What if Gollum had lived?

[Moonraker]

Once the One Ring was destroyed in the Cracks of Mount Doom, if we imagine that Gollum did somehow survive and was brought to safety (either by himself or though the help of the eagles), to what fate would Gandalf have sentenced Gollum to? Is it conceivable that Gollum would be allowed to live freely but under the watchful guard of the Wood Elves again? Or even a guest further down the line at Bag End? Could Gollum have been ordered to be sent over the sea at the end with Frodo & Company, given that Gollum was also a Ring Bearer? I am assuming Gollum would have committed suicide once he saw the Ring was gone, but still, you just never know.

[IxnaY AintsaY]

Gandalf: Oops, almost forgot Gollum. Quick Gwaihir, fly up to Sammath Naur and see if you can fish the little guy out.

Gwaihir: HWEEEKAHHHH

Gandalf: Hey, watch the robes! These white ones singe remarkably easily.

Gwaihir: @##@@***!

Gandalf: Ewww, he's pretty crispy. Let's see, feed a fever, starve a...no...Music should strike fire from the heart of man...no...Stinker Stinker burning bright... Oh, confound it! some cold water should do the trick, just drop him in the Anduin, I say!

Gollum: Yessss, bless us and splash us! With all possible speed, we might add.

[Many months pass]

Gandalf: Other than a lingering smell of tater-tots, looks like your all patched up, old chap!

Gollum: What’s taters, precious, eh, what’s taters?

And they all lived somewhat happily for a while after

HERE ENDS THE TALE OF THE LORD OF THE RINGS AND SOME MISCELLANEOUS HOBBITS, EXCEPT FOR ALL THESE APPENDICES, HAHAHAHAHAA

That's how I see it happening, anyway.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Once the One Ring was destroyed in the Cracks of Mount Doom, if we imagine that Gollum did somehow survive and was brought to safety (either by himself or though the help of the eagles), to what fate would Gandalf have sentenced Gollum to?

By "somehow survive" do you mean didn't fall into the Fire? Because as soon as the Ring was unmade he would have in all likelihood almost immediately died of extreme old age, regardless of what anyone else might have thought a suitable sentence for him. He had, after all, lived a little over five times a Hobbit's natural lifespan and the Ring was the only thing keeping him alive.

"Let us live, yes, live just a little longer. Lost lost! We're lost. And when Precious goes we'll die, yes, die into the dust."

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

By "somehow survive" do you mean didn't fall into the Fire? Because as soon as the Ring was unmade he would have in all likelihood almost immediately died of extreme old age, regardless of what anyone else might have thought a suitable sentence for him. He had, after all, lived a little over five times a Hobbit's natural lifespan and the Ring was the only thing keeping him alive.

I don't know that Gollum would have died instantly following the Ring's destruction, but he probably wouldn't have lived very long. One can see the quick change in Bilbo from the time Frodo last saw him in Rivendell to the return from the wedding of Aragorn and Arwen, and multiply that many times.

[Moonraker]

Did Gandalf or anyone else have a duty of care to Gollum in the event he did survive? He did commit some serious crimes, such as murdering Deagol, and biting off the finger of Frodo, as well as the attempted murder of Frodo and Sam. But the influence of the Ring was obviously what Gandalf would have thought was the reason Gollum behaved as he did, and was therefore not guilty on grounds of diminished responsibility. Maybe a short retirement in the woodland realm under the care of the Wood Elves would be more realistic that getting Bed & Breakfast at Bag End.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Did Gandalf or anyone else have a duty of care to Gollum in the event he did survive? He did commit some serious crimes, such as murdering Deagol, and biting off the finger of Frodo, as well as the attempted murder of Frodo and Sam. But the influence of the Ring was obviously what Gandalf would have thought was the reason Gollum behaved as he did, and was therefore not guilty on grounds of diminished responsibility. Maybe a short retirement in the woodland realm under the care of the Wood Elves would be more realistic that getting Bed & Breakfast at Bag End.

The fact that the Ring was a heavy influence on Gollum's deeds was a factor in meriting forgiveness from Frodo and Sam, but it did not entitle him to retirement care. It should be remembered that Gollum's mean and malicious nature allowed the Ring to more easily affect him to such a degree.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The fact that the Ring was a heavy influence on Gollum's deeds was a factor in meriting forgiveness from Frodo and Sam, but it did not entitle him to retirement care. It should be remembered that Gollum's mean and malicious nature allowed the Ring to more easily affect him to such a degree.

