Obscure Topics of the Legendarium

[Corsair_Caruso]

Tolkien's notes of the personages and history of his Legendarium are far ranging and include countless characters, events, lands, peoples, creatures, cultures, languages, etc... The most developed areas of the Legendarium are (arguably) the parts that saw publication in his lifetime: the War of the Ring and the events in the century beforehand. Following that, the events of the Wars of the Jewels are the most detailed, though that is much less consistent due to the death of the Professor before he could finish a final, definitive version of the Elder Days. Still, we have quite a bit to work from. The events of the Third Age as a whole might be as developed as this, especially when we combine the incomplete narratives of Unfinished Tales with the Appendices of RotK and the unpublished notes regarding them found in latter volumes of the HoMe.

Following that I'd say the Second Age has the most development, but this is really quite spotty, with really only a general outline, one or two narratives and some essays.

Then we have various fragments, notes, and other unpublished material from various other time periods, as well as earlier iterations of the Legendarium that give us hints as to the Professor's thought process, though little definitive indication as to where he might have gone from there.

What topics, specifically, do you wish the Professor had been able to make a firm decision on? What would you like to know more about? What people, or cultures, or historical events have you read about that leave you wanting more information?

I, for one, would like to know more about Númenor, across the board. Culture, language, history, personages of import, everything. That's very broad, but hey, I find the entire concept fascinating and I wish it could have been explored much more thoroughly.

I also would like to be able to read some narratives from the early Third Age, or even the late Second Age, set in the early years of Arnor and Gondor. I want to know more about how the two kingdoms were organized, the interactions between the colonists and the ships bearing the news of Númenor's destruction. I want to know the circumstances under which he ancestors of the Princes of Dol Amroth gained their title from Elendil. I want accounts of the foundation of Osgiliath, Minas Anor and Minas Ithil. I want to hear the tale of the construction of Isengard and Orthanc. There is so much more I wish I could know and read.

I think I'd also like to know a lot more about the Black Númenóreans in Umbar, how their culture functioned in the early years after Númenor's destruction. I'd love to hear tell of their rejection of the claim of the House of Andúnië on the kingship of the colonies. Did they retain Adûnaic as their daily speech, and if so, for how long? Was their a creole that grew up out of a blend of Haradic elements with Adûnaic? How long did the Black Númenoreans retain their dominance in Umbar's culture. What went on in the colonies farther south? Where was Beruthiel from and what prompted Tarannon Falastur to forge a political alliance via marriage?

I guess you could summarize my specific interests at this point into the overarching topic of "Númeóreans and the cultures descended from them." I find them perhaps even more fascinating than Elves, and I find Elves exceedingly interesting.

But I've gone on way too long. What interests you? Elvish culture? Dwarvish language? Inheritance laws in societies that experience both immortality and (essentially) reincarnation? Religion in Arda? What topics do you wish you could know more about, and what do you think and/or theorize about them now?

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Corsair_Caruso

snip<--What topics, specifically, do you wish the Professor had been able to make a firm decision on? What would you like to know more about? What people, or cultures, or historical events have you read about that leave you wanting more information?

Definitely want to know more about Numenorean presence in the longer-term mythology. The Caves of the Forgotten had implication, and we saw The Stone of Erech as an example of what Tolkien sometimes did with breaks of Oaths of Fealty.

And beyond that - I would love to have seen The Second Prophesy of Mandos developed where, in one reading, the earth is broken after The Last Battle and the Silmarils gathered, and returned by Feanor to Yavanna, for a Rekindling of the Two Trees. I read just the other day that the Numenoreans of the Caves of the Forgotten get called to lend a hand.

I, for one, would like to know more about Númenor, across the board. Culture, language, history, personages of import, everything. That's very broad, but hey, I find the entire concept fascinating and I wish it could have been explored much more thoroughly.

More about their Lore. Their blades were sometimes woven with their variation on spells, in a tantalising glimpse we saw in Merry's blade of the Westernesse and its power, over even the Nazgul.

And DEFINITELY, I'd have totally loved to have known much, much more about Silmarien and her world, bearing and home. The Ring of Barahir she bore through her bloodline.

....I want to know the circumstances under which he ancestors of the Princes of Dol Amroth gained their title from Elendil. I want accounts of the foundation of Osgiliath, Minas Anor and Minas Ithil. I want to hear the tale of the construction of Isengard and Orthanc. There is so much more I wish I could know and read.

Gilmith - Starmist - sister of the Founding Father of Dol Amroth. I wanted to know her story, for she had such a beautiful name. Did she bear children, and was there her lineage somewhere in Dol Amroth.

I think I'd also like to know a lot more about the Black Númenóreans in Umbar, how their culture functioned in the early years after Númenor's destruction. I'd love to hear tell of their rejection of the claim of the House of Andúnië on the kingship of the colonies. Did they retain Adûnaic as their daily speech, and if so, for how long? Was their a creole that grew up out of a blend of Haradic elements with Adûnaic? How long did the Black Númenoreans retain their dominance in Umbar's culture. What went on in the colonies farther south? Where was Beruthiel from and what prompted Tarannon Falastur to forge a political alliance via marriage?

Yes - those fellas were pretty full on in their rivalry with the northern realms of Arnor and Gondor.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Corsair_Caruso

But I've gone on way too long. What interests you? Elvish culture? Dwarvish language? Inheritance laws in societies that experience both immortality and (essentially) reincarnation? Religion in Arda? What topics do you wish you could know more about, and what do you think and/or theorize about them now?

