new sub-forum?

[tom the eldest]

hello all.i been considering this.should we make a game-canon sub-forum?because,in every new lord of the rings/the hobbit game,theres new content that is unique,and independent from the book or movie(ex:caragors,mountain giant,graugs,etc).what do youg uys think?should the admin create another game canon sub forum or what?

[Galadriel55]

I don't think that at the moment there is really enough people and enough interest to open a whole new forum, but you can always start with opening up a new thread about it.

[Bêthberry]

I really don't see creating a new sub-forum for the use of non-canon stuff. This is supposed to be a forum about Tolkien and legitimate adaptations, not about treating non-canonical stuff as equivalent to Tolkien's own work.

Yes, I'm grumpy about this idea.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I really don't see creating a new sub-forum for the use of non-canon stuff. This is supposed to be a forum about Tolkien and legitimate adaptations, not about treating non-canonical stuff as equivalent to Tolkien's own work.

Yes, I'm grumpy about this idea.

I have never played a video game worth calling "having played a video game" (the only exception I can think of is that I recall being made to do Wii things once), but despite having no interest or ability to participate in a game-discussions subforum, I am not so sure we don't already have precedent for such a forum.

After all, isn't the Movies for a "subforum for the use of non-canon stuff"? Granted, you leave yourself plenty of wiggle-room with "new sub-forum" and "legitimate adaptations," but I wonder where we make the distinction between legitimate and illegitimate adaptations? There's always been willingness to discuss the Bakshi and Rankin-Bass movies and those are... to be charitable, not exactly in the mainstream of adaptation these days.

That said, I don't know from the standpoint of the forum community that there is any benefit to opening up another arena of discussion. The amount of natural overlap with the canonical knowledge base is far slimmer than with the movies. I know we *DO* have gamers amongst us, but I don't know whether it's a majority or minority.

In any case, unless there's a clear bulk of Downers itching to discuss video-game adaptations, a whole subforum seems like overkill. It would be better, in my opinion, to have a ruling on which current forum such discussions would fit (I assume either Novices & Newcomers or Movies). But that would require the Admins rousing from slumber.

[Tar-Jêx]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Despite having no interest or ability to participate in a game-discussions subforum

Forum games are boring. I take no interest in them and would prefer legitimate discussion, like we have here. That said, an off topic forum would still be appreciated, just for easing people into the Downs. There are a lot of topics which would only really belong in an 'Off Topic' sub-forum, rather than 'Novices and Newcomers' and 'Movies'.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Tar-Jêx

Forum games are boring. I take no interest in them and would prefer legitimate discussion, like we have here. That said, an off topic forum would still be appreciated, just for easing people into the Downs. There are a lot of topics which would only really belong in an 'Off Topic' sub-forum, rather than 'Novices and Newcomers' and 'Movies'.

I don't know... my experience of OT subforums on other sites is that they tend to devolve into conspiracy-theory battlegrounds.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I don't know... my experience of OT subforums on other sites is that they tend to devolve into conspiracy-theory battlegrounds.

The refreshing thing about the Downs has always been its decided omission of off-topic claptrap and bilge. No need for extraneous political arguments, religious wars, stupid pet tricks and reality TV indiscretions. Just Tolkien-centric talk without the filler.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

After all, isn't the Movies for a "subforum for the use of non-canon stuff"? Granted, you leave yourself plenty of wiggle-room with "new sub-forum" and "legitimate adaptations," but I wonder where we make the distinction between legitimate and illegitimate adaptations? There's always been willingness to discuss the Bakshi and Rankin-Bass movies and those are... to be charitable, not exactly in the mainstream of adaptation these days.

I suspect you are too recent a member to remember the major overhauls made to the RPG forum. The precise reason was to ensure that rpgs remained within reasonable grounds of Middle-earth canonicity and demonstrated some creativity and uniqueness. piosenniel and Child of the 7th Age worked tirelessly to help new gamers develop game ideas and characters that were consistent with Middle-earth. This included keeping the tone and action of the games consistent with Tolkien's work--eschewing graphic violence, gore, exploitation of sex--and avoiding Mary and Gary Sues and writing good quality English and not chatese. Conan the Barbarian characters were disallowed. I'm not sure that video games reflect these values. I don't think it can successfully be argued that Tolkien represented revenge and hatred as just.


