About Eriol - - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Hannah 3 · 03-27-2001, 10:46 AM

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How does 'Eriol' come out 'the one who dreams alone'?
Eru, the one. (Source = Silm.)
Olos, dream. (Source = Unfinished tales)

Wouldn't Eriol be 'the one dream'? Or what does the i mean? (It's an i with a strange line instead of a dot...)

(I haven't got much hopes with this question, but it was bothering me. Lindil, maybe?)

~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>

**lindil** · 03-27-2001, 12:37 PM

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Re: About Eriol -

All elvish subtlties are beyond me [maybe not oneday] I would suggest asking your question at Tolk Lang. sorry about the typo There are links at my Osanwe site.

Funny you should post. I have been wondering if Eriol/Aelfwine was ever totally abandoned [see XI the Aelfwine-Dirhavel chapter] in the Silmarillionconception.

Michael, Tar Elenion, Mithadan ?

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 3/28/01 3:13:22 am

burrahobbit · 03-27-2001, 11:23 PM

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Re: About Eriol -

Eriol is a very very old word. From the 1910s or 20s. It would not surprise me at all if the meanings of it's parts changed before the 70's.

Or you are going about it wrong. I am not very good at any elvish language, so I will not go any further into this option.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

Zoe · 03-28-2001, 02:16 AM

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Re: About Eriol -

The i with a line rather than a dot is an accented i - the accent makes it a "long" i, so it sounds more like "ee". It also means (in this case) that the emphasis would be on the "i" sylable. I think.

</p>

03-28-2001, 07:15 AM

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Re: About Eriol -

"Eriol" indeed springs from the early legends (Cf. also Ereol) There's also an early note where the meaning "one who dreams alone" is said to be a pun on Lindo's part. In any case, Christopher Tolkien also reveals a gloss "Ironcliffs" [so written] ... "Gnomish" equivalent Angol, and Qenya (not later Quenya) Eriollo ... for that was the fairies name for the black coasts of Eriols home. Compare Angol to Old English Angel, Angul -- and cf. Angeln of the Danish Peninsula in this early form of the Mythology for England.

Interestingly, the word eriol in Etymologies, meaning "alone, single", is apparently acceptable in Sindarin as such, according to mega Tolkien linguist David Salo (or at least he offered it as usable in Sindarin poetry)

On the god-word Eru ... root ERE "be alone" and masculine (and sometimes agental) ending -u -> Eru "the One, God". You can see the related meaning in ref. to the singularity of God.

Cheers~

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000317>cian</A> at: 3/29/01 2:25:33 pm

***Mithadan*** · 03-28-2001, 08:56 AM

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Re: About Eriol -

Whether the Aelfwine/Eriol conception was rejected is a matter of debate. Clearly, LoTR makes no mention of Aelfwine. The published Silmarillion also makes no mention of him. Drafts of the various incarnations of the Silmarillion also lose any references to Eriol/Aelfwine over time. However, In HoME 11 and, I believe, 12 Aelfwine is again mentioned in JRRT's late writings concerning conversations with Pengolodh, an elf of Tol Eressea. My belief is that Aelfwine was omitted, not rejected (as is evidenced by my Tales of Tol Eressea series found on the Down's Fan Fiction pages).

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Meneldil · 03-28-2001, 02:27 PM

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Re: About Eriol -

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Clearly, LoTR makes no mention of Aelfwine. The published Silmarillion also makes no mention of him. <hr></blockquote>

The Red Book of Westmarch (of which the LoTR is a translation) would have been written many many years before Aelfwine existed, so it's but logical that it not mention him. As regards the published Silmarillion - I think that we're in agreement that not all of it accurately reflects JRRT's final position on many issues relating to ME, including Aelfwine.