I would devour an entire trilogy on the eastern exploits of the two Blue Wizards.

[Orphalesion]

I'd love to have a whole book of lore about Eldamar. Detailed maps, the different cultures of the Elven tribes and what other settlements might have existed besides Tirion and Alqualonde.
What did Findis and Irime do? Did thy marry and have children? What other members of the Finwean household were forgotten by time?
How do the Elves in the blessed realm go about daily tasks? Do they have an economy, what other important families or clans existed in Eldamar? What was the weather like? The landscape? Flora? Fauna?

And the same for the Elven Realms of the Exiles; was Hithlum a rather dry and desolate moor landscape like I have always imagined? What were the names and locations of the civilian settlements in the Feanorian lands? Lindon? Eregion? Dorwinion?

And more details about the Avari and the realms of Elf and Man east of the Blue Mountains that Sauron destroyed in the Second Age.

[Aiwendil]

There are, of course, many, many things I'd like to know more about, but I'll try to limit myself to naming a few of the bigger ones.

Like Corsair_caruso and Ivriniel, I would love to have to have more writings about the Numenoreans and, particularly, Numenor during the Second Age. I enjoyed 'Aldarion and Erendis' not only for the story itself but also for the unique window it provides into Numenorean life. I would love more stories set in and around Numenor.

Andsigil mentioned the Blue Wizards, and I'd certainly devour a trilogy about them as well. But the wizard who really fascinates me, for some reason, is Radagast (hence my name). I would really love to have more information about him and his activities.

It might sound odd to say that I'd like to know more about Sauron - I mean, after all, he's not exactly an obscure character - but I really would like to have more writings about Silmarillion-era Sauron, the cunning sorcerer, lord of werewolves, master of phantoms. What was Tol-in-Gaurhoth like, for example? What strange and terrible things went on in Taur-nu-Fuin after Sauron took up living there? For that matter, I wouldn't mind knowing more about his other 'Necromancer' phase, in Dol Guldur. I'd also like to know what Sauron was up to during the last years of the First Age, and whether he played any part in the Great Battle.

I'd like to know more about Eol - both about his origins and about his strange relationship with Aredhel. I wish Tolkien had made a clear decision on whether he was a kinsman of Thingol or a Tatyarin Avar.

I'd like to know more about the seven clans of Dwarves - even just knowing whether the Firebeards lived in Nogrod and the Broadbeams in Belegost or vice versa!

I'd also like to know more about the Druedain in the First Age. For that matter, about the people of Haleth in general. 'The Wanderings of Hurin' makes them an intriguing, proto-Democratic people, and there are hints of unusual gender equity.

The other night I had a wonderful dream that I was in a bookstore and happened upon The History of Middle-earth volumes XIII and XIV. If such books existed, those are some of the things I'd most hope to find in them.

[Orphalesion]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

The other night I had a wonderful dream that I was in a bookstore and happened upon The History of Middle-earth volumes XIII and XIV. If such books existed, those are some of the things I'd most hope to find in them.

I'd love a Middle-Earth version of "A World of Ice and Fire" or better yet a bunch of them. One written from the perspective of Pengolodh at the Mouths of Sirion and one by a Gondorian scholar living during the reign of Elessar II.

[Mithadan]

I always found Pengolodh (and Aelfwine), both as a narrative device and a character, to be very compelling and entertaining. I am not entirely sure what JRRT decided about these two persons, though both appear very late in his writings. I'd like to hear more about both (and I have, of course, written more about Aelfwine, though, grievously, our fan fiction forum is down and perhaps out.

[Bêthberry]

I would like to know what Tolkien's diary--which has not been published--has to say about the Legendarium, assuming the diary was written during the early years of its development, as well as if it mentions anything about Tolkien's interest in nonsense, which seems related more to his early works and minor works rather than anything in The Silm.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I would devour an entire trilogy on the eastern exploits of the two Blue Wizards.

Echo copy ditto Whatever happened to them? We hear a tantalising snippet 'fell into Sorcery', which is somehow different to Lore, Pukel Men and their magic and Elvish Magic. Does anybody know anything about this area?

One written from the perspective of Pengolodh at the Mouths of Sirion and one by a Gondorian scholar living during the reign of Elessar II.

Yeah, what happened to the five kids? They must have been exceptional in many ways, and each of them almost wholly half-Elven! Did any of them fix the Anor Stone?

Detailed maps, the different cultures of the Elven tribes and what other settlements might have existed besides Tirion and Alqualonde.
What did Findis and Irime do? Did thy marry and have children? What other members of the Finwean household were forgotten by time?
How do the Elves in the blessed realm go about daily tasks? Do they have an economy, what other important families or clans existed in Eldamar? What was the weather like? The landscape? Flora? Fauna?

And the same for the Elven Realms of the Exiles; was Hithlum a rather dry and desolate moor landscape like I have always imagined? What were the names and locations of the civilian settlements in the Feanorian lands? Lindon? Eregion? Dorwinion?

Yes very. I'll add Mithlond and whatever happened to the Elves there, and how many Elves lived there at end of TA. And Edhellond.

I'd like to know more about Eol - both about his origins and about his strange relationship with Aredhel. I wish Tolkien had made a clear decision on whether he was a kinsman of Thingol or a Tatyarin Avar

Yes - I want to know more about what Morgoth actually did to Maeglin when Maeglin was captured. All we know is that he came back all creepy, but we don't know what Morgoth's tools were. And I'd like to know more about the relationship between Morgoth and Sauron.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Yeah, what happened to the five kids? They must have been exceptional in many ways, and each of them almost wholly half-Elven! Did any of them fix the Anor Stone?

