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09-02-2002, 06:38 AM | #1 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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Hope-lessly in love
Isn’t it ironic that Éowyn fell in love hopelessly with a man whose (Elvish) name (Estel) means hope? (Not that she would have known that name… ) It touches me that the love story most vividly described in LotR should be one of unfulfilled love.
Some call it infatuation or a crush; no matter – it is a form of love Éowyn felt, a serious emotion as she experienced it. Who can blame her? Any decent man would have looked good next to Gríma, the one who wanted her and plagued her existence daily. And let’s face it, Aragorn was an unusual specimen – they don’t make them like that nowadays! (If they did, I’d be first in line and fighting to stay there! And yes, I am talking about the book character, not a movie actor.) Who wouldn’t fall for him? What I wonder is, what good came of Éowyn’s unrequited love? Would she have acted differently had she been happy and content, whether in or out of love? Was it the desperation of hopeless love that gave her the recklessness to go to war as a shieldmaiden and perform her great deed? Does love lift the one loving above her/himself even when s/he is not loved in return? Is there any truth to Tennyson’s statement that “It is better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all.”?
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' Last edited by Estelyn Telcontar; 12-04-2004 at 06:49 AM. Reason: correction of smilie codes |
09-02-2002, 08:21 AM | #2 |
Spectre of Decay
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To my mind, Éowyn's "love" for Aragorn is similar in character to Romeo's love for Rosaline: she loves the idea of him as a dashing warrior prince, but Arwen loves the man himself, regardless of who he might be in the world. You tell me which is the more likely to be requited.
As I see it, Éowyn is looking for someone to rescue her from the drudgery of life in Meduseld. She feels trapped by Théoden's dependency and longs for the freedom she enjoyed before the King began to ail; but she can't think what to do about it. Who should come along as she's feeling this way but the closest thing that Middle-earth could have to a film star? Here's a man who can take her away from it all: how can she help but think she loves him? What Tolkien does with this situation is a beautiful piece of ironic satire: instead of sweeping the heroine off into the sunset as she expects, Prince Charming borrows her uncle's horse and leaves again, pausing only to brush off her most unconventional advance. Then we have the truly modern part, where she runs off to war at the instigation of her injured pride, only to find herself in the Houses of Healing, suddenly a war hero in her own right and with no need of any man to rescue her from anything. It's no coincidence that it's then, when she's won her own freedom and been tempered by sorrows more serious than that of rejection, that she finds comfort and support in a deepening friendship with another wounded hero, who has also lost a lot in the war. I see the main message of this story as being that however badly you want something it won't always come to you, and that sometimes what we want isn't really what's good for us anyway. In the end, Aragorn's rejection works out for the best: Éowyn ends up in a social position that affords her the freedom she needs, and in a marriage of equals, where each spouse compliments and supports the other; but if she had got what she wanted, as I have said elsewhere, the results would have been disastrous; both for herself and for everyone else. As for Tennyson's comment: it doesn't really refer to Éowyn: he was talking about a situation where two people are in love and one loses the other, whereas the Lady of Rohan never even knows the man who rejects her, and certainly has no reason to expect him to return her feelings. Even so, Tennyson's famous phrase doesn't quite ring true: perhaps to lose a loved one to death is less terrible than never to have met them, but there are other ways in which to lose that I'm not sure he had experienced. His words have a glib smugness about them that only the Victorians really mastered, but what more can we expect from the poet who wrote heroic verse about one of the greatest blunders in British military history? [ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: Squatter of Amon Rudh ]
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09-02-2002, 04:13 PM | #3 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Seiously though, I never thought of it as love that Eowyn felt, she neve had a chance to get to know Aragorn, so the most she could have felt was a schoolgirl type crush, with little or no real emotion behind it. IMO she saw him a a noble way out of the trap that she felt her life had become. She didn't run off to war simply because he didn't love her, she did it because of her own character and courage, and desire to prove that she was as good as any man of the Rohirrim. I'm not denying her courage or anything like that. When she met Faramir, and got to know him, then true love blossomed, something I don't feel she ever had for Aragorn. Besides all that, if she and Aragorn had got together, things would have turned disastrous when he finally fell off the extremely high pedestal the Eowyn had put him on. She'd have probably ended up wanting to do him in with his own sword. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] |
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09-06-2002, 01:59 PM | #4 |
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Patchogue NY
Posts: 158
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AH! Yes-yes...I think that what Eowyn felt was as the others have said, a crush, for she did not know Aragorn personally. However! One must remember that Aragorn is a legend of Rohan! He had been there and influenced their people. Surely, since he spoke their language, and knew their laws, he must have seemed a Lord of Rohanish ways.
