Did the Eye ever leave Barad Dûr?

[NicktheOrc]

I need to know if the Eye ever left the Dark Tower. It's for a fanfic. Can anyone tell me if he did and where he went to? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[NicktheOrc]

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I think he did. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

I don't think so, it was Sauron, after all.

[burrahobbit]

Sauron was never just an eye. While he was the Dark Lord he was always in the form of a man.

[Arwen Imladris]

Hmm, I don't think that he would have to leave. He could see everything he needed to, and he also had spies every where, his orcs and black riders. He must have left at some point in time but I doubt that he did very often.

[Nimrodel]

When he needed to deal directly with men, he used The Mouth of Sauron, he is described as being "a man".

There is a path called Sauron's Road leading from the Barad Dur to the Chambers of Fire on Mount Doom. I don't know if that means he used the road or merely that it was controlled by him.

[NyteSky]

Hey, some new people here! Hi!
Didn't Sauron have to leave it at somepoint? Because in the Hobbit the White Council drove him out of Mirkwood. Other than that, I don't know.

[Leto]

The 'Eye' is just the symbol of Sauron, what his evil will 'looks' like to those who might view it. Sauron has left Barad Dur in the past. For a time, he had taken up residence in Dol Guldur, in southern Mirkwood. He was driven out around the time of the battle of five armies, he withdrew and rebuilt Barad Dur at that time. But Sauron, without the ring, could not take physical form anymore. He was a spirit of evil will and domination, that took action through his servants.

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

Sauron was never just an eye. While he was the Dark Lord he was always in the form of a man.

I just meant it was Sauron's eye.

Didn't Sauron have to leave it at somepoint? Because in the Hobbit the White Council drove him out of Mirkwood. Other than that, I don't know.

He would've been ablle to, but would he have had to? He had the Nazgul, orcs and slaves to do what he wanted. He also spies everywhere.

[obloquy]

But Sauron, without the ring, could not take physical form anymore.

This is from the movie, not Tolkien. Sauron did make a new body for himself when he took up residence at Dol Guldur. From The Silmarillion:

‘True, alas, is our guess. This is not one of the Úlairi, as many have long supposed. It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace; and he is gathering again all the Rings to his hand; and he seeks ever for news of the One, and of the Heirs of Isildur, if they live still on earth.’

During the War of the Ring -- the time covered in Lord of the Rings -- Sauron did have a physical body.

[Daniel Telcontar]

But was the Eye is real form, or just how he appeared to other beings? If it was his real form, then I doubt he ever left Barad-dur becuase it must be complicated moving around when you're an eye.

[obloquy]

NO, SAURON WAS NEVER JUST A HUGE EYEBALL. Good grief.

[ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: obloquy ]

[Daniel Telcontar]

I don't know if you misunderstood me, but I was kind of joking, you know. I just imagined the trouble moving around as an eye. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Beren87]

Sauron appeared as an eye to all who looked upon him with a ring on. As can be seen from the description of Frodo on Weathertop.

My opinion would be that the yes he did leave, Mount Doom seems to be like a worshiping alter for Sauron, but perhaps that is just me.

[Calencoire]

The "eye" never actually left Barad-Dur, but it could look anywhere in Middle Earth it wanted to, but only one place at a time. That's why Frodo and Sam were never noticed, because the eye looked at Minas Tirith to see what they were doing.

[The Silver-shod Muse]

Doubtless the eye was a purely metaphorical manifestation.

I thought that Sauron could not take on the form of a man after he was swallowed up in the Numenoreans' downfall, but maybe I'm wrong.

Also, I don't see him compromising himself by actually going anywhere. Rather, he impresses one with a sense of something like partial omnipotence (looking towards the West, per se).

[obloquy]

I thought that Sauron could not take on the form of a man after he was swallowed up in the Numenoreans' downfall, but maybe I'm wrong.

He could and did. How else could Isildur have cut the Ring from his finger? He took yet another physical body after his defeat at Isildur's hand, and then moved into Dol Guldur and became known as The Necromancer. Perhaps you're thinking of this, from the Akallabeth:

And Sauron, sitting in his black seat in the midst of the Temple, had laughed when he heard the trumpets of Ar-Pharazôn sounding for battle; and again he had laughed when he heard the thunder of the storm; and a third time, even as he laughed at his own thought, thinking what he would do now in the world, being rid of the Edain for ever, he was taken in the midst of his mirth, and his seat and his temple fell into the abyss. But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men,...

Sauron could no longer take a fair shape. But the paragraph I quoted continues:

...yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure.

[Elendur]

This is a great topic because I am definitely unsure about it.

I think the eye was not the shape Sauron took. It was the combination of himself and the palantir. Obviously, sitting in his dark tower, Sauron wouldn't take the shape of a flaming eye. I would think he'd take a shape similar to that of Melkor's: A dark figure that would strike fear into those who viewed him. The eye was a symbol of Sauron when he was looking through the palantir, which he obviously was doing alot during the time of LOTR.

I can't really explain this how I want, but I hope you see what I am saying. Tell me what you think. This is always what I have thought. I could be wrong.

And, to answer the original topic, the eye did not leave Barad-dur, I think. Since Sauron and the palantir were both located there, how could they move. There are situations, like Frodo sitting on the chair on Amon Hen, when it seemed to him that the eye was getting closer, but that was not the eye actually moving out from Barad-dur. Tell me what you think about this as well.

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Elendur ]

[Thingol]

The prisoner is to be kept safe and intact, under pain of death for every member of the guard, until He sends or comes Himself.