Gandalf certainly could not have allowed Gollum to walk freely in Middle Earth on the premise that he was a deranged, twisted and tormented murderer. He would have had to come under the care of some folk until he died. I was hoping the end of the Ring would have broken the evil spell bestalled on Gollum, so that he may begin to recover. But old age would soon cripple him to death even still.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

And yet but for Sam's clumsiness and protectiveness towards Frodo Gollum might have repented.

Letters #96

...For myself, I was prob. most moved by Sam's disquisition on the seamless web of story,
and by the scene when Frodo goes to sleep on his breast, and the tragedy of Gollum who at that moment
came within a hair of repentence-but for one rough word from Sam.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

And yet but for Sam's clumsiness and protectiveness towards Frodo Gollum might have repented.

Letters #96

Repented for how long? Surely the realisation that Frodo was on a quest to destroy the Ring would have stirred up the evil in Gollum again?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Repented for how long? Surely the realisation that Frodo was on a quest to destroy the Ring would have stirred up the evil in Gollum again?

Tolkien wrote, I think in that same letter cited by Tuor, that ultimately the Ring would have been too strong for Gollum, and the repentance would not have been permanent.

[Moonraker]

Would Gollum, being a previous Ring Bearer, be commanded to sail with the Company over the sea? Provided the old rascal could contain himself, tied up but treated with care?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Would Gollum, being a previous Ring Bearer, be commanded to sail with the Company over the sea? Provided the old rascal could contain himself, tied up but treated with care?

No. Frodo and Bilbo were not "commanded" themselves. It was a privilege granted because of their particular roles as Ring-bearers, and in recognition of each's love for the Elves. Gollum would not have gone, even if given the opportunity. His inability to touch the rope made in Lórien or eat lembas is an indication that the West wasn't for him.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The fact that the Ring was a heavy influence on Gollum's deeds was a factor in meriting forgiveness from Frodo and Sam, but it did not entitle him to retirement care. It should be remembered that Gollum's mean and malicious nature allowed the Ring to more easily affect him to such a degree.

Seconded.

It's been explained many times that the Ring enhances what is already there enroute to corruption. He was a rodentile muck-snipe who (...ahem...) commited murder the very moment he laid eyes on the Ring.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Seconded.

It's been explained many times that the Ring enhances what is already there enroute to corruption. He was a rodentile muck-snipe who (...ahem...) commited murder the very moment he laid eyes on the Ring.

But what would Gandalf have done with Gollum? I don't think the likes of Galadriel and Elrond would have cared too much for him, at best they might have been curious to visit him in jail in the Woodland realm of the Elves. Aragorn would have probably got involved in the final decision making process, being an old friend of Gollum's. Frodo & Bilbo would surely have forgiven him as they had first hand experience of the evil of the Ring.

Would the folks over the Great Sea not be curious to sea the creature behind all the tales that Frodo would have told them once the Company arrived on shore of the far green country, the Undying Lands?.

As for Gollum surviving, I could envisage a scene whereby he sees Frodo cast the Ring into the fire, shrieks out loud, and then faints. Sam and Frodo between them carry Gollum outside, then the Eagles come and take the three of them away. Gollum finally revives himself, now feeling terribly old and venerable, and no longer capable of being a physical danger to his captors. I can also conceive Gollum passing out permanently as he sees the Ring gone forever, maybe a stroke or heart attack due to the sheer shock and anger at losing what mean't so incredibly much to him. Certainly in old age this end would have been plausible, much like when a Pope died of shock in Rome after being informed that Jerusalem was lost by the Catholic soldiers to the Islamic Empire during the Crusades.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

But what would Gandalf have done with Gollum? I don't think the likes of Galadriel and Elrond would have cared too much for him, at best they might have been curious to visit him in jail in the Woodland realm of the Elves. Aragorn would have probably got involved in the final decision making process, being an old friend of Gollum's. Frodo & Bilbo would surely have forgiven him as they had first hand experience of the evil of the Ring.

Since when were any of the people you mention a "friend" of Gollum, least of all Aragorn?

'[Gollum] will never love me, I fear; for he bit me, and I was not gentle.

FOTR The Council of Elrond

So spoke Aragorn.

And Gollum wasn't anyone's responsibility. Yes, I think Frodo might have offered Gollum some help, if anyone did. But he would have been the only one, and it wouldn't have been out of any sort of obligation.

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Would the folks over the Great Sea not be curious to sea the creature behind all the tales that Frodo would have told them once the Company arrived on shore of the far green country, the Undying Lands?.

No, no more than they would have wished to see Wormtongue, or the Witch-king. You couldn't just stick anyone on those boats. Bilbo and Frodo were very special cases.

