Was Tolkien Green? ;) - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Greyhame · 06-22-2002, 09:53 AM

Another thread brought a thought to mind that I've had while reading LOTR, being this: Was JRRT a conservationist?

I mean, his portrayal of Nature (and the spirits that comprise it) is astonishing in its warmth and depth. He goes to a lot of trouble explaining the plight of the trees, making clear the relationships between Nature and Man (and dwarf, elf, orc, etc...)

I have heard that his vision of Mordor was influenced by his coming of age in industrial Birmingham, contrasted sharply by the lush, pastoral setting of the Shire (possibly influenced by his childhood in the countryside). It would seem that the virtual demonization of what he viewed as industrial excesses supports the idea that Tolkien was a staunch conservationist (as the modern environmental movement currently espoused by the Green Party hadn't quite come to fruition yet).

For me, it is yet another rich layer of meaning in LOTR. What does everyone else think?

Amanaduial the archer · 06-22-2002, 10:21 AM

i think because tolkien was living at a time when the world was being built up into cities from the countryside he loved, writing with these lovely nature scenes were his way of escaping from it.

Gimli Son Of Gloin · 06-22-2002, 11:09 AM

I read somwhere that the chapter where the hobbits take back The Shire (I forget what it's called), he didn't get his inspiration from the countryside being developed. I forget where though.

Raefindel · 06-22-2002, 04:15 PM

Tolkien, at one time, lived near a factory of some kind that was constantly spewing black smoke. It made everything black including his clothes. He changed his shirt 3 times a day.

06-23-2002, 11:24 AM

Tolkien spent his early childhood in the Warwickshire/Cotswolds countryside, which is still known for its beauty today, so must have been even more so back then. The Shire represents that region. Then his family was forced to move into Birmingham, England's 2nd largest city, which would have been a real "smokestack" place then, as it was cheaper. He always resented the move and missed the countryside, and I think that's apparent in the books. The Shire is definitely an idealised English countryside, just look at the honour accorded to gardeners!!!

Greyhame · 06-24-2002, 01:27 PM

Thanks for the responses so far, but I am still curious what everyone thinks about the heavy use of nature spirits in Middle-earth... Tolkien seems to be implying that Creation itself is very special, and deserves the utmost respect of Eru's children. In addition, Melkor and Sauron and even Saruman are portrayed as enemies of nature, twisting and mutilating and corrupting it to serve their own fell purposes.

What does the board think?

Aldagrim Proudfoot · 06-24-2002, 04:40 PM

Well, maybe he believed that people were put here to take care of the world, therefore people who don't are enemies of nature.

The Silver-shod Muse · 06-25-2002, 10:45 AM

I believe that Dr. Seuss underwent something like what has been described with Tolkien. His book, "The Lorax", deals with the responsibility we have for nature and the equilibrium of the environment being handed down to the children.

Living in an age of overpowering industrializtion, there were many changes that felt wrong to the people that were not used to them. Like the Lorax who spoke for the trees and animals that were being displaced, Tolkien probably liked the idea of beings that were guardians of nature and elements that have no tongue to save themselves from the ravages of men, hence the purpose of the Ents as outlined by Yavanna.

Raefindel · 06-25-2002, 11:25 AM

I think Tolkien's dislike in the horrors of indrustrialization is made clearest in the chapter "Flotsam & Jetsam". When Orthanc is flooded and "great machines" make a steam. the day is saved by Ents. the power of nature prevailed (in Tolkien's world).

Shadow of Udûn · 06-29-2002, 05:43 AM

I don't think that Tolkein was saying that nature was always fantastic. I think he was just as interested in showing it's brutality, as well as it's incredible beauty. Mount Caradhras, for instance, is almost a living thing, which seems to delight in thwarting the Fellowship's passage. And, after all, Mount Doom is natural. Certainly Tolkein was writing about nature in a wonderful manner, but he was also saying that nature can be brutal as well as kind.
Then again, perhaps that's a moral. Elve's live in harmony with nature, and their lives are care free and happy. Orcs, the very opposite of elves, live in conflict with nature, and each other, and live lives which are described as pretty miserable. Sauron twists the earth to his own uses. Tolkein probably wasn't a conservationist in the modern vein, but he was certainly giving a message about what happens when we don't live in harmony with nature - that we can't live in harmony with each other.

The Silver-shod Muse · 07-02-2002, 03:37 PM

I was struck by the sense of overpowering distance and wilderness in Middle Earth. One of the changes I resented from the movie was that Peter Jackson made the incident on Caradhras Saruman's trick. This, coupled with Tom Bombadil's absence, depleted the sense of mystery and the great unknown powers and enigmas of nature that Tolkien had so artfully woven into LotR.