</p>

**lindil** · 03-29-2001, 03:03 AM

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Re: About Eriol -

so at the risk of sounding like the clash <img src=smile.gif ALT="

"> 'should it stay or should it go?'

lindil

</p>

Hannah 3 · 03-29-2001, 12:35 PM

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Re: About Eriol -

*Already confused*
Ok, so I'm not much good at this kind of debate... you lost me a few posts ago. <img src=wink.gif ALT="

">

~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>

***Mithadan*** · 03-29-2001, 01:04 PM

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Re: About Eriol -

Have you read Lost Tales, Hannah? Otherwise, tell us where you are confused and we'll try to help out.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Hannah 3 · 03-30-2001, 11:05 PM

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Re: About Eriol -

*Blush* I got as far as the second page... I was really bored, and I had a better book. I might try again sometime.
But I wasn't referring to the Aelfwine thing. I'm already confused about the language.
If eriollo is the name of his home, how can it mean iron cliffs? and Eriol means 'alone', so where did the 'dreams' come in?

~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>

KayQy · 03-31-2001, 07:28 AM

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Re: About Eriol -

I'm not sure about these particular words, but it might be a case of false cognates--words that look like they came from the same root but actually came from different ones. Someone want to confirm me on this?

Truth will outlast both fact and fiction.</p>

04-13-2001, 08:41 AM

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Re: About Eriol -

Sorry for the delay:

Hannah3, Eriol "One who dreams alone" begins in Qenya, a very early lang related to BoLT. In this light, the BoLT Appendix reveals that the QL (Qenya Lexicon) elements of this interpretation are related to roots ERE "remain alone" and LORO "slumber" (and compare Qenya Lexicon roots OLO/OLOR ~ the latter from which olóre "dream" & olórea "dreamlike" are derived for example). Still early, we may have Tolkien "adding" anyway, that perhaps that meaning was a pun, and that Eriol relates to QL ere(n) "iron or steel" and Qenya ollo, oldó "cliff, seaward precipice", thus related to "Gnomish" Angol and the Iron cliffs of his home.

As I say, that is all early stuff. I contacted Lisa Star, a linguist (and Tolkien linguist) for her opinion on the name, and she thinks that Tolkien merely liked the form Eriol (ie that there was no real phonological reason for e > i originally) and that the Prof. was hunting up a suitable Etymology for it in any case, but never really decided.

What we see in a 'later" light is root ERE as a root from which "lonely" type words derive of course, and Quenya olos, olor "dream, vision" for examples (though see UT for specific applications)

Hope that clears up some <img src=smile.gif ALT="

"> "stuff" in any event, I'm kinda a fan of the Eriol or Ælfwine "framework" myself, along with B. Baggins' translations of course! Cheers~

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000317>cian</A> at: 4/13/01 11:21:08 am

KayQy · 04-18-2001, 06:19 AM

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Re: About Eriol -

Is there a way I could get in touch with this Lisa Star? I'm trying to do a paper on Tolkien languages, and I need to find an article somewhere (kinda hard to do in Spain)

I do not know that we can have a heaven here on earth, but I am sure we need not have a hell here either. --Rich Mullins</p>

04-19-2001, 05:45 AM

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Re: About Eriol -

Have you been to Helge's Ardalambion site KayQy? Through the links there you'll also find "stuff" like the E.L.F. site, from which one can purchase issues of the linguistic journal Vinyar Tengwar for example, or Parma E. ... Lisa's site is linked there, ( Tyalie Tyelelliéva) but don't tell her I sent you <img src=wink.gif ALT="

"> (she's very busy at the moment) Cheers~

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000317>cian</A> at: 4/19/01 8:26:45 am

03-27-2001, 10:46 AM	#1
Hannah 3 Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 64	About Eriol - <font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton Posts: 38</TD><TD><img src=http://www.durmstrang2k.homestead.com/files/aeris.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE> How does 'Eriol' come out 'the one who dreams alone'? Eru, the one. (Source = Silm.) Olos, dream. (Source = Unfinished tales) Wouldn't Eriol be 'the one dream'? Or what does the i mean? (It's an i with a strange line instead of a dot...) (I haven't got much hopes with this question, but it was bothering me. Lindil, maybe?) ~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>

