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#1 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 4
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Ancalagon the Black
A couple of questions regarding this dragon (and some other stuff):
I. Gandalph said than not even Ancalagon could melt One Ring. But... 1) how could he know for sure? 2) while One Ring is ther greates Sauron creation, Ancalagon was arguably the greatest Melkor creation. And Melkor >>> Sauron in terms of power/ II. How could half elf, even in airship, kill the dragon who made Valar army flee and was so huge that broke several mountains when fall? And giant eagles... I doubt that they were more powerful than felbeasts, yet somehow managed to take down ancient, most powerful dragons (maybe they swarmed them though). III. Why was Gandalph so sure that Smaug was dangerous because we would be willing to align with Sauron? Sauron in that time was not really strong, he could not otder dragon not being his master, and Smauh hardly would be interested in anything Sauron could offer to him (since he was more than happy to sleep in cave full of treasures). IV. Why did Melkor lose? I mean, it was obvious that he should lose being a bad gut, but still... what led to his fall in War of Wrath? What strategical/tactical mistakes hi commited in his conquest of Arda? Overspread forces, relied too much on quantity, something else?.. |
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#2 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
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Eärendil cannot be dismissed simply as an half elf as if he were a lesser creature. He is the scion of arguably the noblest and most valiant lines of Elves and men, he has a Silmaril, and he is instrument of divine will within the cosmology of Arda. Ancalagon is greatest of dragons. But I think he had more than met his match. Anyone on foot is going to be at a major disadvantage from aerial assault. Ancalagon's size would be a disadvantage in a dogfight against a nimbler aircraft.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#3 | |||
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
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Welcome, Aster!
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
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#4 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
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1. I believe when Gandalf says "nor was there any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring," I would argue that he is speaking figuratively. He observes that "dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power" but the One Ring, strictly speaking, is not one of the Rings of Power per se but rather a related artefact with similar but not identical properties. The same is true of the Elven-Rings. By saying not even Ancalagon could destroy it, I think it's an elaborate way of saying "it's indestructible (save at Mount Doom)." Note Gandalf's caveat about why Ancalagon could not destroy it: "for that was made by Sauron himself." It was not in the nature of the One Ring to be destroyed in that fashion. It was, after all, "a thing of surpassing potency." (Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age)
Just skipping over 2 and 3 for a bit, the answer to the "Melkor>Sauron" question lies in the answer to: 4. Why was Morgoth defeated in the War of Wrath? The answer, I would argue, is that it is because by the end of the First Age his power was spent. Morgoth "squandered his strength in violence and tyranny" (Valaquenta) and was best understood as "a tyrant (or central tyranny and will), + his agents." (Morgoth's Ring) Morgoth's power was diffuse: in the shadow corrupting Arda, in his extremely large number of servants, and in the vast projects of war and industry in which his realm was occupied. By the end of the First Age, many of his greatest servants, like Gothmog and Glaurung, were dead, and despite overall victory against the Noldor vast armies under his control had been destroyed. Melkor has originally been very great indeed, and he was still able to muster at the very end a weapon - Ancalagon's dragons - that was so powerful it could drive back the Host of the Valar, which was probably composed mostly of Vanyar, who were extremely mighty in themselves. But when that failed he had nothing left. Morgoth might have waited and recovered his power, but in his endless campaigns of war against his enemies there was never time. I think this also explains why the One was indestructible even by Morgoth's most powerful servant. Unlike Morgoth, who partitioned his power everywhere, Sauron concentrated it in this one object. Of course it seems that by the end of the Third Age Sauron had been forced to start spending what remained of his own power in the same way, even just to manifest a body for himself, having lost two in the space of about a hundred years at the end of the Second Age. I think Mithalwen has got 2 covered, so I'll end with: 3. Smaug being "used" by Sauron doesn't necessarily mean actually having Smaug in his army (although Gandalf nonetheless evidently considered it a possibility). Sauron was not "not really strong" during Smaug's time. He was very strong - not in the West perhaps, but Rhûn and Harad were under his sway, and while he may not have found his Ring, his enemies had not found it either. He had nonetheless corrupted Mirkwood and infested the Misty Mountains and the Grey with Orcs (the War of the Dwarves and Orcs halted this, but not indefinitely). But it comes back to this issue of areas under control. Gandalf "was troubled in mind by the perilous state of the North; because he knew then already that Sauron was plotting war, and intended, as soon as he felt strong enough, to attack Rivendell. But to resist any attempt from the East to regain the lands of Angmar and the northern passes in the mountains there were now only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills. And beyond them lay the desolation of the Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect." The point was not even using Smaug as a weapon as such, but rather that as long as Smaug was there any defence against invasion from Rhûn would be impractical. The chief threat (fortunately averted in the actual war) was that Sauron would be able to unite forces from Dol Guldur and Rhûn, conquer Rhovanion and the Misty Mountains, and destroy the remaining refuges of the Elves. That's how I see it, at least. Crossed with Inzil but I believe we've drawn complementary conclusions!