Originally Posted by Moonraker

As for Gollum surviving, I could envisage a scene whereby he sees Frodo cast the Ring into the fire, shrieks out loud, and then faints. Sam and Frodo between them carry Gollum outside, then the Eagles come and take the three of them away. Gollum finally revives himself, now feeling terribly old and venerable, and no longer capable of being a physical danger to his captors. I can also conceive Gollum passing out permanently as he sees the Ring gone forever, maybe a stroke or heart attack due to the sheer shock and anger at losing what mean't so incredibly much to him. Certainly in old age this end would have been plausible, much like when a Pope died of shock in Rome after being informed that Jerusalem was lost by the Catholic soldiers to the Islamic Empire during the Crusades.

I personally think that if Gollum had witnessed Frodo throwing the Ring into the Fire, he would immediately have leaped in after it. Without it, he would have had no will to live.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

to what fate would Gandalf have sentenced Gollum to? ... I am assuming Gollum would have committed suicide once he saw the Ring was gone, but still, you just never know.

He wouldn't have sentenced him to anything, he was not and didn't see himself as Judge. He would have governed himself by the same counsel he gave to his friends - mercy and pity.

"Deserves death? I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death, and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too hasty to deal out death in judgement fearing for your own safety. Not even the Wise can see all ends."

and

"I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured ere he dies, but there is a chance of it."

Remember that it is said of Gandalf/Olorin "He dwelt in Lorien [the dwelling of Irmo, master of visions, in Aman, not the forest near Moria] but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience."

Pity and patience would have ruled Gandalf's dealings with Gollum had he, somehow, survived the destruction of the Ring.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Since when were any of the people you mention a "friend" of Gollum, least of all Aragorn?

No, no more than they would have wished to see Wormtongue, or the Witch-king. You couldn't just stick anyone on those boats. Bilbo and Frodo were very special case.

Regarding Aragorn and Gollum, of course I was not serious when I said they were old friends, but they had spent time together at least, unlike Elrond or Galadriel.

Wormtongue never wore the Ring, and neither did the Witchking. Also, as the fate of Middle Earth was so tightly linked with the company of Frodo, Sam AND Gollum, all three having been Ring bearers, it poses a question if Gollum did indeed warrant further examination by the hosts in the Undying Lands. They certainly would have been very keen to hear of, and even see and speak with Gollum in his venerable and harmless state more than almost anyone else coming to see them from Middle Earth.

Gollum was one of the very, very few unlucky creatures to have ever been brought before the seat of Sauron, and quizzed. As the Ring finder, Ring bearer, and indirectly the Ring destroyer, he may well have got the nod to be on the boat (in chains incase he tried something funny, still uncured and tormented by the shame of losing the Ring forever, hopefully not insane though).

I don't think he could have gone willingly though, if he still had the ability to think straight and reason. He would also have to be on suicide watch, as he had no reason to live anymore, and I can't see how anyone could force feed him survive if he chose to starve himself.

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Pity and patience would have ruled Gandalf's dealings with Gollum had he, somehow, survived the destruction of the Ring.

Not sure on that, say if Gollum decided to attack Gandalf randomly? Although the Wizard would seen the attack as no more than a slap in the face, he has to draw the line at some point on how much pity and mercy one can give.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Not sure on that, say if Gollum decided to attack Gandalf randomly?

Well, that wasn't part of the original question or situation which was not "if he survived and went on a murderous rampage against a wizard who had just saved his life" but simply "if Gollum survived the destruction of the Ring."

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Well, that wasn't part of the original question or situation which was not "if he survived and went on a murderous rampage against a wizard who had just saved his life" but simply "if Gollum survived the destruction of the Ring."

Yes. but realistically Gollum was a danger to anyone for a random attack surely, if he had any will and physical strength left.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

But what would Gandalf have done with Gollum? I don't think the likes of Galadriel and Elrond would have cared too much for him, at best they might have been curious to visit him in jail in the Woodland realm of the Elves. Aragorn would have probably got involved in the final decision making process, being an old friend of Gollum's. Frodo & Bilbo would surely have forgiven him as they had first hand experience of the evil of the Ring.

This isn't anything related to my reply to Inziladun, however. What Gandalf would have done with him is a separate question, entirely, and doesn't change the fact that Smeagol was a rodentile muck-snipe who killed his own kin the very moment he laid eyes on the Ring.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

This isn't anything related to my reply to Inziladun, however. What Gandalf would have done with him is a separate question, entirely, and doesn't change the fact that Smeagol was a rodentile muck-snipe who killed his own kin the very moment he laid eyes on the Ring.

