Was Saruman evil.. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Suldaledhel · 03-16-2001, 05:08 AM

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Or was he simply deluded and tricked by the overwhelming nature of Sauron? Whenever I think about this, I recall the scene from Orthanc, after being thoroughly defeated, Sarumen cant leave, but cant stay. Being trapped by his own dishonesty towards both Gandalf and company, and Sauron. I still think of this and wonder, was Saruman genuinely evil? Or was he rather deluded by the prospect of the ring, which he had studied about, coming into his power? Anyone?

“I have been a fierce bull and a yellow buck. I have been a boat upon the sea. I have been the foam of water. I have been a drop in the air. I have journeyed as high as an eagle. I have been at the throne of the distributor. I have stood high upon the white hill. I was fluent before being gifted with speech. I have been teacher to all intelligences. I have singly built the tower of Nimrhod. I am the tetragrammaton. I am a wonder whose origin is not know, and I shall be until the day of doom upon the earth…” -=I may be found merrymaking at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/>The Barrow Downs</a> or telling stories at <a href=http://pub58.ezboard.com/bsuldalskeep>Sûldal's Keep</a> </p>

***Gilthalion*** · 03-16-2001, 05:30 AM

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Re: Was Saruman evil..

When I think of Saruman at Bag End, the answer is emphatically, yes!

Nothing that is evil was created so.

And the evil of mortals can be forgiven in repentance and redemption (at least in Tolkien's worldview, and mine).

But the evil of eternal creatures is a decision they make that has ramifications beyond the bounds of Time. But once within Time, perhaps they are subject to the same choices as Men. Hence, Gandalf's plea to Saruman to repent, and Saruman's wavering refusal. He chose evil again that day. And never repented of it. Even Sauron is thought to have been genuinely repentant for a time...

(Elves, I think, are immortal creatures, rather than eternal, and thus are more like Men in this regard. They can repent of their evil choices and seek to correct them.)

<center> ~~~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Bare Bones Webpage</a>~~~ </center></p>

***Mithadan*** · 03-16-2001, 07:23 AM

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Re: Was Saruman evil..

I agree with Gilthalion. Saruman was not evil to begin with but slowly became corrupted by his own desire for power and control. At first he deluded himself into believing that he continued to work towards the goals of the Istari, but later dropped even this pretense. Between LoTR and UT it appears Saruman became corrupted by his own desires well prior to the first time he looked into the Palantir.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

**lindil** · 03-16-2001, 11:52 PM

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Evil

As a Maia he had no excuse. He was seduced by the very reason he came to M-E.
truly tragic.Gilthalion's immortal/Eternal distinctions are to my mind right on and reflect the difference between angels and humans in Christian theology that JRRT was using to form the parameters of M-E.

</p>

Elenanna · 03-17-2001, 01:21 AM

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Re: Evil

yes, Saruman definately had no excuse as to turning like that, but the tragic thing is he really wasnt evil in the very beginning. He just got rather jealous of Gandalf and spiteful and proud etc. he just built up that jealousy and it was what helped turn him when Sauron talked to him.also in UT it says that Varda said not the third and Curumo heard this and remembered it. that was probably the first straw.

Visit me at <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/blorien16140>Lorien</a> friend of <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/bamongwareth>Amon Gwareth</a> and <a href=http://pub2.ezboard.com/brivendel>Rivendel</a> find my corpse at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi>The Barrowdowns</a> </p>

Hannah 3 · 03-17-2001, 04:45 AM

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Re: Evil

Yes; even though Sauron seemed really the best, Varda did say Gandalf wouldn't go as the third-best. She saw something then, and later so did the person who gave Gandalf the ring, and so on. It just built up and up and by the end Saruman was evil. In the Orthanc was his last chance at I think he was savable; could have repented and made up for it - but when he rejected it he gave up everything that was good and wise in him and became fully, totally evil.

~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>

**lindil** · 03-17-2001, 08:35 AM

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also

He seems also to have come close moments before his death, when he realized that frodo did truly respect him and that frodo had grown great among the wise even as he had fallen, I imagine Gandalf was on some level aware of Saruman at this moment only a short distance away at Bombadillo's and may well have striven w/ saruman ,encouraging him to repent, even as he encouraged frodo to take off the ring. saruman of course was still unable to shake of the grip of ultimately Morgoth which belittles acts of love and pity and chokes off even reason and the insict for survival. saruman died and his spirit was not allowed to return to the west. I would imagine that as a maia he would in time be able to take shape again unless his spirit was literally dissipated to gratly as seems to be the case w/ Sauron. what sadness there must have been in Valinor and in Mithrandir's heart.

well let us look to our selves.

Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns and working on his own board Osanwe-Kenta[/i]- 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

Lady Eowyn · 03-17-2001, 01:10 PM

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Re: also

I was always wondering what exactly "made" or better turned Saruman to evil.
Sauron? the Ring? The need for power?

Any thoughts??

And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom</p>

Suldaledhel · 03-17-2001, 02:00 PM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: also

I always thought it was his own thirst (or hunger) for personal power, that eventually drove him to become evil...

“I have been a fierce bull and a yellow buck. I have been a boat upon the sea. I have been the foam of water. I have been a drop in the air. I have journeyed as high as an eagle. I have been at the throne of the distributor. I have stood high upon the white hill. I was fluent before being gifted with speech. I have been teacher to all intelligences. I have singly built the tower of Nimrhod. I am the tetragrammaton. I am a wonder whose origin is not know, and I shall be until the day of doom upon the earth…” -=I may be found merrymaking at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/>The Barrow Downs</a> or telling stories at <a href=http://pub58.ezboard.com/bsuldalskeep>Sûldal's Keep</a> </p>

Inziladun · 03-17-2001, 02:37 PM

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Re: also

Saruman's close study of Sauron played a large part in his turn to evil. Was it Elrond who said
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> "It is perilous to study too deeply the arts of the Enemy"<hr></blockquote>?

Saruman spent most of his time learning about Sauron and various dark things. That plus the jealousy he already felt torward Gandalf caused him to desire power. And power for its own sake is always a trait of evil in ME.

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>

Elenanna · 03-17-2001, 11:59 PM

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Re: also

yeah i think its elrond that said it

Visit me at <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/blorien16140>Lorien</a> friend of <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/bamongwareth>Amon Gwareth</a> and <a href=http://pub2.ezboard.com/brivendel>Rivendel</a> find my corpse at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi>The Barrowdowns</a> </p>

03-16-2001, 05:08 AM	#1
Suldaledhel Eru's Gift Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Where pride pays silver and plays golden Posts: 215	Was Saruman evil.. <font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm Posts: 256</TD><TD><img src=http://suldalpic.homestead.com/files/00004.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE> Or was he simply deluded and tricked by the overwhelming nature of Sauron? Whenever I think about this, I recall the scene from Orthanc, after being thoroughly defeated, Sarumen cant leave, but cant stay. Being trapped by his own dishonesty towards both Gandalf and company, and Sauron. I still think of this and wonder, was Saruman genuinely evil? Or was he rather deluded by the prospect of the ring, which he had studied about, coming into his power? Anyone? “I have been a fierce bull and a yellow buck. I have been a boat upon the sea. I have been the foam of water. I have been a drop in the air. I have journeyed as high as an eagle. I have been at the throne of the distributor. I have stood high upon the white hill. I was fluent before being gifted with speech. I have been teacher to all intelligences. I have singly built the tower of Nimrhod. I am the tetragrammaton. I am a wonder whose origin is not know, and I shall be until the day of doom upon the earth…” -=I may be found merrymaking at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/>The Barrow Downs</a> or telling stories at <a href=http://pub58.ezboard.com/bsuldalskeep>Sûldal's Keep</a> </p>

03-16-2001, 05:30 AM	#2
*Gilthalion* Hobbitus Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: South Farthing Posts: 635	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 174</TD><TD><img src=http://home.att.net/~robertwgardner/lotrmap.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Was Saruman evil.. When I think of Saruman at Bag End, the answer is emphatically, yes! Nothing that is evil was created so. And the evil of mortals can be forgiven in repentance and redemption (at least in Tolkien's worldview, and mine). But the evil of eternal creatures is a decision they make that has ramifications beyond the bounds of Time. But once within Time, perhaps they are subject to the same choices as Men. Hence, Gandalf's plea to Saruman to repent, and Saruman's wavering refusal. He chose evil again that day. And never repented of it. Even Sauron is thought to have been genuinely repentant for a time... (Elves, I think, are immortal creatures, rather than eternal, and thus are more like Men in this regard. They can repent of their evil choices and seek to correct them.) <center> *~~~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Bare Bones Webpage</a>~~~* </center></p> __________________ Please read my fan fiction novel THE HOBBITS. Wanna hear me read Tolkien? Gilthalion's Grand Adventures!

03-16-2001, 07:23 AM	#3
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,381	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist Posts: 747</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Was Saruman evil.. I agree with Gilthalion. Saruman was not evil to begin with but slowly became corrupted by his own desire for power and control. At first he deluded himself into believing that he continued to work towards the goals of the Istari, but later dropped even this pretense. Between LoTR and UT it appears Saruman became corrupted by his own desires well prior to the first time he looked into the Palantir. --Mithadan-- "The Silmarils with living light were kindled clear, and waxing bright shone like stars that in the North above the reek of earth leap forth." </p> __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

03-16-2001, 11:52 PM	#4
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path Posts: 489</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Evil As a Maia he had no excuse. He was seduced by the very reason he came to M-E. truly tragic.Gilthalion's immortal/Eternal distinctions are to my mind right on and reflect the difference between angels and humans in Christian theology that JRRT was using to form the parameters of M-E. </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

03-17-2001, 08:35 AM	#7
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path Posts: 493</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> also He seems also to have come close moments before his death, when he realized that frodo did truly respect him and that frodo had grown great among the wise even as he had fallen, I imagine Gandalf was on some level aware of Saruman at this moment only a short distance away at Bombadillo's and may well have striven w/ saruman ,encouraging him to repent, even as he encouraged frodo to take off the ring. saruman of course was still unable to shake of the grip of ultimately Morgoth which belittles acts of love and pity and chokes off even reason and the insict for survival. saruman died and his spirit was not allowed to return to the west. I would imagine that as a maia he would in time be able to take shape again unless his spirit was literally dissipated to gratly as seems to be the case w/ Sauron. what sadness there must have been in Valinor and in Mithrandir's heart. well let us look to our selves. Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns and working on his own board Osanwe-Kenta[/i]- 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

03-17-2001, 01:21 AM	#5
Elenanna Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 98	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit Posts: 93</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Evil yes, Saruman definately had no excuse as to turning like that, but the tragic thing is he really wasnt evil in the very beginning. He just got rather jealous of Gandalf and spiteful and proud etc. he just built up that jealousy and it was what helped turn him when Sauron talked to him.also in UT it says that Varda said not the third and Curumo heard this and remembered it. that was probably the first straw. Visit me at <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/blorien16140>Lorien</a> friend of <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/bamongwareth>Amon Gwareth</a> and <a href=http://pub2.ezboard.com/brivendel>Rivendel</a> find my corpse at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi>The Barrowdowns</a> </p>

03-17-2001, 04:45 AM	#6
Hannah 3 Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 64	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones Posts: 22</TD><TD><img src=http--images.neopets.com-images-newfirefaerie.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Evil Yes; even though Sauron seemed really the best, Varda did say Gandalf wouldn't go as the third-best. She saw something then, and later so did the person who gave Gandalf the ring, and so on. It just built up and up and by the end Saruman was evil. In the Orthanc was his last chance at I think he was savable; could have repented and made up for it - but when he rejected it he gave up everything that was good and wise in him and became fully, totally evil. ~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>

03-17-2001, 01:10 PM	#8
Lady Eowyn Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 98	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 116</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: also I was always wondering what exactly "made" or better turned Saruman to evil. Sauron? the Ring? The need for power? Any thoughts?? And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom</p>

03-17-2001, 02:00 PM	#9
Suldaledhel Eru's Gift Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Where pride pays silver and plays golden Posts: 215	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm Posts: 261</TD><TD><img src=http://suldalpic.homestead.com/files/00004.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: also I always thought it was his own thirst (or hunger) for personal power, that eventually drove him to become evil... “I have been a fierce bull and a yellow buck. I have been a boat upon the sea. I have been the foam of water. I have been a drop in the air. I have journeyed as high as an eagle. I have been at the throne of the distributor. I have stood high upon the white hill. I was fluent before being gifted with speech. I have been teacher to all intelligences. I have singly built the tower of Nimrhod. I am the tetragrammaton. I am a wonder whose origin is not know, and I shall be until the day of doom upon the earth…” -=I may be found merrymaking at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/>The Barrow Downs</a> or telling stories at <a href=http://pub58.ezboard.com/bsuldalskeep>Sûldal's Keep</a> </p>

03-17-2001, 02:37 PM	#10
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,037	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 156</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: also Saruman's close study of Sauron played a large part in his turn to evil. Was it Elrond who said <blockquote>*Quote:*<hr> "It is perilous to study too deeply the arts of the Enemy"<hr></blockquote>? Saruman spent most of his time learning about Sauron and various dark things. That plus the jealousy he already felt torward Gandalf caused him to desire power. And power for its own sake is always a trait of evil in ME. Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p> __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

03-17-2001, 11:59 PM	#11
Elenanna Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 98	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit Posts: 96</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: also yeah i think its elrond that said it Visit me at <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/blorien16140>Lorien</a> friend of <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/bamongwareth>Amon Gwareth</a> and <a href=http://pub2.ezboard.com/brivendel>Rivendel</a> find my corpse at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi>The Barrowdowns</a> </p>