I'm curious about the 'five kids' you're talking about here, Ivriniel. Are you talking about Aragorn and Arwen's children? All we know about them is that there were at least three: one son, Eldarion, who succeeded their father as king, and at least two daughters. I say 'at least' because all we have to go on is the plural 'daughters'.

[Kuruharan]

Just more about dwarves, please.

[Orphalesion]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

I'm curious about the 'five kids' you're talking about here, Ivriniel. Are you talking about Aragorn and Arwen's children? All we know about them is that there were at least three: one son, Eldarion, who succeeded their father as king, and at least two daughters. I say 'at least' because all we have to go on is the plural 'daughters'.

Hmmm strange...I could have sworn that it was five as well (Edarion and four girls) seems to be a fairly common form of fanon.

[Belegorn]

That's a lot of kids for someone like Aragorn.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I would like to know what Tolkien's diary--which has not been published--has to say about the Legendarium, assuming the diary was written during the early years of its development, as well as if it mentions anything about Tolkien's interest in nonsense, which seems related more to his early works and minor works rather than anything in The Silm.

Unfortunately Tolkien's diary, like most else, was only written in sporadically, for short periods and then set aside. Also it appears that he only turned to it when he was feeling especially depressed, and it was concerned with his real life and very personal matters, not the legendarium.

Humphrey Carpenter was allowed to read it, and all that had bearing on his fiction (very very little) appears in Carpenter's biography.

[Mithalwen]

I wonder if there would be an expanded edition of the letters though. There must surely be more that has become relevant because of the publication of HoME?

I would dearly love to know more about Gil-galad, not just a definitive resolution of the "Whose the Daddy?" issue, but he ruled a huge area for an age of the world and the hints are tantalising.

[Belegorn]

I don't know if it's much but I believe there's a letter Gil-galad wrote to the King of Númenor in Aldarion and Erendis.

[Mithalwen]

That is one of the tantalising hints.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Orphalesion

Hmmm strange...I could have sworn that it was five as well (Edarion and four girls) seems to be a fairly common form of fanon.

I've seen that myself in fanfiction; but I've also seen absolutely no evidence of Tolkien writing about that number of children. That said, there's nothing to say that Aragorn and Arwen didn't actually have five. It's just that people should be careful not to confuse what's in fanfiction with what Tolkien actually wrote.

I remember reading a nice story about Faramir and Éowyn, which included them having three children: their son Elboron and two named daughters. I enjoyed it, but while reading, made the distinction between the writer's imagination and what I read in Volume 12 of HoME.

[Orphalesion]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

I've seen that myself in fanfiction; but I've also seen absolutely no evidence of Tolkien writing about that number of children. That said, there's nothing to say that Aragorn and Arwen didn't actually have five. It's just that people should be careful not to confuse what's in fanfiction with what Tolkien actually wrote.

I remember reading a nice story about Faramir and Éowyn, which included them having three children: their son Elboron and two named daughters. I enjoyed it, but while reading, made the distinction between the writer's imagination and what I read in Volume 12 of HoME.

No I agree. It was one of those things were fanon seemed so universally accepted that I confused it with offical canon. The parts of the Legendarium dealing with mortals (particularly Numenor) never interested me as much so my knowledge has some gaps on that topic.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I would dearly love to know more about Gil-galad, not just a definitive resolution of the "Whose the Daddy?" issue, but he ruled a huge area for an age of the world and the hints are tantalising.

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I don't know if it's much but I believe there's a letter Gil-galad wrote to the King of Númenor in Aldarion and Erendis.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

That is one of the tantalising hints.

I've documented my opinion on the parentage of Gil-galad in an essay I'm writing on Galadriel, in an attempt to come up with a consistent history for her and her family.

Taken from Corsair_Caruso's essay, left unquoted (for the most part) for ease of quoting in response

Gil-galad's ancestry is somewhat of a contentious issue. In The War of the Jewels, C. Tolkien stated that Gil-galad as Fingon's son was "adopted after much hesitation," and that it "was not in fact by any means the last of my father’s speculations?" Later, in The Peoples of Middle-earth, C. Tolkien stated that Gil-galad as the son of Fingon (as given in The Silmarillion and referenced in the letter from Gil-galad to Tar-Meneldur in Aldarion and Erendis) was an outright error.

Apparently Gil-galad's ancestry was as problematic for the Tolkiens as it has been for his readers. C. Tolkien states that Gil-galad's parentage changed many times throughout his father's writing process. He was alternatively the son of Fingon, Finrod, or Orodreth. The changing of other characters' placement on the family tree, including Orodreth's, didn't help either.
C. Tolkien reports that in 1965, "my father suggested that the best solution to the problem of Gil-galad's heritage was to find him in 'the son of Orodreth'..." who in this text is described as "Finrod's kinsman and steward," and Gil-galad subsequently called "the son of Arothir, nephew of Finrod," with Arothir being an alternate name for Orodreth. Finduilas' parentage was unamended by Tolkien, and thus she became Gil-galad's sister.

C. Tolkien was quite firm that this assertion superseded that published in The Silmarillion:

There can be no doubt that thus was my father's last word on the subject; but nothing of this late and radically altered conception ever touched the existing narratives, and it was obviously impossible to incorporate it into the published Silmarillion.
[...]
Much closer analysis of the admittedly extremely complex material than I had made twenty years ago makes it clear that Gil-galad as the son of Fingon was an ephemeral idea.