The distinction between the "Books" and "Novices and Newcomers" forums was to accommodate the new members who were not as versed in Tolkien's work as other members. Both are supposed to refer to Tolkien's literary works and not off topic matters. The 'movies' forum was designed to allow members to discuss the very popular movies without swamping the literary discussion. It became a bit of a game and part of the fun to see how we could relate topics to Tolkien in the Barrow Downs forum and "Mirth" of course speaks for itself.

Like that of Nerwen and Morth, my experience of other Tolkien forums that allowed OT discussion is mixed if not negative. Almost all of them left off Tolkien discussion and were overwhelmed with massive arguments over the other topics.

Why ruin the uniqueness of the Barrow Downs now?

[Inziladun]

I've been a video gamer for a large part of my life, though as is the case with my reading tastes, my game preferences are somewhat eccentric.

I have never played any game having anything to do with Tolkien's works, and can't see myself ever doing so. It seems that gaming in this day is in itself a notable subculture, and I would have to wonder if 'gamers' as a group have the same appreciation for the works of Tolkien that has been a hallmark of the members of this excellent forum for so many years. That is not to say that lovers of the books cannot be game players as well, but I think that allowing a sub-forum devoted exclusively to games could invite some members who would not exhibit the established decorum and civility that has been a trademark of the Downs. I would not be in favor of it.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

despite having no interest or ability to participate in a game-discussions subforum, I am not so sure we don't already have precedent for such a forum.

If I've had a video game based topic to post, I've tried to use the Middle-earth Mirth section.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I don't know... my experience of OT subforums on other sites is that they tend to devolve into conspiracy-theory battlegrounds.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The refreshing thing about the Downs has always been its decided omission of off-topic claptrap and bilge. No need for extraneous political arguments, religious wars, stupid pet tricks and reality TV indiscretions. Just Tolkien-centric talk without the filler.

I agree, the Downs does not need an Off Topic sub-forum. We are a breath of fresh air on the Internet in not having one.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Kuru

I agree, the Downs does not need an Off Topic sub-forum. We are a breath of fresh air on the Internet in not having one.

We all sound so bitter and jaded about this, though, don’t we?

[Mithalwen]

We were refused a sub forum to discuss the BBC Radio adaptation so don't think likely.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

We all sound so bitter and jaded about this, though, don’t we?

I think we have all been through the wars at this point.

[tom the eldest]

Yikes,the opposition is strong.okay then.if that the members opinion,i will appreciate it

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

Yikes,the opposition is strong.okay then.if that the members opinion,i will appreciate it

Well, it isn't really a decision for members; the forum admins decide things like that.
The reigning opinion does seem to be negative, though.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

Yikes,the opposition is strong.okay then.if that the members opinion,i will appreciate it

I think the thing is, from a purely practical standpoint there clearly isn't the interest. If people were interested in talking about the games more they would be, but even the thread about the new game died out pretty quickly.

in every new lord of the rings/the hobbit game,theres new content that is unique,and independent from the book or movie(ex:caragors,mountain giant,graugs,etc)

Regarding this, I think people don't discuss this stuff because they're not interested in it, not because they're isn't a space for it. It's Tolkien-related "new content', but it isn't "real" Tolkien. I can appreciate why the situation is different for the films because of their massive cultural presence and the greater overlap between book-readers and film-watchers than between either of those and game-players.

That being said if anyone wants to discuss 'The Battle for Middle-earth' or its sequel (or the Games Workshop toy soldier game) I'd be more than happy to join in. But I think it's clear by observation of the direction and calibre of discussion here that a whole sub-forum would be little more than a domain of cyberspace tumbleweeds and would jar with the tone of the forum as (in my opinion) a place where "Tolkien" is not the commerical enterprise that has spawned such games.

[Tar-Jêx]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Regarding this, I think people don't discuss this stuff because they're not interested in it, not because they're isn't a space for it. It's Tolkien-related "new content', but it isn't "real" Tolkien. I can appreciate why the situation is different for the films because of their massive cultural presence and the greater overlap between book-readers and film-watchers than between either of those and game-players.

That being said if anyone wants to discuss 'The Battle for Middle-earth' or its sequel (or the Games Workshop toy soldier game) I'd be more than happy to join in. But I think it's clear by observation of the direction and calibre of discussion here that a whole sub-forum would be little more than a domain of cyberspace tumbleweeds and would jar with the tone of the forum as (in my opinion) a place where "Tolkien" is not the commerical enterprise that has spawned such games.

If the 'Tolkien' games do become a bigger thing over the years, then it may be worthy having a sub-sub-forum for it, but at the moment, they aren't that popular, and if they are, like Shadow of Mordor, then it's pretty shallow content with not much to discuss.

Imagine it like this, there are 2 (possibly more) dedicated threads to 'Riddles in the Dark'. We don't need a whole sub forum for that sort of discussion, but just some threads. We could take sort of discussion to 'New Players', but I think we should rename it, because that name isn't particularly indicative of what's there. 'New Players' deserves a sub-forum in that general 'Off topic, but still kind of relevant' sub forum.

[Leaf]

I guess the forum for the movies could be renamed as "Tolkien adaptations" or something similiar. (Video) games, movies and other popcultural adaptations could be discussed there equally.

[Galadriel55]

I don't think there's any need to rename anything. There are threads around dealing with different "adaptations", including threads for a video game and an MMRPG. You can start a thread in the Announcements forum, like the MMRPG thread. That's the usual place for the relevant but not fitting for other forums material (unless it's not very serious in which case it goes in Mirth). Start a discussion. If there is enough interest, create another thread that deals specifically with one aspect of your topic. Why rename a forum, or even start a new forum, if we don't even have a thread yet?

[Tar-Jêx]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I don't think there's any need to rename anything. There are threads around dealing with different "adaptations", including threads for a video game and an MMRPG. You can start a thread in the Announcements forum, like the MMRPG thread. That's the usual place for the relevant but not fitting for other forums material (unless it's not very serious in which case it goes in Mirth). Start a discussion. If there is enough interest, create another thread that deals specifically with one aspect of your topic. Why rename a forum, or even start a new forum, if we don't even have a thread yet?

I suggest renaming because the current 'New Users' forum has a slightly irrelevant title. I mean, it's a good place for new users to start, but a large number will jump straight into the action with 'Movies' or 'Books'. Considering most of the activity isn't actually from new users, a renaming seems suitable.

[Mithalwen]

The reason that it is novices and newcomers is because the Books forum is in principle, sacrosanct to serious discussionmthat can be supported by textual evidence. Speculative and opinion based topics were moved to N and. N. The name may not be ideal but its existance in the hectic days allowed books to be a haven for the sort of thread that needed reference to HoME and not get swamped by inevitably faster moving lighter topics.

I wouldn't be averse to movies becoming adaptations though as a devotee of the BBC radio versions of both LOTR and the Hobbit.

[Tar-Jêx]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

The reason that it is novices and newcomers is because the Books forum is in principle, sacrosanct to serious discussionmthat can be supported by textual evidence. Speculative and opinion based topics were moved to N and. N. The name may not be ideal but its existance in the hectic days allowed books to be a haven for the sort of thread that needed reference to HoME and not get swamped by inevitably faster moving lighter topics.

I wouldn't be averse to movies becoming adaptations though as a devotee of the BBC radio versions of both LOTR and the Hobbit.

While I agree that it's good that Books is now solely for the books, I dislike how just random stuff goes in 'Newcomers'. Renaming it to 'General Stuff' or something of the sort would be a much better indicator of what is actually in the forum.