03-27-2001, 12:37 PM	#2
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path Posts: 532</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: About Eriol - All elvish subtlties are beyond me [maybe not oneday] I would suggest asking your question at Tolk Lang. sorry about the typo There are links at my Osanwe site. Funny you should post. I have been wondering if Eriol/Aelfwine was ever totally abandoned [see XI the Aelfwine-Dirhavel chapter] in the Silmarillionconception. Michael, Tar Elenion, Mithadan ? Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 3/28/01 3:13:22 am __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

03-27-2001, 11:23 PM	#3
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit Posts: 715</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: About Eriol - Eriol is a very very old word. From the 1910s or 20s. It would not surprise me at all if the meanings of it's parts changed before the 70's. Or you are going about it wrong. I am not very good at any elvish language, so I will not go any further into this option. What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p> __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

03-28-2001, 08:56 AM	#6
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,381	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist Posts: 769</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: About Eriol - Whether the Aelfwine/Eriol conception was rejected is a matter of debate. Clearly, LoTR makes no mention of Aelfwine. The published Silmarillion also makes no mention of him. Drafts of the various incarnations of the Silmarillion also lose any references to Eriol/Aelfwine over time. However, In HoME 11 and, I believe, 12 Aelfwine is again mentioned in JRRT's late writings concerning conversations with Pengolodh, an elf of Tol Eressea. My belief is that Aelfwine was omitted, not rejected (as is evidenced by my Tales of Tol Eressea series found on the Down's Fan Fiction pages). --Mithadan-- "The Silmarils with living light were kindled clear, and waxing bright shone like stars that in the North above the reek of earth leap forth." </p> __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

03-29-2001, 03:03 AM	#8
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path Posts: 544</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: About Eriol - so at the risk of sounding like the clash <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> 'should it stay or should it go?' lindil </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

03-28-2001, 02:16 AM	#4
Zoe Wight Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 223	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm Posts: 302</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: About Eriol - The i with a line rather than a dot is an accented i - the accent makes it a "long" i, so it sounds more like "ee". It also means (in this case) that the emphasis would be on the "i" sylable. I think. </p>

03-28-2001, 07:15 AM	#5
cian Guest Posts: n/a	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased Posts: 8</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: About Eriol - "Eriol" indeed springs from the early legends (Cf. also Ereol) There's also an early note where the meaning "one who dreams alone" is said to be a pun on Lindo's part. In any case, Christopher Tolkien also reveals a gloss "Ironcliffs" [so written] ... "Gnomish" equivalent Angol, and Qenya (not later Quenya) Eriollo ... for that was the fairies name for the black coasts of Eriols home. Compare Angol to Old English Angel, Angul -- and cf. Angeln of the Danish Peninsula in this early form of the Mythology for England. Interestingly, the word eriol in Etymologies, meaning "alone, single", is apparently acceptable in Sindarin as such, according to mega Tolkien linguist David Salo (or at least he offered it as usable in Sindarin poetry) On the god-word Eru ... root ERE "be alone" and masculine (and sometimes agental) ending -u -> Eru "the One, God". You can see the related meaning in ref. to the singularity of God. Cheers~ </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000317>cian</A> at: 3/29/01 2:25:33 pm

03-28-2001, 02:27 PM	#7
Meneldil Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 23	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased Posts: 10</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: About Eriol - <blockquote>*Quote:*<hr> Clearly, LoTR makes no mention of Aelfwine. The published Silmarillion also makes no mention of him. <hr></blockquote> The Red Book of Westmarch (of which the LoTR is a translation) would have been written many many years before Aelfwine existed, so it's but logical that it not mention him. As regards the published Silmarillion - I think that we're in agreement that not all of it accurately reflects JRRT's final position on many issues relating to ME, including Aelfwine. </p>

03-29-2001, 12:35 PM	#9
Hannah 3 Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 64	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton Posts: 41</TD><TD><img src=http://www.durmstrang2k.homestead.com/files/aeris.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: About Eriol - Already confused Ok, so I'm not much good at this kind of debate... you lost me a few posts ago. <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> ~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>