Who would not be taken in by one so obviously loved and respected by all around him? Eowyn did not know that Aragorn was engaged. If she had known this from the beginning, she would not have felt what she did. It's too bad no one told her until she was already smitten. Would she have gone out and killed the Captain of The Nazgul without that fire in her heart? I doubt it. She might have tagged along, and if she had seen Theoden struck down, she might have fought with as much feriousity.. but...something tells me she might have stayed home if she had not met Aragorn.
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09-23-2002, 04:16 AM | #5 | |
Princess of Skwerlz
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Here is Tolkien's own comment on this topic, written by him in Letter 244:
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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09-23-2002, 04:48 AM | #6 |
Stormdancer of Doom
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"The eskimos have fifty different words for "snow" because it's important to them." So as a culture, why don't we have fifty different words for "love"?
If I think of "love" as "loyalty and dedication and admiration and heartfelt affection" then I can easily see Eowyn continuing to love Aragorn; perhaps almost in the same way that she always did, for there was no intimacy nor understanding there, not in the sense that she later had with Faramir. And, she could also have had that same "loyalty and dedication and admiration and heartfelt affection" for Faramir. It would simply have been layered, also, with intimate friendship, and the building of memories and the striving together for common goals, and the other forms (plural) of intimacy developed through time spent together in all the many and varied ways that a married couple spend time together. I would hope that in addition to all of this, Harmony of Spirit would be included, and tenderness; those are things I consider very important to a marriage, and too often the first to fall by the wayside. When these appear external to a marriage, without being included within the marriage, that places a formidable external strain on a marriage. Since Aragorn (as we have seen) is a leader capable of great tenderness toward his subjects, Faramir has his work cut out for him. But I think he's more than up to the task. (Sometimes I do wish that we had fifty words for love. ) [ September 23, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]
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09-25-2002, 10:00 PM | #7 | ||||
Fair and Cold
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Think about it: Aragorn himself became a better man because of his love for Arwen. Quote:
Personal comments aside, I think Tolkien's whole point was that good eventually comes of grief. It's the message I got from the Silmarillion. Overall.
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~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~ |
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09-26-2002, 01:10 PM | #8 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I also don't think that Eowyn truly loved Aragorn -- in his Ranger phase Tolkien (and Aragorn himself) always refers to him as grim and worn in appearance, and this probably appealed to a shield maiden with a death wish and no father. Pesonally, I think Eowyn should have went for Hama, don't you agree, Lush ? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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09-26-2002, 01:33 PM | #9 |
A Ghostly Light
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I think that Eowyn fell in love with the idea of Aragorn, the future king, but fell in love with Faramir as a man.
If you look at Eowyn's family background, she is sort of destined (before Aragorn's arrival) to live always behind the scenes. She couldn't go off and do great deeds herself, and though she had royal blood, she would never be a queen of Rohan or be able to do anything besides care for Theoden or her brother. Therefore, when Aragorn arrived, she began to dream about his great deeds, and of becoming a queen. She didn't necessarily fall in love with Aragorn - she fell in love with his position and title, not to mention looks and courage.
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If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did." |
09-26-2002, 02:35 PM | #10 |
Wight
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Brandy Hall, Buckland, the Eastmarch of the Shire
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Interesting concept on the name...
I love the story of Éowyn!! Despairing existence. Aragorn. Killing the Witch-king. Healing in a remarkable way (one of my favourite chapters). Faramir. One of the best semi-tragedies in literary history, and it occupies only a small part of the trilogy. Ah, the genius of Tolkien.
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09-26-2002, 06:33 PM | #11 | |||
Fair and Cold
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And Elenna, there is truth in what you say.
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~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~ |
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09-27-2002, 12:02 PM | #12 |
Deadnight Chanter
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real romantic hero definitely was Sam [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
09-27-2002, 12:28 PM | #13 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,996
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HerenIstarion,
That's an interesting point, that Sam was a romantic hero. He's the one male who isn't a romanticized hunk like Aragorn and Boromir, in the movie. He doesn't have the aristocratic bloodlines of Aragorn and Faramir. He's kind of like Tom Jones (Henry Fielding's Tom Jones) without the philandering hijinks. The dull, plodding sort, the good guy who finishes ... first. A new kind of romantic hero, since he does get the girl, and a passle of kids. He is an ancient patriarch, sort of. Frodo is the light of the world, but Sam is the salt of the earth. Was Tolkien creating a new vision of hero? Bethberry PS. And, yes, Elenna, I would agree with you about Eowyn's desire for position and power rather than the man himself. [ September 27, 2002: Message edited by: Bethberry ]
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09-27-2002, 02:37 PM | #14 |
Banshee of Camelot
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Switzerland
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I agree with what you all said.
