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08-17-2016, 01:26 PM | #1 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: End of the Bag, yet no bag went over me.
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Third Dark Lord, or Melkor's Return?
I've heard it said that, according to prophecy, before the Battle of Battles, Melkor was to return.
I've wondered myself if this was meant to be taken literally, or metaphorically. In other words, whether or not Melkor would return as the Melkor we all know and despise, or in a new body, as a third and final Dark Lord. But when I think about it, Melkor never really left, as in his influence was present all throughout Middle Earth history. So, what do you guys think? Metaphor, or literal?
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08-17-2016, 02:34 PM | #2 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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He was tucked away behind the Door of Night. I don't see him coming out with a new outfit, unless they allow online shopping up there.
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08-17-2016, 03:44 PM | #3 |
Spirit of Mist
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Location: Tol Eressea
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It is unclear whether the Prophecy of Mandos survived Tolkien's revisions to the Silmarillion. If I recall, later versions did not include it. He may have rejected it in favor of his view that Middle Earth merged into the "Primary World" (the Age(s) of Man) following the end of the Third Age.
His conception of the Prophecy was that at some point the Valar would become weary of the world and relax their vigilance, permitting Morgoth to re-enter Arda. The Final Battle would follow after which the world would be remade. Some versions had Turin slaying Morgoth if I recall. Assuming that the Prophecy remains part of the mythos, Morgoth would return in his own body. Some earlier writings had Morgoth being executed following his capture after the fall of Angband. Tolkien rejected this idea for a few reasons. First, he felt that it was not in the nature of the Valar to execute him. Second, Morgoth's death was inconsistent with his later conception of the Valar as perpetual and not able to be "slain." They can be weakened to the point where they cannot construct a physical body, but their spirit would remain. The final iteration was that Morgoth was physically bound with Angainor and expelled into the void. So he had a body for what it's worth.
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08-17-2016, 05:07 PM | #4 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Why would returning with a new body make him a "third dark lord", anyway?
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08-17-2016, 06:06 PM | #5 | ||
Gruesome Spectre
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I wonder if Tolkien's ideas there were colored by Revelation. Satan is to be defeated by direct intervention from God, though as Mithadan notes the Second Prophesy may have had Túrin being the destroyer of Morgoth. It would have been nice to see Túrin getting the chance to repay his tormentor, and save Arda in the bargain.
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08-18-2016, 03:34 AM | #6 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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But I might be mistaking your meaning; in the early conceptions of the execution you're talking about, is the idea that Morgoth simply "died" and that was all that needed to be done? By contrast, in this later account it seems more like the "killing" meant the destruction (or rendering inoperable) of his manifested physical body, after which his fëa was expelled to the void (somehow still bound with the chain?)
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08-18-2016, 07:20 AM | #7 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
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I think the Last Battle (and so on) survived in a sense... as in a "Ragnarokian" end of sorts, but that the Second Prophecy of Mandos did not survive.
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That said, in a late text (see note 17, The Problem of Ros, The Peoples of Middle-Earth) a prophecy is given to Andreth, the Wise woman (still not Mandos of course), that Turin will return from the dead before his final departure, and slay Ancalagon the Black... although according to Christopher Tolkien, this refers to the Last Battle at the end of the Elder Days, not a last battle at the end of days... and here it is noted, before Turin's final departure. Given this late muddle, while I think there was going to be some mannish end-type myth here, I'm not sure about all the details. Yet if a Mannish myth, why not have Turin (a man of course) come back and deal with Morgoth... ... I mean, such a saying is not going to be easy to disprove anyway |
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08-18-2016, 09:16 AM | #8 |
Spirit of Mist
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This post is made at the risk of disappearing down the rabbit hole of "canonicity."