03-29-2001, 01:04 PM	#10
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,381	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist Posts: 775</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: About Eriol - Have you read Lost Tales, Hannah? Otherwise, tell us where you are confused and we'll try to help out. --Mithadan-- "The Silmarils with living light were kindled clear, and waxing bright shone like stars that in the North above the reek of earth leap forth." </p> __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

03-30-2001, 11:05 PM	#11
Hannah 3 Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 64	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton Posts: 43</TD><TD><img src=http://www.durmstrang2k.homestead.com/files/aeris.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: About Eriol - Blush I got as far as the second page... I was really bored, and I had a better book. I might try again sometime. But I wasn't referring to the Aelfwine thing. I'm already confused about the language. If eriollo is the name of his home, how can it mean iron cliffs? and Eriol means 'alone', so where did the 'dreams' come in? ~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>

03-31-2001, 07:28 AM	#12
KayQy Wight Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Currently Spain Posts: 250	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 188</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: About Eriol - I'm not sure about these particular words, but it might be a case of false cognates--words that look like they came from the same root but actually came from different ones. Someone want to confirm me on this? Truth will outlast both fact and fiction.</p> __________________ Do you really want to know / Or are you a little scared, Afraid that God is not exactly what you'd have Him be? --OC Supertones, "Wilderness" "Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter." -- Max Beerbohm

04-13-2001, 08:41 AM	#13
cian Guest Posts: n/a	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased Posts: 9</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: About Eriol - Sorry for the delay: Hannah3, Eriol "One who dreams alone" begins in Qenya, a very early lang related to BoLT. In this light, the BoLT Appendix reveals that the QL (Qenya Lexicon) elements of this interpretation are related to roots ERE "remain alone" and LORO "slumber" (and compare Qenya Lexicon roots OLO/OLOR ~ the latter from which olóre "dream" & olórea "dreamlike" are derived for example). Still early, we may have Tolkien "adding" anyway, that perhaps that meaning was a pun, and that Eriol relates to QL ere(n) "iron or steel" and Qenya ollo, oldó "cliff, seaward precipice", thus related to "Gnomish" Angol and the Iron cliffs of his home. As I say, that is all early stuff. I contacted Lisa Star, a linguist (and Tolkien linguist) for her opinion on the name, and she thinks that Tolkien merely liked the form Eriol (ie that there was no real phonological reason for e > i originally) and that the Prof. was hunting up a suitable Etymology for it in any case, but never really decided. What we see in a 'later" light is root ERE as a root from which "lonely" type words derive of course, and Quenya olos, olor "dream, vision" for examples (though see UT for specific applications) Hope that clears up some <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> "stuff" in any event, I'm kinda a fan of the Eriol or Ælfwine "framework" myself, along with B. Baggins' translations of course! Cheers~ </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000317>cian</A> at: 4/13/01 11:21:08 am

04-18-2001, 06:19 AM	#14
KayQy Wight Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Currently Spain Posts: 250	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 197</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: About Eriol - Is there a way I could get in touch with this Lisa Star? I'm trying to do a paper on Tolkien languages, and I need to find an article somewhere (kinda hard to do in Spain) I do not know that we can have a heaven here on earth, but I am sure we need not have a hell here either. --Rich Mullins</p> __________________ Do you really want to know / Or are you a little scared, Afraid that God is not exactly what you'd have Him be? --OC Supertones, "Wilderness" "Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter." -- Max Beerbohm

04-19-2001, 05:45 AM	#15
cian Guest Posts: n/a	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased Posts: 10</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: About Eriol - Have you been to Helge's Ardalambion site KayQy? Through the links there you'll also find "stuff" like the E.L.F. site, from which one can purchase issues of the linguistic journal Vinyar Tengwar for example, or Parma E. ... Lisa's site is linked there, ( Tyalie Tyelelliéva) but don't tell her I sent you <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> (she's very busy at the moment) Cheers~ </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000317>cian</A> at: 4/19/01 8:26:45 am