Tol-in-Gaurhoth CXV: On the Borders of Mirkwood Planning Thread

[Boromir88]

It is the TA before the events in the Lord of the Rings. A group of mannish settlers have built a town in the southern end of Mirkwood. The woods folk haven't lived here long, before it has become invaded by werewolves intent on wiping out the village.

Victory Conditions
-Villagers wins if they eliminate all werewolves from their village
-Werewolves win if they equal the number of Villagers with their own

The Threads and Voting

-Game Thread for the Living players. Where people discuss and vote during the DAY phase for one person to be lynched. During the Night phase, the Game Thread is silent.
-Dead Thread for all deceased players. During the DAY phase the deceased players discuss and vote for someone in the Game Thread to be their Medium/representative.
All dead players may continue discussing events during the NIGHT phase.
-Dead werewolves may privately communicate with themselves during the NIGHT phase only. Dead werewolves can never communicate with any Living werewolves.

-No roles or players exist in both threads. Once deceased, it remains so. The dead may view the Game Thread, but can not post in it. The Living under no circumstances can view or post in the Dead thread.

-Make your vote on a separate line (with one empty line both over and under it). Use the traditional form:

++ Boro

To make it look like that (to make it “highlighted”), bold the vote and then change the letter B in square brackets into the word: highlight

The Game Thread players vote for one person to lynch during the DAY phase. Votes are not retractable in the Game Thread. They are set in stone.
-The player with the most votes goes to the gallows and their role revealed in the Narration.
-in the event of a tie, the player who received the most number of votes first is the player lynched (coincidentally I realize why Nog made this rule, because in my last WW game, there was a "get the last vote flurry" in the last day or so, because everyone knew everybody's role pretty much :P. So I'm going with it.)

The Dead Thread During the DAY the dead vote for one person in the Game Thread to be their Medium/representative on that day. They may choose the same person to be their Medium for as many days in a row as they wish.

If a Medium is selected their vote will count as 2 in a lynch.
If a Medium is not selected it means there was too much division amongst the dead, and no one's vote in the Game thread is doubled.

There are retractable votes in the Dead thread to help them better form a consensus. There is no limit to the number of times a player can retract their vote. But once the majority+ threshold is reached voting for the Medium is over. The person who reached the required vote automatically becomes the Medium for that day.

A majority+ means if there are an even number of dead players, they need 1 more than half for a Medium to be chosen. If there is a tie, or no one reached the threshold no Medium is chosen on that day.

The Medium will be explicitly revealed in the end of day narration. If there was no Medium, it will also be revealed in the narration.

To retract your vote for the medium:

--Boro

**Deadlines on voting for both threads is 10pm GMT (6pm EST)**

The Roles

4 Wolves (1 of them the Nightmare Wolf)
1 Cobbler

1 Seer
1 Ranger
1 Beast Hunter
8+ Villagers

Werewolves (4)- choose 1 person every night to kill until the number of villagers equals their own. They can communicate privately during the NIGHT phase. Living wolves can not privately communicate with dead wolves, or vice versa.

Nightmare Werewolf- 1 of the 4 wolves is a nightmare wolf. It will be revealed to the entire pack who the NW is. If the NW dies it will be revealed in the narration that it was the NW that died. When they die the NW can choose 1 living player to "haunt" each night. The NW invades the player's dreams during that night. If the player is a gifted, their special abilities are blocked that night.

-The NW does not have to choose a player to haunt every night. Once dead, they have this ability through the duration of the game and can not lose it.
-The NW can not find out anyone's roles. They only know if they choose a player to haunt, they will be successful as there is no power in the Village to stop the NW's ability.
-The NW can not choose the same person to haunt 2 nights in a row
-Other dead werewolves can communicate privately with the NW during the NIGHT phase to help determine a victim (or that there is no victim that night)
-Any player, regardless of role, is informed if they were the target of the NW's haunts

Cobbler (1)- Is counted as an ordinary villager, but desires the werewolves victory. They do not know who the wolves are and can not privately talk to any of them.

Seer (1)- chooses 1 person to dream of and discover their identity each night. If the Seer dreams the Cobbler, they will only see the cobbler as an "ordinary villager." If a victim of the NW's haunts, they will receive a PM stating their dream was invaded by the NW and were unable to uncover the role of person they dreamed.

Ranger (1)- chooses 1 person to protect from the werewolves kill each night. The Ranger can not protect themselves and can not choose to protect the same person 2 nights in a row. If a victim of the NW's haunt, the ranger will receive a PM stating they were frozen by a horrible nightmare and their protection failed.

Beast Hunter (1)- The BH sets a booby trap near 1 person's location each night in hopes that the trap will catch and kill a werewolf. The BH may put the trap near themself, but can not set it near themself or the same person 2 nights in a row. If victim of the NW's haunting, the BH receives a PM stating they were frozen by a horrible nightmare and could not set their booby trap that night.

The sequence of events for this role:

BH sets a trap nearby Boro's location
Werewolves choose to kill Boro
Boro is killed, and becoming careless in celebration for the kill, one werewolf sets off, is caught and killed in the trap.

In the event the Ranger and BH are both "protecting" Boro, and the werewolves choose to kill Boro the same night. The Ranger stops the kill. The BH's trap was not triggered and so no werewolf dies.

This is a 1-trap Beast Hunter. If successfully trapping a werewolf, the pack become more cautious and are able to sniff out/disable any more traps set. The BH thus becomes an ordinary villager for the remainder of the game.

**The werewolves can PM the mod which one of them gets caught in the trap. If I do not have a choice from the werewolves, I will put the names in a randomizer. Click randomize 10 times and whichever name is first is the werewolf that dies**

-If lynched only the BH dies

Villager (8+)- vote to lynch 1 person suspected of lycanthropy each day. If one is chosen as a victim of the NW's haunts, they will receive a PM stating they had a terrible nightmare.

Miscellaneous

-Any reveal that proves a player's role such as posting a PM from me or other players, or directly stating you received a PM from me or anyone else that proves your role will result in mod fire. Player removed from the game and unable to contribute in the Dead Thread.
-Moderator discretion: Any Living player who does not vote in a lynch 2 nights in a row may be mod-fired. I'm usually pretty flexible here. Emergencies happen and you may not have the time you thought when originally signing up. Just send me a PM and we can discuss the best way to proceed. I will accept a ++No Vote as a person casting a vote.
-Participation and voting in the Dead thread is completely voluntary.

The Players

A Little Green
Blind Guardian
Brinniel
Huinesoron
Kath
Legate of Amon Lanc
Loslote
Macalaure
Nogrod
Nilpaurion Felagund
Pitchwife
Rikae
satansaloser2005
Shastanis Althreduin
Thinlomien
Wilwarin538


Night 1 will begin June 3rd 10pm GMT
Sign-ups can continue until then.

[Galadriel55]

The Beast Hunter is like a cross between a Hunter and a Ranger. I agree that it's too powerful a figure in a small (normal sized?) village. Normally a successful Ranger pick results in a "known" living innocent, whereas the BH's successful pick results always in a dead wolf, which is more powerful than the Hunter can get.

What happens if the BH and the Ranger target the same person? The innocent lives, but a wolf dies?

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

The Beast Hunter is like a cross between a Hunter and a Ranger. I agree that it's too powerful a figure in a small (normal sized?) village. Normally a successful Ranger pick results in a "known" living innocent, whereas the BH's successful pick results always in a dead wolf, which is more powerful than the Hunter can get.

What happens if the BH and the Ranger target the same person? The innocent lives, but a wolf dies?

From what I've read about the role and it's sequence of events.

BH sets a booby trap around Person X.

Wolves target and kill Person X.

In their celebration/joy at a successful kill the wolves are not very careful and one of them triggers the trap, is caught and killed in it.

After one of their own is caught in a booby trap, the wolves proceed more carefully in future kills and sniff out/disable any more traps.

So in the event you describe, I would say the sequence would go. The Ranger stopped the wolves kill. The BH's trap was never triggered and no wolf dies.

[A Little Green]

Do you take signups already? If you do please count me in!

I really like the Beast Hunter idea. I agree it would require a larger village, but then, I'm guessing we'll have a lot of people with empty calendars over the summer

The nightmare wolf sounds interesting too - although the obvious question is whether s/he can haunt the same person multiple Nights in a row. I'm imagining a scenario where the dead wolf has figured out who the Seer is and proceeds to block all further Seer dreams for the entirety of the game. Also do all dead wolves become individual nightmare wolves, or is there only one nightmare wolf pack? (Additionally interesting game dynamics-wise is the possibility of ordos "revealing" that they were targeted by a nightmare wolf, thus giving the village known innocents - or prompting fake nightmare reveals and a massive headache for all concerned )

[Rikae]

Please sign me up!

Originally Posted by Boro

send a PM to the villager and say they had been haunted by the spirit of a dead wolf.

I quite like this, because it gives that villager a small, but potentially useful, piece of information. Just knowing you attracted a wolf's attention can spark a whole new train of thought.

Is the nightmare wolf a specific wolf or the result of discussion and voting among the dead pack?

[Loslote]

Thanks for modding Boro! I like the setting, and the special roles sound interesting. I'm excited for this game!

I like the idea of the BH in a larger village, I agree with the 16 player threshold.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

(Additionally interesting game dynamics-wise is the possibility of ordos "revealing" that they were targeted by a nightmare wolf, thus giving the village known innocents - or prompting fake nightmare reveals and a massive headache for all concerned )

That occurred to me as well. I think having possibly a known innocent every Night is too powerful - what if only Gifteds are told that they were targeted? Also, what if only one of the wolves has the Nightmare Wolf role? Then the wolves might have to plan around "if one of us dies, it should be NW", and the village would have an extra twist to try to figure out if the wolves throw the NW under the bus.

[Huinesoron]

Assorted thoughts:

-If you want to avoid randomness, the trap could kill whichever wolf sends the night-kill PM. That lets the wolves choose who to sacrifice, rather than putting a potentially game-changing effect in the hands of a non-player (the mod/RNG).

-If you wanted to revisit your original idea at some point (the role-revealing gifted one), you could combine it with the one-shot power idea: everyone has an ability, but you can only use it once/twice/etc. It would probably require a lot of balancing work, though.

-The Nightmare Wolf sounds heavily unbalanced - but I'm not sure which way! The wolves get two shots per night to take out the Seer (one permanent, one temporary), but the villagers can theoretically clear someone every day. I think not letting ordos know they were nightmared would probably swing the balance too far - it would also mean the Gifted had even more information, so you're back into Gifted vs Wolf (+ bystanders) territory. As originally written, though, the two effects may balance out?

-I think the Medium as written looks pretty solid.

hS

[Loslote]

Also, I suppose anyone who claims to have been visited by the NW isn't actually a known innocent. The wolves could arrange a code - the NW doesn't use their power if one of their packmates says the word "purple", then the wolf who said "purple" claims to have been visited. So it's a little less powerful than I had initially thought.

[Blind Guardian]

I think your ideas sound interesting. Sign me up!

So there's no Medium on day One (since no one is dead [except the mod])
And no Medium on day Two (since only one person is dead - most likely)
And there might not be a Medium on day Three (in the case of a tie).
And there's no guarantee that a Wolf will be killed on the first few days either.

Would there be a random Medium or just no Medium on the first two or so days?

I'm intending to allow the potential for a dead cobbler, or dead wolf to have a little more impact in either choosing or stopping a Medium.

Would the Nightmare Wolf not be able to stop the Medium (to prevent them from being too powerful)? Would the other Wolves know who the NW is?


Sorry if my post is a little naive. I've been reading through some old games but they're LONG and I'm not done yet.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Blind Guardian

And no Medium on day Two (since only one person is dead - most likely)

There will be 2 people, the first from D1 and the second from N2 (unless Ranger save).

And there might not be a Medium on day Three (in the case of a tie).

Or any Day from that matter. From what I understood, a Medium vote requires that over 50% of the Dead Thread votes for them. I.e. even if there are 10 dead people, but their votes are split 4/3/3, there will not be a medium (because in this case you need a minimum of 6 votes).

Originally Posted by BG

And there's no guarantee that a Wolf will be killed on the first few days either.

That would make a formidable pack.

Originally Posted by BG

Would there be a random Medium or just no Medium on the first two or so days?

I think no Medium. Having a random Medium defeats the point of achieving a majority+ vote, which gives the village certain info. If the Medium is random, that info is lost - in fact, the village doesn't even know if the vote is from the GT or if it's randomized.

Originally Posted by BG

Would the Nightmare Wolf not be able to stop the Medium (to prevent them from being too powerful)?

The NW acts at Night on gifted roles. They do not act during the Day. Also, the Medium is not a permanent role, but rather a title that gets voted to a different person every Day. That person doesn't have a special power they are in charge of, their vote just counts twice.

Originally Posted by BG

Would the other Wolves know who the NW is?

I think that's still in the air. Is the NW a predetermined role, or is it the first (or second) wolf to die, or do all dead wolves PM amongst themselves and send a collective pick?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

-If you want to avoid randomness, the trap could kill whichever wolf sends the night-kill PM. That lets the wolves choose who to sacrifice, rather than putting a potentially game-changing effect in the hands of a non-player (the mod/RNG).

Or, taking time zones into consideration, the wolves could specify in their PM who they would like to sacrifice, regardless of who sends it.

Originally Posted by HS

-If you wanted to revisit your original idea at some point (the role-revealing gifted one), you could combine it with the one-shot power idea: everyone has an ability, but you can only use it once/twice/etc. It would probably require a lot of balancing work, though.

That's a thought. Another option is a role I tried to use in my first game (which was utterly misused by TP IMHO, so requires careful evaluation) where a pseudo-Seer sends dreams to other people. So innocents and wolves alike can receive dreams at the discretion of the dream sender.

In all fairness though, I think it's so frustrating when roles are not revealed upon death. It's blind chaos.


I like the NW idea. I think part of the balance of that role should be the determination of who becomes the NW, and under what conditions. Some ideas:
- the first wolf to die, but only once the Dead Thread has X number of members
- the second wolf to die
- the wolf taken out by the Beast Hunter
- all wolves collectively on the thread, but only when a minimum 2 wolves are dead

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

To quote Planet of the Apes: you did it! You really did it, Boro!

I'm absolutely up for another game, too.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

It is the TA before the events in the Lord of the Rings. A group of mannish settlers have built a town in the southern end of Mirkwood. The woods folk haven't lived here long, before it has become invaded by werewolves intent on wiping out the village.

Most important question first. Is Dol Guldur at this time already known as Dol Guldur, or is it known as Amon Lanc?

...anyway, the setup looks very good to me by default. I especially like the Bounty Hunter... eee... disclaimer: I already perceive I am not, and likely will not, be able to remember the role's actual name. The Nightmare Wolf under those circumstances would be a must-have, as it is, with the Medium (even though and the Bounty... or whatever... Hunter, the game is likely to be skewed a little to the villagers' side. (Even though of course the Medium can be as much a boon as bane, but maybe a tiny bit more likely to be helpful.) The NW should take care of it though.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Assorted thoughts:

-If you want to avoid randomness, the trap could kill whichever wolf sends the night-kill PM. That lets the wolves choose who to sacrifice, rather than putting a potentially game-changing effect in the hands of a non-player (the mod/RNG).

I actually rather like this idea.

Originally Posted by Loslote

Also, I suppose anyone who claims to have been visited by the NW isn't actually a known innocent. The wolves could arrange a code - the NW doesn't use their power if one of their packmates says the word "purple", then the wolf who said "purple" claims to have been visited. So it's a little less powerful than I had initially thought.

I see someone's already got into the plotting mode
But yeah, I'm a bit afraid of the "reveal to any NW's targets that they've been targeted" part... but if people start bluffing and double-bluffing with it, then, no harm done I guess...

Originally Posted by Blind Guardian

So there's no Medium on day One (since no one is dead [except the mod])
And no Medium on day Two (since only one person is dead - most likely)
And there might not be a Medium on day Three (in the case of a tie).
And there's no guarantee that a Wolf will be killed on the first few days either.

These are actually good points. Even though on Day 2, there would already be two dead (Day 1 lynch and Night kill), but they would have to unanimously decide on what they do. But I guess that at least would give them something to discuss. But it may happen more often than not that the Medium simply won't get chosen. (Which, I mean, is just as well. No big deal.)

But is there a specific reason, Boro, why you wouldn't allow even stuff like 1-0 to be a successful Medium vote?

EDIT: X-ed with Gal (why do I feel the need to mark this even now?!?)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Or, taking time zones into consideration, the wolves could specify in their PM who they would like to sacrifice, regardless of who sends it.

Or that, yes, that's an important detail, and that sounds like an about right correction to make up for it. (Because, unfairness to people in "right timezones" aside, if it was just about the one who sends it, people could also use it as meta-thinking for who might the living Wolves still be, and such.)

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

That's a thought. Another option is a role I tried to use in my first game (which was utterly misused by TP IMHO, so requires careful evaluation) where a pseudo-Seer sends dreams to other people. So innocents and wolves alike can receive dreams at the discretion of the dream sender.

That sounds 200% abuse-able and I can absolutely see what one could do with that.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I like the NW idea. I think part of the balance of that role should be the determination of who becomes the NW, and under what conditions. Some ideas:
- the first wolf to die, but only once the Dead Thread has X number of members
- the second wolf to die
- the wolf taken out by the Beast Hunter
- all wolves collectively on the thread, but only when a minimum 2 wolves are dead

I like the idea of there being some quota for the dead thread before the ability kicks in. Otherwise I also support the idea of all the dead WWs deciding amongst themselves (via Nightly PMs, presumably) and just sending their pick to the Mod, the same way a Night kill would be done.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

These are actually good points. Even though on Day 2, there would already be two dead (Day 1 lynch and Night kill), but they would have to unanimously decide on what they do. But I guess that at least would give them something to discuss. But it may happen more often than not that the Medium simply won't get chosen. (Which, I mean, is just as well. No big deal.)

But is there a specific reason, Boro, why you wouldn't allow even stuff like 1-0 to be a successful Medium vote?

Looking at the Quarantine Thread from Nog's game, the villagers were quite unanimous in who to vote for. The lack of controversy can be a good thing and a bad thing (remember everyone innocently voting Rune?), but in both cases it's a less-amount-of-scheming thing. I suppose things would be different when you empower as opposed to directly vote someone, when you're trying to balance between signalling something with your choice of Medium but also trying to empower a vote you agree with. Will the >50% cut off make the voting even more unanimous, or will it play to the dead wolves' hands if the Dead innocents change their mind about their Medium choice mid-vote because of the Game Thread developments? The >50% rule gives the wolves a better chance at sabotaging the vote, but I wonder if it will also force the innocents to undue coherence.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Do you take signups already? If you do please count me in!

Yep! Welcome. I just meant I'm in no particular rush to get started. All of June is open for me. First weekend of July I have a wedding (so far hasn't been cancelled). But I'm not in the wedding party, so I'd still be available.

And as far as DL's go. the DL in Nog's game seemed to work well for everyone. I'm completely available after 4pm EST (8pm GMT) every day. So, I'm flexible there to have it then or a little later if that's better.

Originally Posted by Blind Guardian

I think your ideas sound interesting. Sign me up!

So there's no Medium on day One (since no one is dead [except the mod])
And no Medium on day Two (since only one person is dead - most likely)
And there might not be a Medium on day Three (in the case of a tie).
And there's no guarantee that a Wolf will be killed on the first few days either.

Would there be a random Medium or just no Medium on the first two or so days?



Would the Nightmare Wolf not be able to stop the Medium (to prevent them from being too powerful)? Would the other Wolves know who the NW is?


Sorry if my post is a little naive. I've been reading through some old games but they're LONG and I'm not done yet.

Welcome BG :-D. G55 answered those questions on the Medium. And the Nightmare Wolf (NW) still hammering out the details.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

To quote Planet of the Apes: you did it! You really did it, Boro!

I'm absolutely up for another game, too.


Most important question first. Is Dol Guldur at this time already known as Dol Guldur, or is it known as Amon Lanc?

Haha, well in that case I would say it shall be when Dol Guldur is known as Amon Lanc

But is there a specific reason, Boro, why you wouldn't allow even stuff like 1-0 to be a successful Medium vote?

My thinking is to be empowered to be a Medium, and a "voice for the dead" it would mean a majority from the dead. I considered your suggestion that dead wolves vote would count as 2 in the dead thread, but thought that might give them too much power in impacting the Day lynch. And a Medium could be chosen by essentially the dead wolf (and not the majority of the dead). After already giving the dead wolf, in the form of the NW, a power to effect the gifteds at Night, I steered away from allowing them the potential power to pick a Medium.

I mean technically they could still have that potential, but it would just be a little harder. It would also give the chance that there would be no Medium, and therefor no living players vote gets doubled.

I'm not sure if that would make it too restricting for the dead innocents. But I have read the very first WW game on the Downs, where the Barrow-wight allowed retractable votes. Once a player reached a majority the voting stopped and the player was lynched right away. I won't allow retractable votes in the Living thread, that's just too much of a headache.

But I think given how difficult it could be for the dead to agree on a Medium, I would allow the dead retractable votes. And then just go by the B-W's rule. Once the majority threshold is hit, that person is automatically chosen as Medium for that Day. I would post in the Living thread once I see that happen. In the event the threshold is not met 2 hours prior to the DL, I would post in the Living thread there was too much division amongst the dead and they chose no Medium that day.

Thoughts on that?

Originally Posted by Huey

-If you want to avoid randomness, the trap could kill whichever wolf sends the night-kill PM. That lets the wolves choose who to sacrifice, rather than putting a potentially game-changing effect in the hands of a non-player (the mod/RNG).

When I run fantasy sports leagues I put everyone into a randomizer and click randomize 10 times to determine the draft order. I was going to follow the same, just put all the wolves in the randomizer, click 10 times and whatever name was first would be the one dead. But I do like this idea of who sends the night kill in better.

I also am not opposed to the wolves deciding amongst themselves and sending me who gets sacrificed if caught in the BH's trap. So, let's go with that, the wolves can also PM me who gets "sacrificed" to the trap.

----

On the Nightmare Werewolf (NW), thanks for all the input and I wanted to put out the basics, so we could all get a discussion going on the possibilities and potential of the role. To kind of combine the options from the discussion so far...here:

Option 1

The NW only goes into effect when 2 wolves have died. They are able to Privately communicate during the Night phase and PM me the name of the player they decide to haunt

I will only PM a gifted to alert them their ability was blocked by the dead wolves

Option 2

I'm really intrigued by Lottie's, Rikae's and Greenie's points that it might be beneficial for an ordo to find out they were the target of the NW haunts. So..

-There is 1 NW pre-determined and informed to the entire pack who the NW is. Which would make for some interesting dynamics for the pack to decide on potentially sacrificing...etc

In order to put some risk into the potential reward. When dead, the NW would not have to haunt someone every night. But if they choose to, regardless of the role, that player will be notified via PM from me that their sleep was haunted by the NW. This I can see would limit the power of the NW, that I feared could happen if allowed every night once a wolf was dead.

I really like the strategy in this option, because as Rikae said it could give the ordo "haunted" a new perspective. Also, there would be a risk for the NW to decide to haunt someone every single night. Of course the player can claim whatever they want, that they suffered from nightmares...etc It could be a bluff, a lie to attract the living wolves to kill them.. The potential is fascinating.

The only thing that would be forbidden is for of course the player to reveal or directly say "Boro sent me a PM saying the NW haunted me." That would result in the player's immediate mod-fire and removal. But, I know we're all good sports about not cheating the game.

[Galadriel55]

I am starting to mentally trip over the words "haunted" and "hunted".

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

In order to put some risk into the potential reward. When dead, the NW would not have to haunt someone every night. But if they choose to, regardless of the role, that player will be notified via PM from me that their sleep was haunted by the NW. This I can see would limit the power of the NW, that I feared could happen if allowed every night once a wolf was dead.

I really like the strategy in this option, because as Rikae said it could give the ordo "haunted" a new perspective. Also, there would be a risk for the NW to decide to haunt someone every single night. Of course the player can claim whatever they want, that they suffered from nightmares...etc It could be a bluff, a lie to attract the living wolves to kill them.. The potential is fascinating.

Actually, could probably include this possibility in Option 1 as well. That is the NW goes into effect once there are 2 dead wolves. They don't have to send in a haunt every night, but if they do the person, regardless of role will be notified?

I'd like some more feedback on this please.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Actually, could probably include this possibility in Option 1 as well. That is the NW goes into effect once there are 2 dead wolves. They don't have to send in a haunt every night, but if they do the person, regardless of role will be notified?

I'd like some more feedback on this please.

I haven't thought this through in a ton of detail, but at first glance, it seems like it would be pretty balanced in terms of not creating tons of known innocents.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Actually, could probably include this possibility in Option 1 as well. That is the NW goes into effect once there are 2 dead wolves. They don't have to send in a haunt every night, but if they do the person, regardless of role will be notified?

I'd like some more feedback on this please.

I see this being a debate between haunting to block a suspected gifted and haunting to mislead innocents into thinking they were selected because they were suspected as a gifted. And something that can be used by the NW to mislead the village, but also used by villagers to distract both dead and living wolves from the real gifteds. There is potential for it to balance out, but without testing it out it's hard to say which way it might topple. The big pro argument I have for revealing haunts is that it would make the game more fun for ordos, because it gives them more feedback / insight in the game, and more interaction with the special roles.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Boro

But I think given how difficult it could be for the dead to agree on a Medium, I would allow the dead retractable votes. And then just go by the B-W's rule. Once the majority threshold is hit, that person is automatically chosen as Medium for that Day. I would post in the Living thread once I see that happen. In the event the threshold is not met 2 hours prior to the DL, I would post in the Living thread there was too much division amongst the dead and they chose no Medium that day.

Thoughts on that?

That depends on whether you want to block the possibility of the living and dead using the empowered votes to send messages rather than just empower a vote. I could see them setting something up day one like "after the seer dies, this vote means X and that means Y", and that sort of thing tends to take excitement and suspense out of the game.
If you wait to reveal the empowered vote at deadline it could help avoid that situation.

[Macalaure]

Reporting for duty!

Is there a cobbler in this game? If not, there is now.

Originally Posted by Rikae

That depends on whether you want to block the possibility of the living and dead using the empowered votes to send messages rather than just empower a vote. I could see them setting something up day one like "after the seer dies, this vote means X and that means Y", and that sort of thing tends to take excitement and suspense out of the game.
If you wait to reveal the empowered vote at deadline it could help avoid that situation.

This was the first thing that came to my mind here. If the dead are able to communicate a name every day, regardless of what the intended function of it is, they are able to communicate the wolf dreams of a dead seer. The seer, in turn, does not have to worry about leaving hints about their dreams, making them so much harder to spot for the wolves.

What if the living aren't explicitly told who the medium is and instead only the vote count is revealed? Would that be better or worse?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

What if the living aren't explicitly told who the medium is and instead only the vote count is revealed? Would that be better or worse?

That is something that hasn't been done before, if I remember right, and therefore I am all for it.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

This was the first thing that came to my mind here. If the dead are able to communicate a name every day, regardless of what the intended function of it is, they are able to communicate the wolf dreams of a dead seer. The seer, in turn, does not have to worry about leaving hints about their dreams, making them so much harder to spot for the wolves.

What if the living aren't explicitly told who the medium is and instead only the vote count is revealed? Would that be better or worse?

I don't think I've ever seen this idea before! I think this would serve the purpose of encouraging the Seer to leave hints; I don't know whether that's something we necessarily want to encourage, though. I think Brinn played an incredible Seer game in that new style last game, and I'd want to see a couple more tries at it before I decide whether it's unbalanced or whether Brinn was just that good.

[satansaloser2005]

Signing up now, will return at a later time with thoughts on concept, but this looks amazing!

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Signing up now, will return at a later time with thoughts on concept, but this looks amazing!

^What she said!

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

That is something that hasn't been done before, if I remember right, and therefore I am all for it.

I've seen something similar done before, and it works very nicely. (It gets even funnier when you have multiple factors influencing the vote, and don't reveal anything except who was killed. Then the villagers get to spend the night puzzling over why someone with only one vote wound up lynched...!)

I see I've been tentatively signed up for this one? Given how many people are coming back to the Downs over these games, I'd like to opt out for now, to free up space for a returning player. If you feel the game is still small enough when people stop signing up, I'll happily opt back in.

Speaking of that limit: you've been talking about only activating the Nightmare Wolf once two wolves are dead, but with only three wolves, I feel like there's a huge risk that the NW will be entirely useless, because the Seer could well already know the identity of the final wolf by the time it activates.

hS

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Haha, well in that case I would say it shall be when Dol Guldur is known as Amon Lanc

Originally Posted by Boromir88

My thinking is to be empowered to be a Medium, and a "voice for the dead" it would mean a majority from the dead. I considered your suggestion that dead wolves vote would count as 2 in the dead thread, but thought that might give them too much power in impacting the Day lynch. And a Medium could be chosen by essentially the dead wolf (and not the majority of the dead). After already giving the dead wolf, in the form of the NW, a power to effect the gifteds at Night, I steered away from allowing them the potential power to pick a Medium.

I mean technically they could still have that potential, but it would just be a little harder. It would also give the chance that there would be no Medium, and therefor no living players vote gets doubled.

I'm not sure if that would make it too restricting for the dead innocents. But I have read the very first WW game on the Downs, where the Barrow-wight allowed retractable votes. Once a player reached a majority the voting stopped and the player was lynched right away. I won't allow retractable votes in the Living thread, that's just too much of a headache.

But I think given how difficult it could be for the dead to agree on a Medium, I would allow the dead retractable votes. And then just go by the B-W's rule. Once the majority threshold is hit, that person is automatically chosen as Medium for that Day. I would post in the Living thread once I see that happen. In the event the threshold is not met 2 hours prior to the DL, I would post in the Living thread there was too much division amongst the dead and they chose no Medium that day.

Very well! Sound logic.

That majority part makes sense, except [see below on revealing the Medium only on DL].

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Actually, could probably include this possibility in Option 1 as well. That is the NW goes into effect once there are 2 dead wolves. They don't have to send in a haunt every night, but if they do the person, regardless of role will be notified?

I like it and these could indeed be combined. I am definitely for the 2 dead WWs quota (or something similar, but this would work well I think).

Originally Posted by Rikae

That depends on whether you want to block the possibility of the living and dead using the empowered votes to send messages rather than just empower a vote. I could see them setting something up day one like "after the seer dies, this vote means X and that means Y", and that sort of thing tends to take excitement and suspense out of the game.
If you wait to reveal the empowered vote at deadline it could help avoid that situation.

Originally Posted by Loslote

I don't think I've ever seen this idea before! I think this would serve the purpose of encouraging the Seer to leave hints; I don't know whether that's something we necessarily want to encourage, though. I think Brinn played an incredible Seer game in that new style last game, and I'd want to see a couple more tries at it before I decide whether it's unbalanced or whether Brinn was just that good.

It has been done before and exactly it has been abused that way. I'm therefore with Rikae on revealing the thing only at the DL. That way, we also eliminate the "waiting for the QT to tell us what they think before we vote"-effect.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

What if the living aren't explicitly told who the medium is and instead only the vote count is revealed? Would that be better or worse?

On first sight, to me it sounds like a terrible mess. As in, I could imagine half of the next Day spent by the villagers bickering about "I was the Medium yesterDay" "no, *I* was the Medium! The Dead trust me!" "No! You both shut up, it was me who was the Medium!!!"

...although that, too, might be fun. But let's think about it from all angles.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Reporting for duty!

Is there a cobbler in this game? If not, there is now.

Woot! And yes there is a cobbler.

With 13-15 players I'm thinking

1 Seer
1 Ranger
1 Hunter
3 wolves
1 Cobbler
6-8 Villagers

I suspect we'll get to 16+, in which I will add a 4th wolf. And the regular hunter will become a Beast Hunter.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I see I've been tentatively signed up for this one? Given how many people are coming back to the Downs over these games, I'd like to opt out for now, to free up space for a returning player. If you feel the game is still small enough when people stop signing up, I'll happily opt back in.

I mean, if you wish. I don't expect there will be as many as Nog's game, but there is no limited # of spots. I wanted to leave the possibility that it could be a smaller sized village, but also if there are more players it could balance out.

Speaking of that limit: you've been talking about only activating the Nightmare Wolf once two wolves are dead, but with only three wolves, I feel like there's a huge risk that the NW will be entirely useless, because the Seer could well already know the identity of the final wolf by the time it activates.

With 3 wolves I was leaning towards pre-determining 1 the NW and informing the entire pack who it was. That would seem fair.

With 4 wolves I'm leaning towards the once 2 are dead, together they become powerful enough to activate the NW powers.

I'll think about the Medium more and get more input.

I agree it would be better to only explicitly reveal the Medium (or that there was none) at the DL. I could include it in the narration of the lynch. This would allow the dead to still possibly send messages, but it would also give the wolves the chance at night to strategize what that message possibly is. If I explicitly reveal during the Day, I can see how that kills the suspense on that Day.

I also see where Mac is going with not explicitly revealing and just having the final vote count. It would be clear if none was chosen. There still might be a message sent from the dead, it could take quite a bit of unraveling. But that could benefit the village side, as if the "possible" Medium was hiding in between 5 other voters. The confusion of unraveling who the Medium was could benefit wolves, but not revealing the Medium could benefit the village as in not putting a "kill me" target on that person's back.

I'll think about it some more. Either way, the Medium (or no Medium chosen) won't be known by the Living until the end of the DL, and included in the narration.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Signing up now, will return at a later time with thoughts on concept, but this looks amazing!

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

^What she said!

Thirded! But with a question mark for now. I think I can really only manage playing in a smaller village at this point.


Edit: Crossposted with the new Mod God over on (haha!) Facebook Messenger

[Kath]

I'm very happy to play again but, like Hui, if it gets too big and someone who didn't get to play in the last game needs the spot then that's fine.

I think that so far I understand about one of these new rules but given that I spend most games faintly confused I can't see that being too much of a problem!

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Kath

I think that so far I understand about one of these new rules but given that I spend most games faintly confused I can't see that being too much of a problem!

That didn't work very well for us concerning the Innocent Child early in the previous game, did it?

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

Thirded! But with a question mark for now. I think I can really only manage playing in a smaller village at this point.


Edit: Crossposted with the new Mod God over on (haha!) Facebook Messenger

Originally Posted by Kath

I'm very happy to play again but, like Hui, if it gets too big and someone who didn't get to play in the last game needs the spot then that's fine.

I think that so far I understand about one of these new rules but given that I spend most games faintly confused I can't see that being too much of a problem!

Welcome Welcome. I guess we'll see what happens.

I believe Nog and Brinn still intend to to play again in June. I also sent a message to Nilp (same message to Lhuna, and we happened to cross post through different platforms! ) and Agan saying it would be nice if they were able to come back for a summer game.

[Kath]

Originally Posted by Lhuna

Quote:

I think that so far I understand about one of these new rules but given that I spend most games faintly confused I can't see that being too much of a problem!
That didn't work very well for us concerning the Innocent Child early in the previous game, did it?

... is it too soon to admit that I still don't actually understand that role?

Ooh also, look! I finally figured out quote within a quote!

[wilwarin538]

Sign me up!

Edit: after reading things more closely, I love the new roles! Especially the Medium (I like the idea of keeping their identity a secret). I like Option 2 for the NW, though not allowing them to choose the same person twice in a row might be wise; if they figure out who the seer is they could latch on to them and that would be no fun. The Beast Hunter role also sounds awesome!

[Kath]

wilwa! It's so good to see you.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

++Nilpaurion Felagund

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I've thoughts, but not at 4 am.

[Boromir88]

Wilwa! Nilp! Shasta!



There is a good size to get more underway I'll post an updated draft of the roles and rules in the next few days. With a tentative start set sometime next week, or perhaps the week after.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

++Nilpaurion Felagund

Congrats, Boro, you got him out of retirement. I hope you don't regret it.

[Nogrod]

Count me in as well, if there's still room.