Exciting Tolkien find - map lovers alert.. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lalaith · 10-23-2015, 07:54 AM

http://www.theguardian.com/books/201...d-of-the-rings

Ravenna the inspiration for Minas Tirith? Interesting...

Inziladun · 10-23-2015, 09:14 AM

Oh, for one close look at that map. I fear it's likely to end up in the hands of someone who only values it for its "pop culture" significance rather than as a unique window into the mind of such a great author.

Minas Tirith has always seemed rather Mediterranean, so the Ravenna connotation is maybe not that surprising.

Pitchwife · 10-25-2015, 02:56 PM

There's also a statement in Letter 294 that puts Minas Tirith "at about the latitude of Florence" and Pelargir at that of ancient Troy - so yes, Gondor is definitely mediterranean. It would be interesting though whether the Professor had any specific architectural features of Ravenna (or Florence, for that matter) in mind when he described the White City.

Faramir Jones · 10-26-2015, 07:07 AM

According to the Letters, Tolkien and his daughter Priscilla visited Italy from late July to mid-August 1955. In a letter dated 7th September, a reply to questions asked by a reader, Richard Jeffrey, Tolkien apologised for the delay in his reply, saying that the former's enquiry 'came while I was away, in Gondor (sc. Venice), as a change from the North Kingdom'. (Letter 168)

Pitchwife · 10-26-2015, 09:39 AM

Can't put my fingers on the quote right now, but I distinctly remember him speaking somewhere of Venice as Númenórean Pelargir before the Shadow came. It may be in a letter from the same time as the one you quoted, Faramir.

While we're dwelling on geographical correspondences, it's quite obvious that the coastline of Lindon, Minhiriath and Enedwaith broadly matches that of the British Isles (with the Irish Sea dried up) and France, except the Iberian Peninsula seems to have been mislaid.

Kuruharan · 10-26-2015, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Oh, for one close look at that map. I fear it's likely to end up in the hands of someone who only values it for its "pop culture" significance rather than as a unique window into the mind of such a great author.

I agree! We need a fundraiser for the Downs to buy this at once!

To say nothing of the other items from Baynes' effects, talk about a fantasy nerd's treasure trove.

William Cloud Hicklin · 10-26-2015, 05:34 PM

Mentally I can't square Ravenna in the middle of endless flat fens with near-vertical Minas Tirith on its mountain seat

Faramir Jones · 10-27-2015, 06:02 AM

Pitchwife, you're right in terms of your reference. In Volume I, Chronology, of their The J.R.R.Tolkien Companion and Guide (2006), Christina Scull and Wayne Hammond deal in detail with Tolkien's 1955 trip to Italy with his daughter Priscilla. There is a lot of detail from Tolkien himself; because he kept a journal of the trip, which he called Giornale d'Italia.

On 27th July 1955, he wrote to Rayner Unwin, 'I leave the North Kingdom [England] for a rapid excursion to Gondor [Italy] on Saturday morning, but shall, I hope, be back by August 16'. (Chronology, p. 462)

His and Priscilla's trip to Italy is covered on pages 462-74 of the Chronology, and pages 463-8 deal with their time in Venice. On page 466, we read that after both had dinner with Christopher and Faith Tolkien, who were also staying in Venice, they returned to their hotel. Tolkien's account speaks of it being

a beautiful balmy night...Venice seemed incredible, elvishly lovely - to me like a dream of Old Gondor, or Pelagrir of the Númenorean ships, before the return of the Shadow.

Ivriniel · 11-07-2015, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalaith

http://www.theguardian.com/books/201...d-of-the-rings

Ravenna the inspiration for Minas Tirith? Interesting...

I liked the reverence to "Dorwinich" in Rhun. Is that where the Second of the Nazgul, Kamul, came from. What, exactly is the origin of the Easterling?

I also saw some tantalising scrawling on Gundabad, which was off the top of the page. Wonder where that was going.

Axbolt · 11-16-2015, 05:31 AM

Quote:

I also saw some tantalising scrawling on Gundabad, which was off the top of the page. Wonder where that was going.

I found a better image on the internet, it reads "Eotheod", although I have no idea what it means

Zigûr · 11-16-2015, 06:23 AM

It's perhaps a speculation on the lands of origin of the Éothéod, ancestors of the Eorlingas (aka the Rohirrim), who did originally come from the North before settling in the Mark.

Faramir Jones · 11-20-2015, 09:12 AM

You're right, Zigûr. While I don't have it to hand, I recall in the relevant essay in Unfinished Tales that the Éothéod moved to the upper vales of Anduin after the fall of Agmar, to seek more room.

By the time of Eorl, they had become too many for that location, but were constrained from moving south because of the growing power of Dol Guldur, occupied by Sauron. Therefore, the offer by Ruling Steward Cirion of Calenardhon to Eorl as a reward for their help would give them plenty of room to grow.

Mithalwen · 11-21-2015, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axbolt

I found a better image on the internet, it reads "Eotheod", although I have no idea what it means

Isn't it Anglo saxon or Old English for horse-people?

