Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
02-03-2014, 11:21 AM | #1 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 55
|
Your Take On Eöl & Maeglin
Apart from Feanor and his more despicable children, these are probably the two most infamous elves.
Eöl at the very least tends to be vilified quite a lot online from what I can see. There s apparently another telling of the story between him and Maeglin's mother where he outright rapes her or forces her or something. But that isn't in The Silmarillion so i don't care about it. Based just on The Sil, he was initially not such a bad guy as far as I'm concerned. He liked his solitude and disliked other elves and that was it. He used some manner of enchantment to lead Aredhel to him but there's nothing at all to even vaguely suggest he forced her to stay with him. She fell in love with him of her own free will and they were happy for a time. Then he kinda went overboard with his possessiveness but my main point is that often he is painted as always having been some kind of a monster and I don't see it. Maeglin meanwhile gets an unfair rap with the whole "the only Elf ever to turn to Morgoth" thing. But ya know, I'd still take him over Feanor. It took literal torture by the hands of the most evil being ever to exist to break him, even if he had seeds of lust already planted within. Moreover, it was desire for a woman that prompted his actions and I can understand that infinitely more than desire for jewels. And of cours all of that came after being orphaned in a rather dramatic and obviously taumatizing way. So that's my two cents. How about you? Do you view them as black-hearted villains or more greyish antagonists? |
02-03-2014, 12:31 PM | #2 | |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 7
|
Quote:
but not a main antagonist. |
|
02-03-2014, 01:08 PM | #3 |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
|
Eöl to me is a pretty unsympathetic character just because of his surliness. Based on the story as told in The Silmarillion, Aredhel was by no means forced into marriage with him though, even though he did manipulate her path in the woods to draw her to him.
Ultimately, I think the "judgement" on him was not unfavorable, at least from the point of view of the Valar. I base that on the fact that his uttered curse of Maeglin "Here may you yet die the same death as I", seems to have been fulfilled, as Maeglin was slain by falling himself. Maybe that says Maeglin was judged to have committed the greater evils of the two.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God. |
02-03-2014, 01:20 PM | #4 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The Deepest Forges of Ered Luin
Posts: 733
|
I've always thought of Eol as a hermit who's more misanthropic than evil (his attempted crime of passion at Gondolin, notwithstanding).
Maeglin's rap was deserved. He was jealous and lusted after his first cousin (!). He also wilted under pressure when facing Morgoth, where others like Hurin didn't (probably because his heart was already so tainted).
__________________
Even as fog continues to lie in the valleys, so does ancient sin cling to the low places, the depression in the world consciousness. Last edited by Andsigil; 02-03-2014 at 02:01 PM. |
02-03-2014, 03:05 PM | #5 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,509
|
Eol has always been one of my favorite Tolkien characters. Quite different than the insufferable Noldor, and a character that Tolkien actually imbued with a distinct persona, unlike most of the tediously perfect Elves in his works.
Tolkien may not have liked his creation morally (and nearly every character Tolkien dislikes morally finds a nasty end), but like Milton's Lucifer being far more real and living than the Archangel Michael in Paradise Lost (the great William Blake slyly noted that Milton was "of the Devil's party without knowing it."), Tolkien obviously found creating Eol more interesting than most of the generic elves he portrayed, even editing out the rape of Aredhel to more of a seductiion so that Eol would not appear utterly evil.
__________________
And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
02-03-2014, 05:33 PM | #6 | |
shadow of a doubt
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
Posts: 1,125
|
Quote:
And yeah I like Eöl too, as a character he also comes out vividly. Feels like I understand how he thinks, and it makes sense from his point of view, though he really isn't a pleasant fellow, is he? Maeglin is a cool character too. Morally he really is detestable. Ungrateful son, ungrateful foster-son, traitor to all. But still, you can feel for him, he had some rough times.
__________________
"You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan |
|
02-03-2014, 06:06 PM | #7 |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
|
I think Maeglin is more cold than cool. He's calculating and self-centered. If he'd been raised by his father in isolated Nan Elmoth that might be explicable, but he's instead welcomed into the top tier of Gondolin society and treated like a prince, which he basically is. He then, out of all the women in the city, decides on his first cousin as a love interest. That alone doesn't speak well for him, as such unions were obviously considered to be of evil in Arda. The later Ar-Pharazön took that even further, of course, forcibly taking his cousin to wife. Maeglin was promised "possession" of Idril by Morgoth as a reward for his treachery, and that also speaks of less a true love than a desire for power and control.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God. |
02-03-2014, 07:08 PM | #8 |
shadow of a doubt
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
Posts: 1,125
|
I'm with you bro. Maeglin is horrible. I can certainly see why the Elves single him out as the worst traitor of their kind. No excuse for that sort of stuff. The sins of, say, Feanor isn't even close. He's a nice fictional character though. That Aredhel/Eöl/Maeglin sub-story is one of my favorites in the Silmarillion, and I love how it weaves into the Tuor story-line and the Fall of Gondolin and well, just about every story.