So, C. Tolkien admits that he chose not to include this change, though it was clear that his father had firmly changed his mind on the subject, and furthermore that the parentage included in The Silmarillion would have been different as a result of closer study of his father's notes.

Those familiar with Aldarion and Erendis in Unfinished Tales will remember that the salutation in Gil-galad's letter to Tar-Meneldur begins with "Ereinion Gil-galad son of Fingon," but C. notes that this was an editorial choice on his part, with the original text being "Finellach Gil-galad of the House of Finarfin."

C. Tolkien's statements to the error of the earlier stated and more widely known parentage of Gil-galad and Orodreth notwithstanding, he retained the genealogy as stated in The Silmarillion for the publication of The Children of Húrin. Nonetheless, I have chosen to make the suggested alterations for the purposes of any of my Arda narratives, thus...

Finarfin's son are Finrod (died without issue), Aegnor (died without issue, due in part to his love for the mortal woman Andreth), and Angrod. Angrod was the father of Orodreth, who succeeded his uncle Finrod as king of Nargothrond, and whose children were Finduilas and Gil-galad. This, in my opinion, also clears up the issue of inheritance of the High-Kingship of the Noldor in Exile. While Gil-galad was the son of Fingon, it left people scrambling for justification as to why Turgon inherited the title of High-King when Fingon died, rather than his ostensible son, Gil-galad, leading some to claim that the inheritance must have gone first to brothers before sons. This, while possible, seems to me inelegant. With Gil-galad as the son of Orodreth, we have a much more traditional line of inheritance.

Fingolfin >son> Fingon (died without issue) >brother, next oldest son of Fingolfin> Turgon (died without a son) >closest relative by male descent/first-cousin twice removed>Ereinion Gil-galad.

end

So, I'm convinced that Gil-galad should be regarded the son of Orodreth, who is the son of Angrod, with the above as evidence.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Corsair_Caruso

I've documented my opinion on the parentage of Gil-galad in an essay I'm writing on Galadriel, in an attempt to come up with a consistent history for her and her family.

I would be interested to see this, even in outline form, as (I guess) I've done something like it myself, although many years ago now. I centered on Galadriel and Celeborn. And I should add two things: one, considering that I can be a pedantic son of a boar, and two, considering some of the posthumously published confusion here (to add to some author published confusion)...

... well, I might disagree with some of your stuff, that's all.

Might. But I'm still interested

So, C. Tolkien admits that he chose not to include this change, though it was clear that his father had firmly changed his mind on the subject, and furthermore that the parentage included in The Silmarillion would have been different as a result of closer study of his father's notes.

Here's that pedantic part I told you about: wasn't the conclusion, in any case, that Christopher Tolkien felt that it would have been better if he had left Gil-galad's parentage obscure. And not that you said otherwise, but I took that to mean: "that's what I would do if I could do it over again."

C. Tolkien's statements to the error of the earlier stated and more widely known parentage of Gil-galad and Orodreth notwithstanding, he retained the genealogy as stated in The Silmarillion for the publication of The Children of Húrin.

Hmm, two pedantic thingies from me in one post! But I sometimes point out that while Christopher Tolkien retained the "old" version in that Orodreth [Arothir] is Galadriel's brother and Gil-galad is missing in Finarfin's line, he also left Gil-galad out of the tree with Fingon too. In other words Fingon appears to have no son in this tree.

Interesting perhaps, when one considers Christopher Tolkien's comment in HME about leaving the matter obscure.

Unless I've missed another reference!

[Zigûr]

I personally think the placement of Gil-galad as the son of Orodreth, son of Angrod, works quite well, and it's a shame that Christopher Tolkien didn't feel up to the task of incorporating the revised genealogy into the published Silmarillion, although I appreciate that it would have been tricky, and more importantly still would have (in his view) further compromised the authenticity of the text. I suppose that goes back to the idea of whether a completed Silmarillion edited by another person or simply publishing the drafts as they were was more representative of the narrative.

In another sense, I like that the High Kingship of the Noldor in Middle-earth ultimately passes to the House of Finarfin as it means that each House, however briefly in the case of Fëanor's, held the Kingship in Middle-earth at one point. I also think it suits Gil-galad's character quite nicely that he derived from the House of Finarfin, given that he mistrusted Sauron and so forth. Lindon being ruled by the great-grandson of Finarfin while Eregion is ruled by the grandson of Fëanor sets up an interesting dynamic, I think.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Galin

I would be interested to see this, even in outline form, as (I guess) I've done something like it myself, although many years ago now. I centered on Galadriel and Celeborn. And I should add two things: one, considering that I can be a pedantic son of a boar, and two, considering some of the posthumously published confusion here (to add to some author published confusion)...

... well, I might disagree with some of your stuff, that's all.

Might. But I'm still interested

I'm happy to show my work once it's done. Right now all my books are packed for a move this week, then I've got my sister's wedding, so it'll be a bit before I can sit down and actually work on this essay again. However, I do feel the need to make a general disclaimer. As I understand the work currently to exist, a true, full, and detailed history of Galadriel and her family can't really be compiled without editorial decisions made by an editor. Though I'll defer in some cases to Christopher Tolkien, he seems to have judged even himself unequal to the task of consolidating his father's notes into a comprehensive timeline of events that is both detailed and self-consistent.