Myths Transformed is a fascinating section of HoME. It gives insight into Tolkien's creative process and his self-doubt regarding how previously well-established portions of his mythos fit within the whole as well as with the Primary World. That said, Myths Transformed must be taken with a grain of salt. Much of the material presented is speculative and their is no indication that it represents JRT's final formulation of how the Silmarillion might be rewritten despite the late date of the writings. Much of the material presented represents a significant departure from his prior conceptions and simply do not align with the Mythos. By way of examples, his "round earth" version of the history of Middle Earth leaves unexplained whether the tale of the Two Trees can be preserved (placing in doubt the origin and nature of the Silmarils themselves). The recasting of Orcs as corrupted men rather than Elves would require a significant revision of the time table of the First Age. His musings regarding whether the tales can be portrayed as a mannish (read Numenorean) distortion of Elvish legend would have significantly impacted the "believability" of the Mythos, and its presentation as a history. As commented above, the "execution" of Morgoth is inconsistent with JRRT's conceptions of the nature of the Valar and their nature. The observation that the Prophecy of Mandos aligns with the biblical version of apocalypse is an apt observation, but draws into question Tolkien's professed dislike of allegory. Just as another observation, the Prophecy of Mandos may also be affiliated with the very early legend of the Elvish "Faring Forth" found in Lost Tales. The relationship is not direct, but the concepts seem to potentially be linked.
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
08-19-2016, 07:58 AM | #9 |
Pile O'Bones
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In reply to Nerwen
Well, a new body would make him at least for a while unrecognizable.
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Three rings for the Elven-kings munchin' on rye, Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their nightly drinks alone, nine for Mortal "Men" doomed to cry, one for the Barrel lord on his barrel-y throne in the land of hoarders where the fellows cry.
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08-19-2016, 08:57 AM | #10 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Hmmm...Sauron may have been able to fool a few Noldor with his Annatar glam look, but the more percipient Elves figured him out, or at least got such a bad vibe as to turn him away. But if we're talking about the Valar and Maiar, I don't think Morgoth would hoodwink any of them. Besides, if I recollect correctly, I think Morgoth had expended so much of his energy into corrupting Arda that he was no longer able to disguise what he'd become.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
08-19-2016, 09:24 AM | #11 |
Gruesome Spectre
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My impression is that Morgoth's return would not be a covert occurrence. Rather, an open, defiant call to all evil beings to join him in conquering the 'pretenders' in Valinor and restoring Arda's rightful ruler to his throne.
At least that's my epic perception of it.
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08-19-2016, 11:58 AM | #12 | |||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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This, I think, is part of Tolkien's genius! And in my opinion this is where the legendarium was headed, already hinted at in the author-published ATB, and found in a number of late texts, all in general agreement. Christopher Tolkien wrote: Quote:
Later, I think, Tolkien did feel it |
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08-19-2016, 07:09 PM | #13 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. |
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06-03-2017, 12:32 AM | #14 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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My Favourite Topic
This is my favourite topic. I have taken on board the premise that the Second Prophesy of Mandos was not taken through to Tolkien's death in overt notes. I doubt, however, that he did not have something in mind. The way he was morphing the Tale of Celeborn and Galadriel, was one of his focal points right until the end.
I have two competing renditions of a Remaking and correcting the Marring of Arda 1. the standard: Feanor assists Yavanna in a repentance, gathering up the Jewells in a rekindling. However, I've a problem. Valar cannot be slain. It's unclear what the point of Tulkas was on about. And the redemptive themes in the House of Hurin. And then there's the Orc's spirits, the Dwarves and a great deal of missing emphases about what the heck happens in the second Making. 2. By Inference. It's a Vanity Inversion theory, in the architecture of *inference*. That is the events in the standard works are seen 'from within Ea' and bound by Vanity of the Valar, Elves and Men and so, interpretations are terribly literal. I wonder about a heart STEALTH SANCTIONED by Eru and the place of MERCY for Sauron and Melkor and a REWORING of their placement, by reinterpreting the Music of the Ainur. I'll go into details if anyone shows interest in the materials I can cite to run a parallel view.
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