__________________
"You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan |
02-03-2014, 07:55 PM | #9 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 55
|
Quote:
Feanor was an awful, awful person and has no excuse for anything he did. He did more harm to the world than anyone save the Dark Lords. Last edited by Nikkolas; 02-03-2014 at 08:04 PM. |
|
02-04-2014, 04:31 AM | #10 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien
Posts: 462
|
Quote:
Certainly Feanor was a leader in the uprising of the Noldor, but he was not the lone leader as it is mentioned there were other princes of the Noldor who were leaders, Galadriel for instance who was banned from Valinor. When Melkor spoke of weapons to them it was not just Fëanor who built weapons, nor he alone who had desires of ruling his own kingdom without the overreach of the Valar. Fëanor's father whom, ""was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?" [Sil., ch. 9, p. 88] was murdered. He loved his father most of all. If the murder of Maeglin's mother could have a negative impact on him so could Fëanor's father with himself, "he was distraught with grief for the slaying of his father" [p. 92]. It seems to some degree his father's death snapped Fëanor who thought, "in the madness of his rage and grief that had he been at Formenos his strength would have availed more than to be slain also, as Melkor had purposed." [p. 88] I think Fëanor used his power to manipulate his people and to urge them on from Aman, "the Noldor were stirred to madness" [p. 92]. However, it was not as if Fëanor was the lone person who had the shadow of darkness on him. As you see others may have seen it in him, but failed to notice it in themselves and everyone else around them. I think the responsibility for the deaths of the Noldor does not fall on Fëanor's shoulders alone because these people chose to go with him and some like Finarfin did not.
__________________
"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
|
02-04-2014, 04:41 AM | #11 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien
Posts: 462
|
And Fëanor did not join forces with Melkor to set up his people's destruction. His purpose was one of revenge for his greatest love [father] against his greatest hate [Melkor], "none of the Eldalië ever hated Melkor more than Fëanor".
__________________
"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
02-04-2014, 06:29 AM | #12 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 55
|
Revenge, or the desire to reclaim his pretty gems? Was the Oath of Feanor that doomed all his sons and so many others to misery "I shall kill Morgoth" or "i shall reclaim the Silmarils at all costs"? Exactly. And if Feanor loved his father, he wouldn't have betrayed and hated his father's sons. His father's blood ran iN Fingolfin's veins too and yet Feanor was perfectly content to leave them all to die. After he committed unprovoked murder."
So, no, just because he hated Melkor doesn't make him better than Maeglin. Maeglin never killed his fellow elves for no reason. |
02-04-2014, 12:58 PM | #13 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,509
|
Quote:
The Kinslaying and the irrevocable oath forced on his sons were Feanor's great sins and there is no forgiving those, but that is a tragedy of overriding ambition mingled with hate; however, Maeglin's betrayal of his own kin to Morgoth himself was a Cardinal Sin amongst the Elves. You make the odd statement "Maeglin never killed his fellow elves for no reason", and I am utterly flummoxed at such a misguided comment. Maeglin's lust for his first cousin (another sin tantamount to incest to the Elves) was the main factor in his betrayal. It's a rather sick notion, and no other Elf would betray his own relatives to The Great Enemy of the World.
__________________
And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
|
02-04-2014, 03:03 PM | #14 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 55
|
Did Maeglin get up one day and say "I'm going to betray everyone so I can get my cousin?" No. He was captured, tortured, and broken by the greatest evil ever to exist. Pardon if i can sympathize with horrific pain Maeglin experienced more than Feanor merely losing his dad. It was tragic yes but how many people, Elves, Men, Dwarves, lost their fathers in all the Ages? And yet probably not even 1% of them went on to commit the atrocities Feanor did.
|
02-04-2014, 03:12 PM | #15 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
|
Quote:
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God. |
|
02-04-2014, 03:40 PM | #16 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,509
|
Quote:
__________________
And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
|
02-04-2014, 04:23 PM | #17 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The Deepest Forges of Ered Luin
Posts: 733
|
Quote:
He would have done well to follow the example of Hurin, who suffered far more at Morgoth's hands.
__________________
Even as fog continues to lie in the valleys, so does ancient sin cling to the low places, the depression in the world consciousness. |
|
02-04-2014, 04:42 PM | #18 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 276
|
I am not very keen on either of them.
Melian commenting on the dark nature of Eol still residing in his sword should tell us a lot about what sort of man he was. The whole situation with Aredhel does not sit well with me either. It seems like she was 'not completely unwilling,' but it was a case of I would only marry you if you were the last man alive. Trapped in the woods and the only elf being Eol kind of forced her hand. I personally don't blame him for deciding to go after his son. It seems Maeglin was still under the age of majority and he had the right to decide his best interest. I don't even blame him for choosing to fight rather than remain in Gondlin. The issue is that he decided to kill his son. A parent, whose pride is more important than his or her child is something I frown upon. Then in the end he curses his son to die as he did. Again he would be a nobler man if he could forgive his son at this point. Maeglin had a tough childhood, but it's hard to look past his betrayal. As it says it was his lust for Idril and hatred for Tuor that led to it. Even the strongest of men can be broken by torture let alone when an evil Valar like Morgoth is administrating the punishment. However, Maeglin was far too keen to kill Earendil and take Idril for himself. It seemed to me like it was almost an excuse for him to get what he wanted. The comparison with Feanor is an interesting one, but Feanor had more redeeming qualities like the great love for his father. Maeglin really does not have many admirable qualities at all except for his physical/mental talents. |
|
|