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. |
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#5 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Aug 2014
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Thank you for answers!
1. But Orodruin was hardly "more powerful being" than Sauron, and its flame was hardly hotter than that of Ancalagon... yet it managed to melt One Ring just because "it was forged there" ![]() And were Nazgûl really less powerful than the Istari? If so, it is strange that Gandalph, for example, never really attempted to destroy them... You may say that he was forbidden to use greatest part of his power - yet he used it against Balrog... 2. Even is airship was much smaller, it is hard to believe that it could withstand massive amount of flame (and Ancalagon was thre greates living flamethrower ever, no doubt) during their loong battle, yet alone penetrate his armour (remember how tough was Glaurung scale). Well... I guess it is more of legend than militray chronicle after all) 4. But why he concentrated so hard on building orcish armies (orcs, even though they were created specifically for war, were bad warriors - took horrible casualties even when thyy did manage to beat elves with the help of Balrogs/etc.)? He did not seem to pay much attention to quality (did trolls ever do something impressive? No other formidable monsters were created...except Balrogs which could not be "mass produced" though) as well, until it was too late. Hmm. P.S. Is it mentioned anywhere precisely whether Valar themselves fought in War of Wrath or not? |
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#6 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
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"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
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#8 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 112
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Did Ancalagon the Black ever exist? Gandalf said to Frodo, ''Nor ever was there such a dragon''.
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#9 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien
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"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
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#10 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2014
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Thanks for the correction anyway. |
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#11 | |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
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Don't forget that Sauron himself was literally hot, much hotter than a normal house fire such at Bag End (which is not without its dangers). That couldn't even warm the ring but it remained hot for quitesome timeafter removal from Sauron's hand and the implication from Isildur's scroll is that Gil-galad was pretty much incinerated by contact with Sauron. So while I don't want to disparage Ancalagon, I don't agree with you.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#12 |
Woman of Secret Shadow
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: in hollow halls beneath the fells
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Not likely to forget that.
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He bit me, and I was not gentle. |
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#13 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Gandalf was forbidden to match power against power versus Sauron. The Balrog was not in Sauron's control, and was out of the ken of all the Fellowship but Gandalf; therefore, in order to assure the Fellowship continued their quest, Gandalf alone met this danger from the 1st Age.
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#14 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
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Balrogs as Maia are of the same order of beings as Gandalf, and indeed Sauron himself. Nazgul well they have a devolved power and some major weaknesses eg being water funks. Glorfindel is more than a match for half of them together and he isn't a Maia.... though quite possibly the greatest of the Eldar would equal or exceed some Maia in inherent power. The main weapon of the Nazgul is fear...and surprise..and a fanatical devotion to Sauron of course
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#15 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Aug 2014
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One last question.
What do you think would have happened, had Melkor won the last great batlle of War of Wrath? |
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#16 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
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The Free Peoples would either have destroyed or enslaved, with little likelihood of ever being able to oppose Morgoth militarily. It would have taken a "miracle" (as in the event happened with Eärendil's errand) to have brought him down.
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#17 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
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Umm... I forget the mind of Melkor as expounded on in Morgoth's Ring, but I think maybe he'd have destroyed most everything.
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As mention in MR, he'd have gone on raging against existence and the existence of others, but in the end unable to really destroy completely what he sought to. He knew he could not utterly destroy Elves and Men, their spirits, but he was pleased with destroying their bodies.
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"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
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#18 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Part of the problem in this discussion is talking about "strength" as if it's a quantitative attribute, like something from an RPG: "Gandalf has strength X and the Witch-King has strength Y with a +15 Will of Sauron bonus; roll 3d8."
It just doesn't work that way. Is a tank "stronger" than an infantryman? What if the infantryman has an antitank rocket? Were French knights "stronger" than English archers? For that matter, was Luthien "stronger" than Morgoth? Everything is situational. And Tolkien generally avoided describing strength-on-strength contests directly. He carefully avoided having Gandalf fight the Witch-King or confront Sauron. We know nothing of the episode in Orthanc save that Gandalf felt that resistance was futile (a pox upon PJ's wizard-fu!). The fight with the Balrog comes closer but even that is told in retrospect and in very general terms. By the time we get to the Silmarillion, much of it is distant and mythological (and in keeping with T's affectation of provenance, would have to be, since all the Elves knew of Earendil's fight with Ancalagon was distant report and long sight- "But then Vingelot and the Great Eagles came, and there was a big fight in the sky, and then Ancalagon fell on the mountain!" (Were I to get a rewrite, I'd take up the revised Second Prophecy of Mandos and have Turin fight from the boat while Earendil drove it, Iliad-style).
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#19 | |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Aug 2014
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I agree that he could not destroy everything, sure. He himself became part of Arda. |
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#20 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 81
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Maybe the winged dragons weren't ready at the time of the invasion? I also thinks it's very likely that Morgoths insanity diminished his competency as a general/leader. It's also possible that the ensuing erratic behavior led to low morale and infighting among his "staff" and the wider leadership (high ranking umaiar) - Sauron didn't even fight in the War of wrath, he hid himself away and watched the whole spectacle from the sidelines!
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#21 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
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1) the desire to be an incarnate King/Tyrant over Middle-earth if not all Arda. 2) "nihilistic madness": his irrational hatred of all life and matter. "Morgoth had no 'plan': unless destruction and reduction to nil of a world in which he had only a share can be called a 'plan'." (Morgoth's Ring) So I think he would have tried to conquer Arda, find himself unsatisfied and then try to destroy it, but the matter of dealing with the Valar is obviously a substantial one. He could perhaps have waited and re-absorbed a lot of his dissipate potency into himself, which I believe Professor Tolkien speculates he could have done, and then attacked Aman, but I feel as if the failure of the Host of the West might still have only resulted in an ongoing stalemate if it didn't result in a direct confrontation between Morgoth and the Valar in which Arda would be severely damaged if not destroyed.
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. |
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#22 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Jul 2014
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Melkor can't achieve either of those goals, so in that sense, he can't "win". The most he can hope for is some kind of stalemate/Cold War. But even if he somehow repelled the Host of the Valar: the Valar can just rehouse their fallen elven soldiers ad infinitum can't they? At that point the conflict becomes a war of attrition that Melkor will surely lose. The only question would be if the High-elves would have the stomach for the necessary decades long carnage, but considering that the actual War of Wrath went on for roughly 40 years (!!!) I guess that's not a problem. We also have to remember that the Valar restrained themselves to limit the damage and didn't actually participate in the war; if the initial invasion fails they may reconsider that approach and go all in.
Last edited by denethorthefirst; 12-12-2014 at 09:41 AM. |
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