From the capitalization of He and Himself we can deduce that the He is Sauron. Obloquy is correct, Sauron is most definitely more than an eye. I've always thought that the eye was a spiritual image that was projected by Sauron. I'm sure that Sauron would have been able to project that image through the Ithil palantir. That is also probably how Sauron would make himself appear in the spiritual world. Frodo sees the giant eye when he has the Ring on and is in the spiritual world. As Frodo gets closer to Mount Doom and Sauron, he begins to see the eye all the time. This is either because Frodo is starting to fade, or because Sauron's force is becoming so strong that the eye is able to tear through the corporeal world and become manifest to whoever has the Ring. Personally I believe the latter. Every being of great power has some sort of an aura that is the reflection of their power on the physical world. Glorfindel, Gandalf, Galadriel, all have this shrouded white light. The Nazgul and The Balrog have this cloud of fear and power that goes before them. Sauron definitely has a physical body, he is not only an eye. From the fact that Sauron would issue an order that stated to hold any prisoners until he comes himself I think it's reasonable to assume that Sauron must have left the Barad-dur at some point.

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

[The Silver-shod Muse]

I'm sure that Sauron left Barad-dur, as much because he didn't trust his orc overseers as because he had problems that needed his attention, but I don't think that he physically went beyond the boundaries of Mordor.

I've always supposed (wrongly, it seems) that Sauron assumed some generally humanoid form, not that he literally became a man, pleasing to the eye or otherwise.

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: The Silver-shod Muse ]

[Thingol]

You assumed correctly The Silver-shod Muse, Sauron did assume some sort of physical humanoid form. The eye was his spiritual, or magical if you prefer, manifestation. That's my theory at least.

[Morgoth the Great]

The eye in itself never left the tower, but Sauron must have, or rather did, because he was the necromancer of Dol Guldor for a long time. This is the only time to my knowledge that Sauron left Barad Dur during the war of the Ring or the time around it. Please correct me if im wrong in this.

[Tar Elenion]

Obloquy quoted the relevant portion of The Akallabeth which answers the various questions involved:
"There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure."

The "Eye" is referred to here, and this is just after the Downfall of Numenor and before the Last Alliance. It can not refer to a palantir, as Sauron did not have access to a palantir. We know that Sauron (the "Eye") had a body for he fought Gil-galad and Elendil, and we know that the 'Eye' left Barad-dur, because Sauron fought Gil-galad and Elendil on the slopes of Mt. Doom.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

"Sauron should be thought as very terrible. The form he took was taller than a man, but not gigantic." - The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien

"Then they [the Nazgul, if they had reached Orodruin in time to stop Frodo] would have simply waited, until Sauron himself came." - The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien

I think the eye did left Barad dûr after the dagorlad as Sauron's shattered and dispersed spirit and could not take physical form (in a human shape at least) since nearly all his power was put in the one ring as JRR Tolkien says in the LOTR and the silmarillion. there's no written or told affirmation, not even by Gandalf or the white council that the Necromancer (Sauron) was actually an embodied self at the time of his defeat in Dol Guldur. All his remaining power could gave to him when he finally rebuilded Barad dûr was the shape of a terrible eye, perhaps trying to inspire again the fear that the eye produced when he had a body. I don't know....just a thought.

[Sharkû]

Think less, read more. Such as the post just above.

[ArathorofBarahir]

Why would he need to leave? He can see all of Middle Earth.

[Lord of Angmar]

Sauron was never an eye, nor would it be logical to assume that, even had he been an 'eye' like in the movie, he ever walked around Middle Earth thusly clothed.

EDIT: I feel like I should clear something up. As far as I know from what I have read, the Eye of Sauron is something figurative, a metaphor for the power of Mordor and Barad-dur. When you read of Sauron's hand growing long in Middle Earth, or his shadow spreading, do you think of a large hand grasping out or a shadow spreading slowly over the world?

[ October 08, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

[ArathorofBarahir]

But didn't he lose his human form when he was destroyed in the second age? So how he could he walk around if he had not human form?

[Legolas]

Try reading the thread again...he lost his ability to appear fair after the sinking of Numenor. He could still take any other form he desired (provided he had enough strength).

[Secret Fire]

All of the Ainur had the ability to change their form, but none held so many different shapes as Sauron. During the First Age, his accustomed form seems to have been that of a dark sorceror, commanding a host of evil things, and especially werewolves and their kind. He shifted form many times in his existence, though, especially during his duel with Huan; among the shapes he wore were:• Wolf-Sauron. This was the monstrous wolf-shape he chose when he went forth from his fortress on Tol-in-Gaurhoth to battle with Huan.
• During the battle, he changed his form to that of a serpent in his struggles to escape.
• Finally, after Huan released him, he became a great vampire, and fled into the east, 'dripping blood from his throat upon the trees'3.
these are, of course, not in the third age, but as he had simply lost the ability to appear fair, these abilities would remain. At the time of the war of the ring, Sauron was able to take two forms: the form of a great black man and that of a huge flaming eye.

[Legolas]

Where are these huge flaming eye references?

[Sharkû]

Right after that paragraph where it said that Saruman liked to change into the form of a huge white hand.

[Legolas]

Oh man, there it is - had it been a snake, it would've caught me right in the throat - right before it explains that Orthanc was made of Ancalagon's biggest tooth.

[Secret Fire]

Yes, the huge flaming eye references are my own little joke, but it is stated that he could appear as one by gandalf, I believe. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]