Thus, I'll be making decisions based on the Tolkiens' work, but if I find certain events irreconcilable or sufficiently (needlessly) complicating, I'll probably discard one and make a decision based on my own opinion and best judgment. This final timeline may be as much a reflection of my own sensibilities anything else. I won't make up events that Tolkien didn't supply, but if I find they contribute to the most compelling narrative, I may blend events from one to another.

Some may accuse me of cherry picking. That may be; I do love cherries.

Now... in the course of this research, I may find that my editorial opinion is seldom needed, which honestly is my hope. And even when I do insert my own decision making into the effort, I'm open to persuasion. But I am not going to hold myself to quite the same standard as our friends are in the complete Silmarillion sub-forum.

The more scholastically oriented portion of the essay will likely be the part that interests you, and that may be all I include here, as it will include my thoughts and justifications for why I consider what sections to be definitive over others. If you're interested at all in the final product, which is (essentially) a semi-narrative timeline of the life of Galadriel and her extended family, by all means I'll include it, but I'm willing to bet most here will consider it little better, if at all, than fan-fiction.

Originally Posted by Galin

Here's that pedantic part I told you about: wasn't the conclusion, in any case, that Christopher Tolkien felt that it would have been better if he had left Gil-galad's parentage obscure. And not that you said otherwise, but I took that to mean: "that's what I would do if I could do it over again."

You're quite right, that is indeed what Christopher Tolkien said he wished he had done, but I am glad he didn't. Honestly, such an important personage in Elven history, most especially of the Second Age, deserves a parentage listed in the genealogies. With the genealogy of the Noldorin Kings in Exile so carefully detailed, to include a High-King whose descent from Finwe is undocumented and unattested seems unbelievable. I suppose my response is this: he could have done it, but I don't think he should have. That being said, my opinion is only my opinion. But, that is why I choose to say, "Gil-galad is the son of Orodreth, son of Angrod, son of Finarfin" and not "Well, we simply don't know because there are too many conflicting answers." There is not another significant member in the royal house of the Noldor in Exile whose parentage is left a mystery, and I think to do so only with Gil-galad is insufficient.

Originally Posted by Galin

Hmm, two pedantic thingies from me in one post! But I sometimes point out that while Christopher Tolkien retained the "old" version in that Orodreth [Arothir] is Galadriel's brother and Gil-galad is missing in Finarfin's line, he also left Gil-galad out of the tree with Fingon too. In other words Fingon appears to have no son in this tree.

Interesting perhaps, when one considers Christopher Tolkien's comment in HME about leaving the matter obscure.

Unless I've missed another reference!

It is interesting. I suppose I consider the two matters linked, considering their relation in (what I consider to be) the final, definitive decision in the matter. In my mind, if Orodreth is the son of Finarfin, then Gil-galad is the son of Fingon, but this is an interesting point. Still, the matter seems, at best, unaddressed, and while Gil-galad is not a character involved in the Tale of the Children of Hurin, I think if Christopher Tolkien wanted not to address the matter of the conflicting parentages, he should simply also have called Orodreth Finrod's kinsman and successor, rather than specific him as his brother. I don't see the distinction between the one editorial decision and the other, other than feeling no decision on Gil-galad needed to be made in CoH.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I personally think the placement of Gil-galad as the son of Orodreth, son of Angrod, works quite well, and it's a shame that Christopher Tolkien didn't feel up to the task of incorporating the revised genealogy into the published Silmarillion, although I appreciate that it would have been tricky, and more importantly still would have (in his view) further compromised the authenticity of the text. I suppose that goes back to the idea of whether a completed Silmarillion edited by another person or simply publishing the drafts as they were was more representative of the narrative.

In another sense, I like that the High Kingship of the Noldor in Middle-earth ultimately passes to the House of Finarfin as it means that each House, however briefly in the case of Fëanor's, held the Kingship in Middle-earth at one point. I also think it suits Gil-galad's character quite nicely that he derived from the House of Finarfin, given that he mistrusted Sauron and so forth. Lindon being ruled by the great-grandson of Finarfin while Eregion is ruled by the grandson of Fëanor sets up an interesting dynamic, I think.

So, a question... Did Maedhros forefeit the claim of the House of Fëanor on the High-Kingship, or did he withdraw his contest to the claims of the other Houses, and thus subordinate the House of Fëanor to the other two lines of Finwe, thereby establishing the supremacy of Fingolfin (who had the greater following, was the next oldest in line, and had already been exercising the Kingship of the Noldor in place of his father for years while Fëanor and Finwe were in exile)? My question is, could the House of Fëanor have claimed the High-Kingship in the case of the extinction of the other two houses and an extant Noldorin population still cohesive enough to maintain a kingdom.

Such a hypothetical situation might have been the survival of Celebrimbor but the death of Gil-galad, who had no heirs. Would Celebrimbor have had a legal right to make a claim on the High-Kingship in the event of the end of other male-line descendants of Finwe in Middle-earth?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

(...) I also think it suits Gil-galad's character quite nicely that he derived from the House of Finarfin, given that he mistrusted Sauron and so forth. Lindon being ruled by the great-grandson of Finarfin while Eregion is ruled by the grandson of Fëanor sets up an interesting dynamic, I think.

I agree. For me one of the problems with Gil-galad the Finarfinian is the matter of Nargothrond, Finduilas and Turin. I'm not saying the problems could not have been solved, but adding Gil-galad here does create a "need" in my opinion, to settle a few matters.

There's a thread about this, not here but here...

http://forums.theonering.com/viewtop...?f=27&t=104639

[Galin]

As I understand the work currently to exist, a true, full, and detailed history of Galadriel and her family can't really be compiled without editorial decisions made by an editor.

