likely wiser. But I must say that for the most part, Luthien was more powerful. You have to look into the many different categories that power and wisdom would fall into, for one, Luthien had a powerful voice. But Galadriel was wise and powerful enough to reject the ring. I am not sure how else Tolkien described her but he said that Luthian was the fairest not the wisest or most powerful. But being part Maia and part elf Im sure she had a good deal of both. __________________ Instead of pepper spray, you pack a glass bottle and scream "Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima!!!" at muggers.

03-19-2003, 11:09 PM	#11
Lathriel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME) Posts: 612	Personally I think Luthien and Galadriel were equally powerful. They both had different qualities but if all added up together I am sure you wuold find them at the same level of wisdom and power. Luthien helped Beren in getting one Silmaril and Galadriel was able to resist the one ring. __________________ Back again

03-20-2003, 01:07 AM	#12
lord of dor-lomin Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: dor-lomin, of course Posts: 167	I think there's a difference between being "powerful" and being "great". When Tolkien says that "__ was the greatest of the __" I think he means "greatest" (that's what he said after all), not the most powerful. Greatness would include a lot of things like goodness, nobility, and wisdom. Power, however, is a bit different. Goodness and nobility don't matter as much, if at all. (just look at Morgoth/Sauron, zero goodness, yet undeniably very powerful) Also, power wouldn't weigh wisdom as heavily as sheer knowledge. Will power would be included, as well as the ability to master other's will. Not only would mastery over mind be important, but also mastery over matter. The number of skills a person has and how advanced those skills are would count greatly too. I also believe that combat ability would have an important place. Using this sort of definition of power (vast knowledge, strong will, great skill, mastery over mind and matter, ability in battle), it seems to me that a certain elf besides Galadriel and Luthien pops into mind. (hint: his name starts with an F) [ March 20, 2003: Message edited by: lord of dor-lomin ] __________________ I used to be indecisive. Now, I'm not so sure.

03-20-2003, 06:39 PM	#13
InklingElf Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 402	Ahh another debate between Magic and Power [in the lines of Luthien and Galadriel of course]. lord of dor-lomin: would that "F" be Finduilas? It's a guess [I don't have my books handy right now].

03-21-2003, 02:41 AM	#14
lord of dor-lomin Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: dor-lomin, of course Posts: 167	Finduilas? No. Feanor is who I had in mind. __________________ I used to be indecisive. Now, I'm not so sure.

03-21-2003, 09:37 AM	#15
InklingElf Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 402	:snaps her fingers: crabs... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I won't turn this thread into a games thread so thanks again.