It always seemed to me, that Eowyn`s feelings towards Aragorn were more a kind of hero-worship. I also find Aragorns words at her bed in the houses of healing very touching and wise. "And yet, Eomer, I say to you that she loves you more truly than me; for you she loves and knows; but in me she loves only a shadow and a thought: a hope of glory and great deeds, and lands far from the fields of Rohan"
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Yes! "wish-fulfilment dreams" we spin to cheat our timid hearts, and ugly Fact defeat! |
09-27-2002, 02:51 PM | #15 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
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Wonderful, Guinevere - I had forgotten that Aragorn spoke of that himself! What a perceptive man he was indeed!
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
09-28-2002, 06:26 AM | #16 |
Seeker of the Straight Path
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
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Bethberry,
I love the point you made about Sam. JRRT was indeed a master at showing so many characters rise to their highest. Sam, Merry, Frodo,Finrod even Turin in an arch-tragic way all do the best that they can in extraorcinarily difficult circumstances and we see how JRRT reveals there individualities. Only Otherland [ and Tad Williams is a huge JRRT fan] has that same large array of point-of-view characters whom we get to see come to their fulfillment as whole people. As for Tennyson's saying. it is true in the sense that before knowing deep love, you are emotionaly stunted as a human. So even if you loose it, and do so painfully [ I speak from experience here]you will if you do not give in to lesser emotions and try and block out the feeling or run and hide , come through the ordeal as a stronger and more whole person. my 2 cents anyway. btw it is refreshing to see so many women posting here these days. The downs used to be pretty much a men's barrow. [ September 28, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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09-28-2002, 04:12 PM | #17 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: May 2002
Location: stronghold of the North
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Gosh, what a time we are living in, that a lady can't fall in love without 3000 idlers discussing why she did and why she shouldn't have!
Sorry, I didn't mean it mean. I just couldn't think of any better contribution to this highly interesting thread. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]
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Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века, Чтобы ты - простил?.. А трава разлуки высока... |
09-28-2002, 04:40 PM | #18 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX
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I never considered that Eowyn might be attracted to Aragorn solely for her own benefit. I always thought more of her than that. My initial impression was that Eowyn's love was akin to the love of Beregond for Faramir. Yes, she loved Aragorn for what he might bring into her life, but it's deeper than that. Aragorn is possessed of enormous gravity and power of will. Not only did he bend the palantir to his will, but he held the "shades of men at his back and his living followers to their road. As Legolas says in The Last Debate, "Even the shades of Men are obedient to his will!", and "In that hour I looked on Aragorn and thought how great and terrible a Lord he might have become in the strength of his will...not for naught does Mordor fear him. But nobler is his spirit than the understanding of Sauron" Of course Eowyn saw that by him she might escape, but there was a deeper love and devotion in her actions.
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"'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis |
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09-29-2002, 10:02 AM | #19 |
A Ghostly Light
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I have a comparison that maybe we ALL can appreciate:
How many girls on this forum are completely in love with Orlando Bloom? And how many of those girls love him "as a person"? Sure, he's got the looks and the fame, but none of us know what he's like inside.
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If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did." |
09-29-2002, 10:09 AM | #20 |
Wight
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I feel bad for Eowyn. My impression as I finished the book was that she seemed kinda unhappy about getting Faramir (THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!! HE'S BETTER LOOKING THAN ARAGORN ANYWAYS).
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In my opinion, Tolkien is a lot like Alexander Keith's: Those Who Like It, Like It A Lot!! Yay for Great Big Sea!! Aitken Centre, November 22 |
09-29-2002, 10:14 AM | #21 |
A Ghostly Light
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It seemed to me like she was disappointed about "getting Faramir" at first, but then realized that deep down, she really loved him.
At least, in my own little world of happy endings, that's how it would be.
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If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did." |
09-29-2002, 10:20 AM | #22 |
Wight
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Happy endings make me smile [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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In my opinion, Tolkien is a lot like Alexander Keith's: Those Who Like It, Like It A Lot!! Yay for Great Big Sea!! Aitken Centre, November 22 |
10-05-2002, 08:58 AM | #23 |
Animated Skeleton
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Estelyn Telcontar
I agree with your idea that past generations did use the word love more freely. Many now don't use it because it no longer means anything. I love you, I love chips, I love the TV show Friends. It’s only a word now used too lightly. I’ve had too many relationships that I’ve been told that I was loved. But my friend had never done anything to show that they felt this way. Or it was simply a lust [that they had for me] that they couldn’t find another word for. On the contrary for those, such as family, that you feel and show love for, you should tell them so. You will feel much better when they know. mark12_30 said that love is loyalty. This is a big part of love. I know when a husband loves a wife, not because he says so but because he does every thing and anything for her. He loves his children and shows it through his deeds. I.e. when his wife is sick he drives one hundred miles away because she needs Osteridge meat, and when he returns she tells him she forgot she needed watermelon and it's December. He doesn't whine he just goes and gets it with no sine of contempt. So I to think that Eowen only felt a simple lust for adventure when she met Aragorn. I would feel the same in her situation. But I believed she loved Faramir. They helped each other heal, they had like traits that they found in their conversation, and she knew him. I did enjoy the Aragorn and Eowen chapter but I liked the chapter of Faramir and her as well.