If trying to incorporate posthumously published materials, as I did, I had to make a lot of decisions based upon my own ideas about canon, my number one rule there being: author published material takes prime standing and trumps conflicting material. This consideration, while nicely weeding out some late material, is not going to smooth out all the bumps or answer all the questions however.

I found that my own Galadriel and Celeborn timeline is generally noted here in a thread at Barrow Downs, but interestingly, now I don't agree with all of it! One reason is that my mind is changing about the introduction of the mallorn trees, and I'm starting to question the whole later concept.

Heresy I know

I'm actually starting to prefer what I think was Tolkien's original idea: the mallorn trees grew "magically" and naturally in Lorien with the exception of the one in the Shire (later). Granted it's a bit misty, but specifically giving Galadriel the "power" (as Tolkien appears to later) to grow them in Middle-earth raises questions about why she did not, or could not, grow them anywhere else (in the long years before Amroth's death) West of the Misty Mountains.

I mean, in tandem with the fact that Lorien was not her realm to look after until well into the Third Age, after Amroth's passing.

Anyway, that's just one example of my madness

[Mithalwen]

I don't find the Orodreth option satisfactory. I appreciate that this is really an instinctive / emotional response in me that Orodreth just seems so, well, feeble to have sired Gil-galad. In addition, while I realise he might have been a child at the time but it makes Finduilas' comment to Turin rather insulting. Though placing him in the line of Fingolfin has some attractions, Finrod seems much more fitting in character and behaviour let alone fate. But then there is the poignancy of Finrod leaving his beloved....

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I don't find the Orodreth option satisfactory. I appreciate that this is really an instinctive / emotional response in me that Orodreth just seems so, well, feeble to have sired Gil-galad.

I agree. Perhaps it could be rationalized that the awesomesauce skipped a generation in this case or that Gil-galad learned from his father's mistakes.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, as CT said, none of the later genealogy ever made its way into narrative, which he was loath to rewrite too much except in extremis. We are left with the bizarre circumstance that the whole time Turin was living in Nargothrond as Orodreth's No 2 and Finduilas' object of affection- yet the king's son Gil-Galad isn't there? And mind you, this state of affairs was written in the Narn material during the later 1950s, it's not ancient QN stuff.

Nor can we use the dodge that Gil-Galad was "sent away to Balar," really; why on earth would that have been the case when Nargothrond was (so they thought) at the height of its power and impregnability?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

(...) In addition, while I realise he might have been a child at the time but it makes Finduilas' comment to Turin rather insulting.

Hmm, but that line, I think, would have been altered or lifted out, if Tolkien had fully written the new idea in.

Stripping Finduilas of part of her line to Turin does not seem that invasive (not that you said it was), and this does not occur in QS itself if I recall correctly. I assume you are referring to: 'But you are kingly,' said she, 'even as the lords of the people of Fingolfin; I would I had a brother so valiant.' from The Children of Hurin.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

(...) Nor can we use the dodge that Gil-Galad was "sent away to Balar," really; why on earth would that have been the case when Nargothrond was (so they thought) at the height of its power and impregnability?

As I know you know, in alterations made to QS, where Gil-galad is Felagund's son, Felagund, fearing that all strong places were doomed to fall, sends away his wife Meril to her own folk in Eglorest, and their child ('yet an Elvenchild') Gil-galad.

And another note: 'But forseeing evil he [Felagund] demanded Orodreth to send away his son Gil-galad, and wife.' This was struck out, but yet a third note states that the wife of Felagund '... forsook the folk of Nargothrond and went with her son Gilgalad to the Havens of the Falas.' And this forsaking of Nargothrond seemingly takes place when Orodreth expells Celegorn and Curufin from Nargothrond.

The note in which Fingon becomes King of the Noldor and sends his son Gil-galad to the Havens [compared to the 1977 Silmarillion, the line reads: ['… Fingon took the lordship of the house of Fingolfin and the kingdom of the Noldor. [Late penciled addition: But his young son (?Findor) [sic] Gilgalad he sent to the Havens]' War of the Jewels. p. 56] is present on the GA typescript, itself dating to 1958.

So the external progression seems to be:

A) Felagund sends his wife and son to the Havens for safety -- A1) or demands that Orodreth do so -- A2) or Felagund's wife forsakes Nargothrond with Gil-galad

B) Then later the idea re-emerges that Gil-galad was sent to the havens, by his father Fingon.

C) Then later again Gil-galad is back as a Finarfinian, but now 'escapes'... I assume escapes the fall of Nargothrond.

C is based on:

Finrod left his wife in Valinor and had no children in exile. Angrod's son was Artaresto, who was beloved by Finrod and escaped when Angrod was slain, and dwelt with Finrod. Finrod made him his 'steward' and he succeeded him in Nargothrond. His Sindarin name was Rodreth (altered to Orodreth because of his love of the mountains). His children were Finduilas and Artanáro = Rodnor later called Gil-galad. (Their mother was a Sindarin lady of the North. She called her son Gil-galad). Rodnor Gil-galad escaped and eventually came to Sirion's Mouth and was King of the Noldor there.

JRRT, August 1965, reproduced in The Shibboleth of Feanor, The Peoples of Middle-Earth

[Formendacil]

It's uncanonical as Mary Sue, but I always liked the idea that Gil-galad was the son of Fingolfin's son Argon (Arakano)--mentioned only in the Shibboleth texts and said to have died just after the crossing of the Helcaraxe. The reason it worked for me is that it allowed the basic outline of the published Silmarillion to remain intact, an outline I have a nostalgia for simply because I encountered it young.

