Fall of Gondolin

[Urwen]

This book has come out, and I am very eager to read it.

Let this be the discussion thread for this new book.

I just read the summary, and the fall itself isn't described in detail, which means that my hope to learn more about one of my favorite characters is in vain.

[Inziladun]

Unlike The Children of Húrin, Fall isn't presented as a complete narrative; rather different versions of the story.
It did reinforce my affinity for the piece of the tale as given in Unfinished Tales.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Rather like Beren and Luthien, this is really a repackaging of material previously publshed. If you have HME and UT, there's nothing you haven't seen before.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Rather like Beren and Luthien, this is really a repackaging of material previously publshed. If you have HME and UT, there's nothing you haven't seen before.

I've said over and over than I don't have HoME.....

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It's certainly useful not only for those who don't have HME, but for anyone who finds it convenient to have all the Gondolin material in one place.

If you haven't read any of HME, Urwen, then you'll be very pleased to know that the included original Fall of Gondolin (1916, rev. 1920) tells the battle for the city in thorough detail.

[Urwen]

Tuor and Maeglin are polar opposites.



One is the embodiment of light, while the other is the embodiment of darkness. One had exceptional luck, while the other didn't. One survived, the other did not.



That's even lampshaded, here


I am mostly interested in their dynamic, and now that I have ordered the book online, it's mine for the taking.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Tuor and Maeglin are polar opposites.

One is the embodiment of light, while the other is the embodiment of darkness. One had exceptional luck, while the other didn't. One survived, the other did not.

If you didn't tell me who you're talking about I would have guessed Tuor and Turin - their fates are also similarly contrasted. But I agree that within the context of Gondolin Maeglin fits well too.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

If you didn't tell me who you're talking about I would have guessed Tuor and Turin - their fates are also similarly contrasted. But I agree that within the context of Gondolin Maeglin fits well too.

I wonder if that was intentional on Tolkien's part.


I'll also be receiving the book on Thursday! So excited!

[Urwen]

The book says that there were rumors that Meglin had Orc blood in his veins. What do you think of that?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

The book says that there were rumors that Meglin had Orc blood in his veins. What do you think of that?

I'd class it with the rumours of 'fairy' blood in the Took family - a baseless assertion made to explain someone being different from the norm.

If there was something to it, it would say very worrying things about Eol's ancestry. He's an undefined kinsman of Thingol, so perhaps we would postulate his recent ancestry being elves who stayed east of the Blue Mountains, and then had to flee. Presumably we would be looking at involuntary interbreeding - ie, rape - though I suppose anything is possible.

The HoME version of the Fall explicitly names Eol and Isfin as Meglin's parents, so it seems some version of that story was in place; but the claim that he 'was come of an ancient house, though now were its numbers less than others' suggests that Eol might have been an elf of Gondolin.

And indeed, yes; there's a note from Christopher here:

Originally Posted by HoME II - The Fall of Gondolin - Note 4, Isfin and Eol

The earliest version of this tale is found in the little Lost Tales notebook, as follows:

Isfin and Eol

Isfin [Aredhel] daughter of Fingolma [Fingolfin] loved from afar by Eol (Arval) of the Mole-kin of the Gnomes. He is strong and in favour with Fingolma and with the Sons of Feanor (to whom he is akin) because he is a leader of the Miners and searches after hidden jewels, but he is illfavoured and Isfin loathes him.

It's pretty clear that Tolkien adopted this story wholesale for Maeglin and Idril, but the retention of Isfin and Eol's names suggests they may have kept it too. CT notes that there's no connection of this story to Gondolin, but if we imagine it being retained, that would almost have to be the setting. Quite how Eol could be kin to the Feanorians is impossible to say; I think at this point the whole 'everyone part of the House of Finwe' structure wasn't in place.

hS

[Urwen]

But don't forget that Orc are corrupted Elves. Maybe one of those sired Eol.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

But don't forget that Orc are corrupted Elves. Maybe one of those sired Eol.

Well, yes, which is how they could breed at all. But the orc-taint apparently breeds true; note Saruman's half-orcs, who certainly weren't 'half-corrupted'. So Eol couldn't be a child of a pair of Orcs - he would need at least one Elvish parent.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Well, yes, which is how they could breed at all. But the orc-taint apparently breeds true; note Saruman's half-orcs, who certainly weren't 'half-corrupted'. So Eol couldn't be a child of a pair of Orcs - he would need at least one Elvish parent.

hS

The child of Orc and Elf would still have Orc blood in their veins, and pass said blood to next generation too.

[Huinesoron]

I think my ramblings about previous versions hid my second paragraph from you; I did write a bit about how the Orcish strain might have entered his lineage.

hS

[Urwen]

Well, I am overjoyed at this. The Elves are portrayed as too perfect, so knowing that there exist at least two with Orcish blood in their veins makes me feel all tingly.

[Urwen]

He seized him by that hand that held the knife, and broke the arm with a wrench...And then, taking him by the middle, leapt with him upon the walls, and flung him far out.....

When I read that part, I couldn't help but imagine something like this....

Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke his arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench.

And.....that is going to be my signature

[Huinesoron]

Haha.

It's actually remarkable how little Tolkien runs afoul of linguistic shift or variance ('wrench' as a tool isn't British English use; we'd say 'spanner' usually). There are other cases - Tom Bombadil springs to mind, with "soon you will be groping!", and then there's Sam describing Elves as 'gay and sad' - but by and large he's managed to avoid it.

hS

[Urwen]

You're not going to ask whose arm he broke?


Then again, I suppose you already know about that one.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

You're not going to ask whose arm he broke?

Then again, I suppose you already know about that one.

I'm pretty sure I've quoted that passage at you in full at least once, so yes, I know that part. Also, there's not that many people who get thrown over walls...!

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I'm pretty sure I've quoted that passage at you in full at least once, so yes, I know that part. Also, there's not that many people who get thrown over walls...!

hS

Hm, I am not too sure about that. Let's see


Maeglin (obvious)
Gollum (also obvious)
Nienor threw herself from the cliff
Gandalf jumped from the wall of Orthanc and later fell off a bridge
Denethor, who - you guessed it - jumped from the wall to his death
And Aragorn was dragged off a cliff during the movie.


See? I bet that this is more people who fell from a cliff than you thought there would be.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Hm, I am not too sure about that. Let's see

Maeglin (obvious)
Gollum (also obvious)
Nienor threw herself from the cliff
Gandalf jumped from the wall of Orthanc and later fell off a bridge
Denethor, who - you guessed it - jumped from the wall to his death
And Aragorn was dragged off a cliff during the movie.

See? I bet that this is more people who fell from a cliff than you thought there would be.

I... concede the point. If we're counting the movies (for Denethor and Aragorn), I think we have to include Frodo's tumble after Gollum; and does Haldir go over the wall when he gets shot?

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Haha.

It's actually remarkable how little Tolkien runs afoul of linguistic shift or variance ('wrench' as a tool isn't British English use; we'd say 'spanner' usually). There are other cases - Tom Bombadil springs to mind, with "soon you will be groping!", and then there's Sam describing Elves as 'gay and sad' - but by and large he's managed to avoid it.

hS

Then there's this classic: "Aragorn and Legolas went now with Eomer in the van." Specifically, a Ford Econoline Custom with shag carpeting and quadraphonic sound.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Hm, I am not too sure about that. Let's see


Maeglin (obvious)
Gollum (also obvious)
Nienor threw herself from the cliff
Gandalf jumped from the wall of Orthanc and later fell off a bridge
Denethor, who - you guessed it - jumped from the wall to his death
And Aragorn was dragged off a cliff during the movie.


See? I bet that this is more people who fell from a cliff than you thought there would be.

Note also that the leading cause of death among Balrogs (100% of known cases) is plummeting.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Then there's this classic: "Aragorn and Legolas went now with Eomer in the van." Specifically, a Ford Econoline Custom with shag carpeting and quadraphonic sound.

If we're doing vehicles, I find that both Nessa and Glaurung have trains: Nessa's is followed by deer, while Glaurung's is full of Balrogs (presumably hogging the dining car like they always do).

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Note also that the leading cause of death among Balrogs (100% of known cases) is plummeting.

Oh, come now! You can hardly count Gothmog falling into a fountain and onto a particularly pointy elf. So it's only 2/3.

Though we should probably add Turgon, who in the very book we're theoretically discussing in this thread dies in the fall of his tower.

Um... and Eol, I suppose!

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Um... and Eol, I suppose!

hS

Now the fact you should mention him is funny. Really funny.

[Urwen]

.....in the name of Lomion.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

.....in the name of Lomion.

Isn't it usual to bump a thread when there's something to respond to? Are you waiting for a 'what do you mean by that?'? I figured you were just picking on me.

Since this is the FoG thread... what's up with Penlod, Lord of the Houses of the Pillar and the Tower of Snow? He's pretty much the least-referenced of the lords of Gondolin - he's mentioned in the assembly, comes to a meeting, then dies. But for some reason Tolkien not only gave him an epithet, but two Houses to rule? I mean, that's got to make sense somehow, right?

hS

[Urwen]

No, I wasn't picking on you. I just figured out it was funny, since you mentioned Eol, when we wouldn't have the book without his child.

Speaking of which, how do we know for sure that Lomion did what he did? History is written by the winners, after all. And get this: said winners supported Tuor.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Isn't it usual to bump a thread when there's something to respond to? Are you waiting for a 'what do you mean by that?'? I figured you were just picking on me.

Since this is the FoG thread... what's up with Penlod, Lord of the Houses of the Pillar and the Tower of Snow? He's pretty much the least-referenced of the lords of Gondolin - he's mentioned in the assembly, comes to a meeting, then dies. But for some reason Tolkien not only gave him an epithet, but two Houses to rule? I mean, that's got to make sense somehow, right?

hS

Want to hear my biased answer or my non-biased one?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Want to hear my biased answer or my non-biased one?

You have a biased opinion on Penlod the Tall? o.O This I have got to hear.

And also the unbiased one, of course.

hS

[Urwen]

Well, as it happens, Turgon had three siblings: Fingon, father of Gil-Galad, Aredhel, mother of Maeglin, and Argon, father of Penlod.


So according to my theory, that's why.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

While we're at it: T says Glorfindel was "a kinsman" of Turgon. Any speculation just how they were related?

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

While we're at it: T says Glorfindel was "a kinsman" of Turgon. Any speculation just how they were related?

I don't know that for sure, but I do have a headcanon that he had something akin to a crush on M[a]eglin, before the betrayal.

[Urwen]

Maeglin, at the moment he fell:

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

While we're at it: T says Glorfindel was "a kinsman" of Turgon. Any speculation just how they were related?

Assuming the later House Finwe family tree is valid, they can't be that close, but... could blond Glorfindel be descended from a sibling of Indis? We know that the 'children of Indis' identity was pretty strong among Fingolfin and Finarfin's lines, so a cousin on the Vanyarin side could be treated as somewhat closer kin than he actually was.

Come to think of it, Elenwe was a Vanya too, wasn't she? Could it be as simple as Glorfindel being Turgon's brother-in-law?

As a bonus, it would explain why he, rather than anyone else, went all-out against the Balrog up on the high pass - because it was threatening Idril, his niece who was the only living reminder of his dead sister.

Urwen - that's a lovely picture, though I have to wonder where his sword's gone. Tolkien was very clear about what Maeglin was doing with his hands: one was holding Earendil and got bitten, one was stabbing Earendil with a dagger and got broken. Anguirel should still be in its sheath, unless by some inconceivable chance he lost it.

(Given that at least three swords are known to have escaped Gondolin, there's always the possibility that Anguirel was also looted, and wound up in some troll's horde somewhere in the eastern lands...)

hS

[Urwen]

If Anguirel was indeed looted, then I wish I could get my hands on it, or at least a model of it. An everlasting reminder of M[a]eglin.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

If Anguirel was indeed looted, then I wish I could get my hands on it, or at least a model of it. An everlasting reminder of M[a]eglin.

WAIT WAIT WAIT HEADCANON.

Orcrist, Glamdring, and by assumption Sting, were Thingol's weapons. They would have been in the Tower when it fell, and been looted by the Orcs who were swarming below.

Anguirel, though, fell with Maeglin from the walls of the city, down into the fire. It would have been destroyed - were it not for someone rescuing it.

Hmm. Do we know anyone who's able to walk through fire and not get burned? Say, someone who has enough independence to go looting during a big battle - and maybe enough to flee the wreck of Beleriand, rather than stay and die at Morgoth's side? Someone who shows up later with a sword that glows with a fierce, fiery light, so bright that it seems to be burning?

It came to the edge of the fire and the light faded as if a cloud had bent over it. Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure. The flames roared up to greet it, and wreathed about it; and a black smoke swirled in the air. Its streaming mane kindled, and blazed behind it. In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it held a whip of many thongs.

'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'

Nah... it couldn't be...

... could it?

(And if it is, then ultimately the sword of the Betrayer of Gondolin meets its end at the blade of the sword of Turgon. Anguirel versus Glamdring: a battle six thousand years in the making!)

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Nah... it couldn't be...

... could it?

(And if it is, then ultimately the sword of the Betrayer of Gondolin meets its end at the blade of the sword of Turgon. Anguirel versus Glamdring: a battle six thousand years in the making!)

hS

That seems....oddly fitting.

[Urwen]

What about Anglachel/Gurthang, though?


Every person it came into contact with died (Eol, Beleg, Turin and Thingol). But what if they weren't the last ones? What if it found its way into Blackheart's black heart?



There are some hints that this might be the case.



Like......


MORGOTH: I am all powerful!


[The darkness clears and Turin, clad in unbreakable armor made by Aule himself steps forth]


TURIN: I've come to settle things at last


GURTHANG: Or rather, we've come to settle things at last.


TURIN: Remember me, Morgy? I've come to avenge my family.


GURTHANG: I have similar goals in mind......

[Urwen]

Do you think that M[a]eglin could have been redeemed if there was someone who loved him in secret and revealed it?