Gandalf thought the evolution of Gollum was a sad story, one that he thought could have happened to good law abiding hobbits, so he probably would not agree entirely with your assessment that Gollum was like you say before he saw the Ring for the first time.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Gandalf thought the evolution of Gollum was a sad story, one that he thought could have happened to good law abiding hobbits, so he probably would not agree entirely with your assessment that Gollum was like you say before he saw the Ring for the first time.

Pity does not preclude holding one responsible for wrongdoing. Gandalf makes it clear to Frodo that because Bilbo's first act as Ring-bearer was to show mercy to Gollum, he escaped the Ring's corruption, and was even able to willfully give it up.

Gollum, on the other hand, began his possession of the Ring with murder, and then used it to spy on his relatives and learn their secrets.

Gandalf also felt sadness for the fall of Saruman, but we don't see him offering the latter a seat on the boat.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Gandalf also felt sadness for the fall of Saruman, but we don't see him offering the latter a seat on the boat.

Did Galadriel not offer the old fool forgiveness, which Saruman refused out of hand? In this context I always thought he would have been allowed on the ship to the Undying Lands, where he would then be summoned to a trial by the Valar, or other powers that be over the sea. But the Valar had banished Saruman from Valinor when his staff was broken by Gandalf, and I am not sure if Galadriel or Gandalf had enough authority to overturn the punishment to get him back to Valinor.

It is these folk that would also put Gollum on trial.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Gandalf thought the evolution of Gollum was a sad story, one that he thought could have happened to good law abiding hobbits, so he probably would not agree entirely with your assessment that Gollum was like you say before he saw the Ring for the first time.

Pure speculation about the thoughts of a fictional character. In any event, being a dirtbag doesn't prevent one from being in a sad story.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Pure speculation about the thoughts of a fictional character. In any event, being a dirtbag doesn't prevent one from being in a sad story.

Nope, not speculation. If Gandalf thought Gollum as evil regardless of what influence the Ring had on him, he would not have offered pity, he would have ordered jail at the very least, or death. Instead, he thought Gollum had a small chance of being cured from the evil of the Ring, and had him treated well by the Wood Elves. Tolkein even suggests that the archers of Gondor killing him in the dark would also be against Gandalf's wishes. The creature was not wholly evil or wicked in origin, and deserved a second chance, to his mind at least.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Nope, not speculation. If Gandalf thought Gollum as evil regardless of what influence the Ring had on him, he would not have offered pity, he would have ordered jail at the very least, or death. Instead, he thought Gollum had a small chance of being cured from the evil of the Ring, and had him treated well by the Wood Elves. Tolkein even suggests that the archers of Gondor killing him in the dark would also be against Gandalf's wishes. The creature was not wholly evil or wicked in origin, and deserved a second chance, to his mind at least.

It is speculation. You said:

so he probably would not agree entirely with your assessment that Gollum was like you say before he saw the Ring for the first time.

which is a guess about what someone (a fictional character, to boot) may or may not think when presented with a (another fictional) hypothetical.

Also, since I never said anything about executing Gollum, I'm not sure what your first quote in my reply here has to do with what we were talking about, or the price of tea in China.

[Inziladun]

Moonraker, this is a quote from The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien that illustrates what I've been trying to say:

Gollum was pitiable, but he ended in persistent wickedness, and the fact that this worked good was no credit to him....The domination of the Ring was much too strong for the mean soul of Sméagol. But he would have never had to endure it if he had not become a mean sort of thief before it crossed his path.

# 181

Again, Gollum was deserving of pity, but had he lived he would only have earned freedom to go and live (or die) as he pleased. Frodo might have offered to care for him, but I think it certain any offer of help would have been refused.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

It is speculation. You said:



which is a guess about what someone (a fictional character, to boot) may or may not think when presented with a (another fictional) hypothetical.

Also, since I never said anything about executing Gollum, I'm not sure what your first quote in my reply here has to do with what we were talking about, or the price of tea in China.

Probability is not the same as speculation. Hitler died, probably by suicide, but I do not recall that as being presented as speculation by most historians. When the evidence for a case is compelling but not absolute, probability (likelihood) comes into the equation. Speculation is implying an outcome that may have no evidence whatsoever and is just a random guess.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

And yet but for Sam's clumsiness and protectiveness towards Frodo Gollum might have repented.

Letters #96

Originally posted by Moonraker
Repented for how long? Surely the realisation that Frodo was on a quest to destroy the Ring would have stirred up the evil in Gollum again?

Gandalf would not have agreed. He held out hope that Gollum might repent.

'But that, [Gollum getting pleasant memories of the past when talking to Bilbo] of course, would only make the evil part of him angrier in the end-
unless it could be conquered. Unless it could be cured.' Gandalf sighed. 'Alas! there is little hope of that for him. Yet not no hope. No, not though he possessed the Ring so long, almost as far back as he can remember......
The murder of Deagol haunted Gollum, and he had made up a defence, repeating it to his "Precious" over and over again, as he gnawed bones in the dark, until he almost believed it.'

[Moonraker]

I suppose if the Valar had the ability to see the doings of Gollum from afar a bit like how Saruman used the Palantir to look deeper into Middle Earth, then they may not have cared to see Gollum in Valinor. I have no knowledge of what dimensions of power the Valar possessed beyond being more powerful than the Maia. Galadriel used her Mirror for this purpose, she may have had more knowledge of Gollum than she would care to admit. Which also brings me to ask why Gandalf didn't ask to use the Mirror more often? Was it just not as reliable as a Palantir? If it was of no use, then why did Galadriel ask Frodo to look into it?

[IxnaY AintsaY]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

If it was of no use, then why did Galadriel ask Frodo to look into it?

I very much doubt the Mirror was of no use, but she never really asks Frodo to look in it.

‘Do you advise me to look?’ asked Frodo.
‘No,’ she said. ‘I do not counsel you one way or the other. I am not a counsellor. You may learn something, and whether what you see be fair or evil, that may be profitable, and yet it may not. Seeing is both good and perilous. Yet I think, Frodo, that you have courage and wisdom enough for the venture, or I would not have brought you here. Do as you will!’

Why does she invite him to use it then? That's a good question. At a guess, I'd say she was trying to learn more about what kind of person the Ringbearer really was.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by IxnaY AintsaY

Why does she invite him to use it then? That's a good question. At a guess, I'd say she was trying to learn more about what kind of person the Ringbearer really was.

This is rather off-topic, but the Mirror could indeed have been a literal mirror, in the sense that its visions might have reflected hopes, fears, and inner conflicts of the viewer. Curiously, Boromir never got a crack at it, but then Galadriel already suspected what she might see in him.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by IxnaY AintsaY

I very much doubt the Mirror was of no use, but she never really asks Frodo to look in it.

‘Do you advise me to look?’ asked Frodo.
‘No,’ she said. ‘I do not counsel you one way or the other. I am not a counsellor. You may learn something, and whether what you see be fair or evil, that may be profitable, and yet it may not. Seeing is both good and perilous. Yet I think, Frodo, that you have courage and wisdom enough for the venture, or I would not have brought you here. Do as you will!’

Why does she invite him to use it then? That's a good question. At a guess, I'd say she was trying to learn more about what kind of person the Ringbearer really was.

The Moonraker seeks to push the realms of possibilities to the limits to reach new heights of truth, but not fact. But the Mirror could have been used to track Gollum years before he was actually caught. Could it have been also commandeered at Rivdenell during the Council of Elrond? Or did Galadriel have sole power in turning it on and off? Again it might have helped track Gollum's progress, and it could have aided Gandalf in seeing where Frodo and Sam had got to. I doubt it could reveal Gollum's ultimate fate, however, be it death, recovery, or insanity.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Probability is not the same as speculation. Hitler died, probably by suicide, but I do not recall that as being presented as speculation by most historians. When the evidence for a case is compelling but not absolute, probability (likelihood) comes into the equation. Speculation is implying an outcome that may have no evidence whatsoever and is just a random guess.

And did you completely ignore Inziladun's Tolkien quote above?

/thread

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

And did you completely ignore Inziladun's Tolkien quote above?

/thread

That is a matter for Inziladun to challenge. But in this very special instance I will answer, as every poster now and again has a bad day at the office and asks odd questions ---------------------------------> No.

[Moonraker]

Is there any chance at all that Gollum could truly heal once the Ring was destroyed? Bilbo recovered well once he let go of the Ring. Frodo likewise.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Zig�0‹4r

By "somehow survive" do you mean didn't fall into the Fire? Because as soon as the Ring was unmade he would have in all likelihood almost immediately died of extreme old age, regardless of what anyone else might have thought a suitable sentence for him. He had, after all, lived a little over five times a Hobbit's natural lifespan and the Ring was the only thing keeping him alive.

"Let us live, yes, live just a little longer. Lost lost! We're lost. And when Precious goes we'll die, yes, die into the dust."

If Gollum hadn't fallen into the Fire what was the other way to destroy the Ring? Probably Frodo would have jumped himself and that'd have saved the day. And only then Gollum could be saved. I also feel Gollum was too fragile to be sentenced and neither of the good people, especially Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel would have wanted to punish him. They'd probably focus on his healing rather than punishing him.