In such a case, Gil-galad is still associated with the House of Fingolfin. It makes sense that the son of Argon would remain with the Elves of Hithlum, but it also makes sense why he'd be skipped over in the succession by Turgon--like others, I found that the hardest point to swallow in the published Silm narrative: the passing over of the House of Fëanor is presented as an aberration, so why isn't the passing over of the House of Fingon treated likewise?

I might also like it for the meta-narrative reason that it keeps Gil-galad's genealogy "obscure"--it's not quite the "left unsaid" that Christopher Tolkien ended up wishing he'd followed, but as Argon sits on both the edge of obscurity and the edge of canonicity, it leaves Gil-galad's parentage sufficiently forgettable that it makes sense to me that his father could be forgotten in the published tales, leaving later, mannish, scholars to speculate if he was the son of Fingon or the son of a Finarfinian.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I don't find the Orodreth option satisfactory. I appreciate that this is really an instinctive / emotional response in me that Orodreth just seems so, well, feeble to have sired Gil-galad. In addition, while I realise he might have been a child at the time but it makes Finduilas' comment to Turin rather insulting. Though placing him in the line of Fingolfin has some attractions, Finrod seems much more fitting in character and behaviour let alone fate. But then there is the poignancy of Finrod leaving his beloved....

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I agree. Perhaps it could be rationalized that the awesomesauce skipped a generation in this case or that Gil-galad learned from his father's mistakes.

Sons need not take after their fathers, in temperament or accomplishments. And honestly, if Gil-galad were not raised around his father, it would seem all the more likely he would share fewer behavioral characteristics than otherwise (though again, not a hard and fast rule). And as for awesomesauce skipping a generation, take a look at the descendants of the Ship-Kings: Atanatar, basically a loser who rode his predecessors coat-tails, followed by two kings who let their nephew/son rule for them. Romendacil II was the first king worth his salt after his great-grandfather, Hyarmendacil I.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

(...) like others, I found that the hardest point to swallow in the published Silm narrative: the passing over of the House of Fëanor is presented as an aberration, so why isn't the passing over of the House of Fingon treated likewise?

But Maedhros waived his claim, so that much is explained I would say. "For Maedhros begged forgiveness for the desertation in Araman; and he waived his claim to kingship over all the Noldor, saying to Fingolfin: ’If there lay no grievance between us, lord, still the kingship would rightly come to you, the eldest here of the house of Finwe, and not the least wise.’"

And I like this explanation for the rest...

'An observation on 'male primogeniture:' I don't think it quite fits the given accounts (any of them) to impose the Salic Law on the Eldarin royal houses. The more I revolve the claim of kingship as it in fact passed (and didn't pass), the more I am convinced that Kingship among the Elves could pass in the female line, but not to a female: she would preserve it for her male descendants. If this is the case then it makes perfect sense why Dior is Thingol's Heir, not Luthien; that Earendil son of Idril rules at the Havens (and that his wife Elwing was not "Queen" of the Sindarin majority there), and that T[olkien] never even considers Galadriel as being a claimant. (Perhaps one reason he dumped Amroth as G & C's son is that Amroth would have suddenly become a claimant- instead, G has a daughter, who has a daughter...whose son Eldarion 'scion of Elves' is considerd the ruler of Middle-earth's remaining Eldar.).

(...) I think that may be it precisely: seniority in age was what mattered, rather than line of descent. G-G was older than Earendil. After all, the Elves' quasi-immortality poses a real problem for the traditional Mannish system of lineal primogeniture- there's always a chance that a child from a senior line to the reigning King could pop up.

(...) Perhaps the law was simply "the eldest male member of the Royal House in Middle-earth." Elves didn't have to worry about an older generation being short-lived! Therefore Turgon would come before GG, no matter who GG's father was, and GG would then be senior to Earendil.'

Solictr

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Galin

But Maedhros waived his claim, so that much is explained I would say. "For Maedhros begged forgiveness for the desertation in Araman; and he waived his claim to kingship over all the Noldor, saying to Fingolfin: ’If there lay no grievance between us, lord, still the kingship would rightly come to you, the eldest here of the house of Finwe, and not the least wise.’"

And I like this explanation for the rest...

And yet, we don't see the High-Kingship of the Noldor passing to Ëarendil, but rather to Gil-galad, who, whatever descent you choose to endorse, is a male-line descendant. I don't buy the age argument, it just seems unconvincing to me; the male-line descent with one exception due to the House of Fëanor being passed over is by far the simplest answer.

And Michael Martinez notes that neither Dior, nor his descendants, ever take the title of Lord of Beleriand or High-King of the Sindar. He is called Thingol's heir, and rules with the authority of expected of the king of Doriath, but is never explicitly given the same titles. Thus, I think we all agree that authority can be inherited through male or female lines, but I think the actual title of High-King is demonstrated only to descend through male-line primogeniture. Saying it might have gone through female lines doesn't really pan out, because it didn't, otherwise Elrond might have become the High-King, as the only male heir of the High-Kings of both the Noldor and Sindar. One can argue he didn't take the High-Kingship because there weren't enough Noldor to use the title, and that argument has merit, but we never see a descendant by female descent taking that title, only wielding reduced or diminished authority usually earned partially by descent, partially by action (Ëarendil, Dior, etc...).