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Tiro! Êl eria e môr. Look! A star rises out of the darkness I 'lîr en êl luitha 'uren. The song of the star enchants my heart Ai! Aníron... An!I desire... |
10-06-2002, 04:32 AM | #24 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: middle earth, dork
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What touched me so much about éoeyn´s love is how much effort she put in it. With Aragorn she connected leaving her whole miserable life behind, being herself for a change and experiencing happiness. When Aragorn didn´t return her love, éowyn decided everything she had wasn´t worth it anymore. When she rode to Minas Tirith she´d decided to die, feeling she would never feel even a glimpse of happiness again. But she did. Isn´t it ironic that Eowyn experienced love once more in the city that was Aragorn´s city, of all places? Something else: at one point, Eowyn says:
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Many of you-and so did Tolkien himself- say that Eowyn didn´t love Aragorn, but the idea of being in love. I don´t really agree. I don´t think Eowyn really knew how being in love felt. She knew that there was something inside her, something new, something powerful. And because it was so new to her, she put everything into this feeling... everything she had. [ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: charly ]
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10-06-2002, 07:15 AM | #25 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 277
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I don't believe she desired to be queen in that she was going to start a search for the most eligible bachelor. She wanted to be free to live the life of a shieldmaiden not a nurse trapped by existence...this freedom was represented by the title of "queen", one who has power and free will.
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But of bliss and glad life there is little to be said, before it ends; as works fair and wonderful, while still they endure for eyes to see, are their own record, and only when they are in peril or broken for ever do they pass into song. |
10-06-2002, 08:55 AM | #26 |
Banshee of Camelot
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 5,830
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I quite agree with what Charly said!
Eowyn herself could of course not analyze her own feelings. For her, it was the first time she had ever felt so strongly for a man, so it was the one and only love, as she thought. It`s interesting that Aragorn himself saw quite clearly that "in me she loves only a shadow and a thought, a hope of glory and great deeds" As Estelyn said, he`s a very perceptive man. But Faramir is just as perceptive and has an extraordinary empathy ! He seems to understand Eowyn`s feelings better than she does herself! He sees that her love for Aragorn is a kind of hero-worsphip: "as a great captain may to a young soldier he seemed to you admirable" He doesn`t ask her to forget Aragorn: she can go on admiring him, he just makes her reognize her true feelings. I feel that Eowyn was very lucky to "get" Faramir. (Are there any men in this real world that are like him ? He`s really an ideal!!) He had "an air of nobility such as Aragorn at times revealed, less high perhaps , yet also less incalculable and remote"
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Yes! "wish-fulfilment dreams" we spin to cheat our timid hearts, and ugly Fact defeat! |
10-06-2002, 12:16 PM | #27 |
A Ghostly Light
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Guinevere, I agree with your perception of Faramir - why aren't there men like him around anymore?
But I still don't think that Eowyn was in love with Aragorn as we would think of being in love. She loved him in the way that all the fangirls love Orlando Bloom - i.e. Wow, he's hot. I want to marry him. They don't really know Orlie, they just know what he looks like and something about his lifestyle.
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If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did." |
10-06-2002, 01:23 PM | #28 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: France
Posts: 69
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Is Eowyn really in love with Aragorn? and hope lessly in love?
-I agree with Elenna, Guinevere and Charly: Eowyn seeks to be someone else, and Aragorn seems to be the example she has chosen to follow. She is impressed by him, whorships him, and has a blind -admiring amazement for the man, the heroe, the warrior, and the king representation, Aragorn is. I have more the feeling she is willing to identify herself to Aragorn as if Aragorn was an ideals. Her condtion as a woman and her cast in those time, won't never allowed it though. Not beeing able to "be Aragorn", she may desire to be considered and "loved" by the man the she esteems the most. But what she thinks it is love, might it not be confused with deep admiration? Until she understands her owns turmoils and her right feelings, she would be miserable and hopeless. Her misery touches me a lot as she is a valiant and beautiful personality. Quote:
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silmarillien All that is gold doesn't glitter. *********************************** Nee, ai****ara Dare mo ga konna kodoku ni naru no? |
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12-04-2004, 04:24 AM | #29 |
Deadnight Chanter
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I'm bringing this up, for its own sake, as well as for CbC discussion's (we are in Rohan, and soon A will meet E )
See also: Tolkien - For the love of Eowyn by Lady of Light cheers
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
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