Galin · 11-21-2015, 04:44 PM

I think Tolkien started writing Eomer... then changed to Theoden mid word... then got distracted and forgot to finish it, and ended up with Eotheod!

It's not impossible...

... although he might have meant eo(h) + þeód too

William Cloud Hicklin · 11-22-2015, 06:34 PM

The word Eotheód occurs in Appendix A as the name of either the people and/or the land of Eorl near the sources of Anduin, before the move south to Calenardhon.

10-23-2015, 07:54 AM	#1
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	Exciting Tolkien find - map lovers alert.. http://www.theguardian.com/books/201...d-of-the-rings Ravenna the inspiration for Minas Tirith? Interesting... __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

10-23-2015, 09:14 AM	#2
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,037	Oh, for one close look at that map. I fear it's likely to end up in the hands of someone who only values it for its "pop culture" significance rather than as a unique window into the mind of such a great author. Minas Tirith has always seemed rather Mediterranean, so the Ravenna connotation is maybe not that surprising. __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

10-25-2015, 02:56 PM	#3
Pitchwife Wight of the Old Forest Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall Posts: 3,329	There's also a statement in Letter 294 that puts Minas Tirith "at about the latitude of Florence" and Pelargir at that of ancient Troy - so yes, Gondor is definitely mediterranean. It would be interesting though whether the Professor had any specific architectural features of Ravenna (or Florence, for that matter) in mind when he described the White City. __________________ Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI

10-26-2015, 07:07 AM	#4
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	Gondor compared to Venice According to the Letters, Tolkien and his daughter Priscilla visited Italy from late July to mid-August 1955. In a letter dated 7th September, a reply to questions asked by a reader, Richard Jeffrey, Tolkien apologised for the delay in his reply, saying that the former's enquiry 'came while I was away, in Gondor (sc. Venice), as a change from the North Kingdom'. (Letter 168)

10-26-2015, 09:39 AM	#5
Pitchwife Wight of the Old Forest Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall Posts: 3,329	Can't put my fingers on the quote right now, but I distinctly remember him speaking somewhere of Venice as Númenórean Pelargir before the Shadow came. It may be in a letter from the same time as the one you quoted, Faramir. While we're dwelling on geographical correspondences, it's quite obvious that the coastline of Lindon, Minhiriath and Enedwaith broadly matches that of the British Isles (with the Irish Sea dried up) and France, except the Iberian Peninsula seems to have been mislaid. __________________ Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI

10-26-2015, 05:34 PM	#7
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,321	Mentally I can't square Ravenna in the middle of endless flat fens with near-vertical Minas Tirith on its mountain seat __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

10-27-2015, 06:02 AM	#8
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	A dream of Old Gondor Pitchwife, you're right in terms of your reference. In Volume I, Chronology, of their The J.R.R.Tolkien Companion and Guide (2006), Christina Scull and Wayne Hammond deal in detail with Tolkien's 1955 trip to Italy with his daughter Priscilla. There is a lot of detail from Tolkien himself; because he kept a journal of the trip, which he called Giornale d'Italia. On 27th July 1955, he wrote to Rayner Unwin, 'I leave the North Kingdom [England] for a rapid excursion to Gondor [Italy] on Saturday morning, but shall, I hope, be back by August 16'. (Chronology, p. 462) His and Priscilla's trip to Italy is covered on pages 462-74 of the Chronology, and pages 463-8 deal with their time in Venice. On page 466, we read that after both had dinner with Christopher and Faith Tolkien, who were also staying in Venice, they returned to their hotel. Tolkien's account speaks of it being a beautiful balmy night...Venice seemed incredible, elvishly lovely - to me like a dream of Old Gondor, or Pelagrir of the Númenorean ships, before the return of the Shadow. Last edited by Faramir Jones; 10-27-2015 at 06:06 AM.

11-16-2015, 06:23 AM	#11
Zigûr Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 785	It's perhaps a speculation on the lands of origin of the Éothéod, ancestors of the Eorlingas (aka the Rohirrim), who did originally come from the North before settling in the Mark. __________________ "Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer.

11-20-2015, 09:12 AM	#12
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	You're right You're right, Zigûr. While I don't have it to hand, I recall in the relevant essay in Unfinished Tales that the Éothéod moved to the upper vales of Anduin after the fall of Agmar, to seek more room. By the time of Eorl, they had become too many for that location, but were constrained from moving south because of the growing power of Dol Guldur, occupied by Sauron. Therefore, the offer by Ruling Steward Cirion of Calenardhon to Eorl as a reward for their help would give them plenty of room to grow.

11-21-2015, 04:44 PM	#14
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,034	I think Tolkien started writing Eomer... then changed to Theoden mid word... then got distracted and forgot to finish it, and ended up with Eotheod! It's not impossible... ... although he might have meant eo(h) + þeód too

11-22-2015, 06:34 PM	#15
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,321	The word Eotheód occurs in Appendix A as the name of either the people and/or the land of Eorl near the sources of Anduin, before the move south to Calenardhon. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.