I also don't know where it ever says that Eldarion ruled over the Eldar in middle-earth. Would you mind citing that? My books are packed up right now, so I don't have access to them.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Corsair_Caruso

Sons need not take after their fathers, in temperament or accomplishments.

True but more so in real life than in Tolkien's world where genetics don't seem to work the same way and so many powers, qualities and kudos are inherited.

And how can I phrase this, Orodreth seems too feeble to have sired anyone...

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

True but more so in real life than in Tolkien's world where genetics don't seem to work the same way and so many powers, qualities and kudos are inherited.

And how can I phrase this, Orodreth seems too feeble to have sired anyone...

Right, and I understand that viewpoint, but we have just as many examples of sons either not living up to, or greatly surpassing, their fathers in Tolkien's works that I don't think we could make such a blanket statement.

I mean, I know it's your opinion and so it's not really up for argument, per se. And I'm not really trying to convince you, more just stating my differing opinion, in general.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Corsair_Caruso

And yet, we don't see the High-Kingship of the Noldor passing to Ëarendil, but rather to Gil-galad, who, whatever descent you choose to endorse, is a male-line descendant. I don't buy the age argument, it just seems unconvincing to me; the male-line descent with one exception due to the House of Fëanor being passed over is by far the simplest answer.

As I read your response (so far) it seems not to be an objection based on a fault in Solicitr's argument (as he does explain Earendil versus Gil-galad within his theory), it's rather that you find a different argument simpler.

And if I've got that much right... very well

I also don't know where it ever says that Eldarion ruled over the Eldar in middle-earth. Would you mind citing that? My books are packed up right now, so I don't have access to them.

I'm guessing that it's based on the admittedly misty reference to Arwen being referred to as Queen of Elves and Men (in The Return of The King), maybe coupled with the choice of her son's name: either "son, descendant of the Eldar" (Eldar-ion), or possibly "Elda-prince" (Elda-rion). I don't recall a specific reference to Eldarion either, about that, but anyway my main reason for quoting these opinions was to explain Gil-galad rather than the scenario after his death.

And I think "Solicitr" posts here at the Downs. Not sure though

[Kuruharan]

Perhaps the Elves weren't as systemic in their inheritance laws as we mortals might deem desirable due to the simple fact that they wouldn't have much expectation of inheriting anything. In their mindset, death had to be something of an aberration.

Perhaps they decided the succession on the basis of an ad hocery, "this seems like a good idea."

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Galin

As I read your response (so far) it seems not to be an objection based on a fault in Solictr's argument (as he does explain Earendil versus Gil-galad within his theory), it's rather that you find a different argument simpler.

And if I've got that much right... very well

Essentially. I just remain unconvinced that the theory you've referenced is an inherently superior interpretation of the extant material. I can't give a reason why it couldn't be true, objectively speaking, but neither does it seem to give me an objective reason as to why my current interpretation is patently incorrect.
Similarly, we could, at this time, not objectively disprove that Noldorin inheritance goes first to brothers before moving on to the next generation, which would prove especially convenient for the "son of Fingon" proponents. We don't have any objective, conclusive evidence to the contrary, but I remain unconvinced that such a conclusion is fact. Which is fine! If there were easy answers, it wouldn't be such a contentious topic, which I think we all agree it is.

Originally Posted by Galin

I'm guessing that it's based on the admittedly misty reference to Arwen being referred to as Queen of Elves and Men, maybe coupled with the choice of her son's name: either "son, descendant of the Eldar" (Eldar-ion), or possibly "Elda-prince" (Elda-rion). I don't recall a specific reference to Eldarion either, about that, but anyway my main reason for quoting these opinions was to explain Gil-galad rather than the scenario after his death.

And I think "Solicitr" posts here at the Downs. Not sure though

Interesting. I think, personally, to give him formal authority over the Elves of Middle-earth is probably more an interpretive decision than anything with hard support in the text, but I'd be open to listen to more evidence if you find any.

I know Celeborn remained in Middle-earth for some time, as did the sons of Elrond, who were older than their sister, and as males, would have inherited their own authority from their father rather than submitting to that of the mortal son of their younger sister, King though he be of a vast realm. With lords of such age and authority still around functioning as the continuation of the authority of Elrond and Galadriel (whom, admittedly, ruled with Celeborn, though her power and wisdom were undoubtedly greater), it seems to me that Eldarion probably had more respect and acknowledgment of his status as the most powerful Prince (in the more general sense) in Middle-earth, rather than outright authority.

[Mithalwen]

[QUOTE=Galin;700969]
I'm guessing that it's based on the admittedly misty reference to Arwen being referred to as Queen of Elves and Men (in The Return of The King), maybe coupled with the choice of her son's name: either "son, descendant of the Eldar" (Eldar-ion), or possibly "Elda-prince" (Elda-rion). I don't recall a specific reference to Eldarion either, about that, but anyway my main reason for quoting these opinions was to explain Gil-galad rather than the scenario after his death.

QUOTE]

I think... my "HoME" is in storage too... that this is in a draft of the Tale of Years for the LOTR Appendices. Since it was superseded in a text published in Tolkien pere's lifetime, I don't personally think it is very strong proof ... though it has been used on another thread, and needless to say, not by me, in an attempt to prove that Arwen is more or less the supreme being

Oh and I agree totally with Kuru regarding Elvish inheritance. Furthermore not all monarchies have strict lines of inheritance in our own world. And in Tolkien's, well on another thread, there was some speculation on Eomer's inheritance given that Theoden's older sisters may well have had children