06-22-2002, 09:53 AM	#1
Greyhame Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: illinois Posts: 42	Was Tolkien Green? ;) Another thread brought a thought to mind that I've had while reading LOTR, being this: Was JRRT a conservationist? I mean, his portrayal of Nature (and the spirits that comprise it) is astonishing in its warmth and depth. He goes to a lot of trouble explaining the plight of the trees, making clear the relationships between Nature and Man (and dwarf, elf, orc, etc...) I have heard that his vision of Mordor was influenced by his coming of age in industrial Birmingham, contrasted sharply by the lush, pastoral setting of the Shire (possibly influenced by his childhood in the countryside). It would seem that the virtual demonization of what he viewed as industrial excesses supports the idea that Tolkien was a staunch conservationist (as the modern environmental movement currently espoused by the Green Party hadn't quite come to fruition yet). For me, it is yet another rich layer of meaning in LOTR. What does everyone else think? __________________ Poo-tee-weet?

06-22-2002, 10:21 AM	#2
Amanaduial the archer Shadow of Starlight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: dancing among the ledgerlines... Posts: 2,347	i think because tolkien was living at a time when the world was being built up into cities from the countryside he loved, writing with these lovely nature scenes were his way of escaping from it. __________________ I am what I was, a harmless little devil

06-22-2002, 11:09 AM	#3
Gimli Son Of Gloin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Halls of Montezuma, and the Shores of Tripoli Posts: 495	I read somwhere that the chapter where the hobbits take back The Shire (I forget what it's called), he didn't get his inspiration from the countryside being developed. I forget where though. __________________ The Few, the Proud, the Marines.

06-22-2002, 04:15 PM	#4
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,313	Tolkien, at one time, lived near a factory of some kind that was constantly spewing black smoke. It made everything black including his clothes. He changed his shirt 3 times a day. __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

06-24-2002, 01:27 PM	#6
Greyhame Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: illinois Posts: 42	Thanks for the responses so far, but I am still curious what everyone thinks about the heavy use of nature spirits in Middle-earth... Tolkien seems to be implying that Creation itself is very special, and deserves the utmost respect of Eru's children. In addition, Melkor and Sauron and even Saruman are portrayed as enemies of nature, twisting and mutilating and corrupting it to serve their own fell purposes. What does the board think? __________________ Poo-tee-weet?

06-23-2002, 11:24 AM	#5
Baranfuiniel Guest Posts: n/a	Tolkien spent his early childhood in the Warwickshire/Cotswolds countryside, which is still known for its beauty today, so must have been even more so back then. The Shire represents that region. Then his family was forced to move into Birmingham, England's 2nd largest city, which would have been a real "smokestack" place then, as it was cheaper. He always resented the move and missed the countryside, and I think that's apparent in the books. The Shire is definitely an idealised English countryside, just look at the honour accorded to gardeners!!!

06-24-2002, 04:40 PM	#7
Aldagrim Proudfoot Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hobbiton Posts: 328	Well, maybe he believed that people were put here to take care of the world, therefore people who don't are enemies of nature. __________________ I do not suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it!

06-25-2002, 10:45 AM	#8
The Silver-shod Muse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX Posts: 388	I believe that Dr. Seuss underwent something like what has been described with Tolkien. His book, "The Lorax", deals with the responsibility we have for nature and the equilibrium of the environment being handed down to the children. Living in an age of overpowering industrializtion, there were many changes that felt wrong to the people that were not used to them. Like the Lorax who spoke for the trees and animals that were being displaced, Tolkien probably liked the idea of beings that were guardians of nature and elements that have no tongue to save themselves from the ravages of men, hence the purpose of the Ents as outlined by Yavanna. __________________ "'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis

06-25-2002, 11:25 AM	#9
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,313	I think Tolkien's dislike in the horrors of indrustrialization is made clearest in the chapter "Flotsam & Jetsam". When Orthanc is flooded and "great machines" make a steam. the day is saved by Ents. the power of nature prevailed (in Tolkien's world). __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

06-29-2002, 05:43 AM	#10
Shadow of Udûn Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Sydney Posts: 32	I don't think that Tolkein was saying that nature was always fantastic. I think he was just as interested in showing it's brutality, as well as it's incredible beauty. Mount Caradhras, for instance, is almost a living thing, which seems to delight in thwarting the Fellowship's passage. And, after all, Mount Doom is natural. Certainly Tolkein was writing about nature in a wonderful manner, but he was also saying that nature can be brutal as well as kind. Then again, perhaps that's a moral. Elve's live in harmony with nature, and their lives are care free and happy. Orcs, the very opposite of elves, live in conflict with nature, and each other, and live lives which are described as pretty miserable. Sauron twists the earth to his own uses. Tolkein probably wasn't a conservationist in the modern vein, but he was certainly giving a message about what happens when we don't live in harmony with nature - that we can't live in harmony with each other. __________________ What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow...

07-02-2002, 03:37 PM	#11
The Silver-shod Muse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX Posts: 388	I was struck by the sense of overpowering distance and wilderness in Middle Earth. One of the changes I resented from the movie was that Peter Jackson made the incident on Caradhras Saruman's trick. This, coupled with Tom Bombadil's absence, depleted the sense of mystery and the great unknown powers and enigmas of nature that Tolkien had so artfully woven into LotR. __________________ "'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis