Why didn't Saruman kill the Ents himself?

[Smaug The Golden]

Recently I've been thinking about Saruman's military strategy during the War of The Ring. I've been pondering certain things about it and want to hear some other's thoughts.


First question, why did Saruman attack Rohan so prematurely with his army? Would it not have made more sense to wait until Sauron attacked Minas Tirith, and then attack Rohan in a joint assault? Neither nation would be able to reinforce the other, and most likely both battles would've been won by the aggressors.



Another question I was thinking of was, why did Saruman not fight the Ents himself when they attacked Isengard? Saruman being a Maiar had great power, though it was restricted by being an Istari. But regardless, would he have been able to fight off the Ents attacking his fortress? Gandalf fought Durin's Bane on equal footing (and we know Balrogs are far more powerful than Ents) so I'm curious why Saruman did not leave Orthanc to destroy the attacking Ents.


Would like to hear other's insight.

[Zigûr]

why did Saruman attack Rohan so prematurely with his army?

It didn't seem premature at the time. He was not expecting to have to assault a fortification like the Hornburg, because he did not think Théoden would recover. He didn't know about Gandalf's activities in Rohan, healing the King and freeing Éomer from imprisonment, until Wormtongue arrived at Isengard, by which time it was much too late. He'd already defeated Rohan twice at the Fords of Isen, after which time he must have assumed that the Hornburg would not have the manpower it did, nor that Gandalf would have time to find Erkenbrand and bring reinforcements to their succour, nor still that the Huorns would come to destroy the remains of his army.

why did Saruman not fight the Ents himself when they attacked Isengard?

He did. He spilled fire and boiling steam on them from his forges and had his orcs attack them with arrows and axes - but that's the problem. Saruman had spent his power in machinery and soldiers. He could not have emerged from Orthanc and gone toe-to-toe with Treebeard in the ring of Isengard. All his power was bound up in his devices and slaves. Also, Saruman knew that the Ents could not harm Orthanc itself, so it would probably make more sense to hide in the tower than risk harm by coming out and fighting the Ents in person. Note that Gandalf recommends that Treebeard fill Isengard with water until it stops draining away, because he suspected that Saruman might have escape tunnels dug beneath Orthanc should he have needed to leave in a hurry. So Saruman did try to fight, but only with the means which he possessed by then.

That is at least how I read the situation.

[Sarumian]

I think as well that Saruman considered that the situation had ripened for the decisive blow. Saruman had a formidable army. Having won the battle at the Fords of Izen, he could expect little resistance from anyone but Eomer, who was legally an outcast, was far away and did not have too many men under his command.

Grimma was expelled after the war had already began; thus we can be re-formulate the question -

Why did Saruman decide to move all his force into Rohan having lost his control over king Theoden?

It seems, he correctly estimated that any manpower that Theoden was able to muster would be insufficient to hold against Saruman's army. Therefore everything was in favour of taking a quick, decisive action. He could not expect that:

1. Theoden would be able to hold Hornburg until Eomer returns;
2. He could not expect that Farngorn would come to help Rohan - it was something totally unthinkable.

We also know that Sauron had not prepared to attack Gondor by that time. He was still preoccupied with bringing the army of Minas Morgul up to strength when he discovered a hobbit looking into a Palantir, found out that Izengard had fallen and concluded that the Ring with a hobbit and Aragorn was on the way to Minas Tirith. Pipin's obsession with Palantir resulted in the situation when Sauron launched his assault on Gondor too early and, lost the battle for this reason.

I tend to think, Saruman's position was so tricky that he in fact did not intend to wait for Sauron. In the book (unlike to the movie) Saruman was not Sauron's puppet; he dreamt about obtaining the Ring; he did not allow Witch King into Izengard when the Nine were searching for the Ring and Baggins; as I remember the reason was that began creating his army without Sauron's permission and didn't want to show it as it would have been an evidence of his treachery against Sauron. I believe, Saruman wanted to built up a considerable power base before Sauron could defeat Gondor in order to make a better agreement. May be he expected to be appointed a "viceroy" of the West or North-West (excluding Gondor) at least.

[Sarumian]

Answering the second question, I tend to think that some confusion comes from the difference between the book and the movie.

In the movie a little force of Ents march on the almost empty Izengard. Although such a version of events seems consistent with the rest of the story, it significantly differs from the book narrative. In the book the army of Farngorn was much larger and consisted mainly of Huorns, tree-ish creatures, capable of thinking, moving very quickly and talking to Ents and each other (but not to other races). This army under the command of Ents marched firstly to Hornburg, where they joined Eomer's troops and together destroyed Saruman's army. After that they moved to Izengard and had it taken by storm before Gandalf and K arrived. Therefore, Saruman faced not just few Ents, but a formation of several dozens (if not few hundreds) of creatures who were determined and more robust than trolls, showing no mercy to their enemies. Saruman could hardly hope to discourage them morally or subject them to sudden panic as they themselves were capable of producing irrational horror in others.

As Zigûr says, most of Saruman's power was "invested" into his army and machinery. As I can understand the economy of power in Tolkien's universe, with the loss of the army this power was also lost for good (as it happened to Melkor in the end of the First Age). At that stage Saruman was much weaker than Gandalf the Grey facing the Balrog.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

As Zigur says, most of Saruman's magic power was "invested" into his army and machinery. As I can understand the economy of power in Tolkien's universe, this power was lost for good with the loss of the army (as it happened to Melkor in the end of the First Age). At that stage Saruman was much weaker than Gandalf the Grey facing the Balrog.

Zigûr makes some good points indeed. To that I would add that, as fire seems to be the only really effective weapon against Ents, Saruman was ill-equipped to deal with them as far as personal power goes. His main strength was in his voice, with persuasiveness. Gandalf was the one who was identified with fire.
Saruman might have had a better shot trying the soft approach with Treebeard, trying to talk him out of destroying Isengard (as his convincing Treebeard to allow him to leave later on shows), but for that to have worked would probably have required getting Treebeard to be both quiet and alone, and neither of those conditions would seem to be easy.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Smaug The Golden

Recently I've been thinking about Saruman's military strategy during the War of The Ring. I've been pondering certain things about it and want to hear some other's thoughts.

I wrote a couple of things in this thread about Saruman as a military commander:
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=16451

In a nutshell: being a Maia and having lived a long time doesn't make one a good commander. Saruman showed a lack of sound strategic thinking in terms of simplicity and objective. Just as his name, Curunir, could suggest, he may have been a bit too cunning/elegant/nuanced/clever for his own good.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I wrote a couple of things in this thread about Saruman as a military commander:
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=16451

In a nutshell: being a Maia and having lived a long time doesn't make one a good commander. Saruman showed a lack of sound strategic thinking in terms of simplicity and objective. Just as his name, Curunir, could suggest, he may have been a bit too cunning/elegant/nuanced/clever for his own good.

It's an interesting thread. I totally agree with you that

Saruman made something of a "split the difference" decision, which was bad either way.

I would say, treachery is a very dodgy strategy that quite often leads to such a "split". Saruman made himself caught between two sides fighting to death. Sauron had enough potential to win with or without the Ring, provided it was not used against him or destroyed (something he could not even imagine). Thus Sauron's strategy was clear - to conquer the world as soon as his forces are ready, searching for the Ring with smaller forces at the same time.

Saruman was in much worse situation for apparent reasons. He had not enough manpower at his disposal to defeat most of his enemies and thus only the Ring could provide him with the chance to turn the tide. He, on the other hand, wanted to survive in any situation. Thus he had to split his activities pursuing two different objectives.

1. Programme maximum - obtaining and mastering the Ring;
2. Programme minimum - conquering Rohan, creating a big strong army and offering Sauron his allegiance in exchange to some prominent position and a domain.

In given situation Saruman could hardly do better. Sending an army of several thousands to retrieve the Ring? It would be an act of such an apparent disobedience to Sauron that would ruin any chance of survival without the Ring. Shall we also think of what the Ring itself could do to a bigger army? It started causing internal skirmishes even within a small force. Saruman did not have Nazgul for safe transportation of the Ring.

Going in person? It would have been even worse in case of a failure. Such a force could have been engaged by Loth-Lorien and Gondor without even spotting the Fellowship. A personal encounter with Nazgul, eager to ask some questions, was a dreadful option too. And the conquest of Rohan would have been delayed, may be lost if Grimma had been ousted in the end.

A scout troop of few hundreds was not an issue in relations with Sauron, while it was quite enough to deal with the Fellowship without Gandalf. It probably had been around for a while before the Fellowship left Lorien and was spotted. It seemed strong enough to fight off a normal band of riders - Eomer's army was something unexpected.

And yes, Saruman did not show any sign of being a particularly gifted field commander as well.

[Rhod the Red]

I think I recall Gandalf speculating that one reason was a fear Saruman might have had of King Theoden wearing the One Ring.

[Nikkolas]

I kinda touched on this matter in my own thread
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...hlight=Saruman

I think the confusion is understandable - Gandalf the Grey, an inferior power to Saruman the White, had an epic struggle with a Balrog. Fighting the Ent's forces seems like nothign in comparison.
But Inziladun supplied a great quote that may hold the answer:

'I don't know what Saruman thought was happening; but anyway he did not know how to deal with it. His wizardry may have been falling off lately, of course; but anyway I think he has not got much grit, not much plain courage alone in a tight place without a lot of slaves and machines and things, if you know what I mean. Very different from old Gandalf.'

Saruman is perhaps just not suited for combat, lacking the necessary courage or fortitude to expend himself and his essence in a life-threatening manner like Gandalf did.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

I think I recall Gandalf speculating that one reason was a fear Saruman might have had of King Theoden wearing the One Ring.

Yes, he did that when he met Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli in Fangorn.

[tom the eldest]

Saruman wont count the ents in his scheme,because he thinks like this "nah the ents wont do nothing.they are no threats,even if i chopped them donw and burn their trees for fuel.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

Saruman is perhaps just not suited for combat, lacking the necessary courage or fortitude to expend himself and his essence in a life-threatening manner like Gandalf did.

Another factor may have been that Saruman had already begun following the path of Sauron and Morgoth before him - to whit, expending his native power to dominate and subjugate slaves, armies and (he desired) other peoples. While the total power may have been greater than Gandalf, it was more disbursed and, in a way, more vulnerable to being destroyed piecemeal.

Thus, when Morgoth's armies were destroyed in the War of Wrath, what remained (Morgoth, himself) hid in fear and was THEN easily captured and taken back to judgement.

And when Sauron's armies were destroyed in the Last Alliance, what remained (Sauron, himself) could be fought and defeated in direct, physical combat by an Elf and a Man (or by three Elves and two men).

Likewise, Saruman's power was being (probably he wasn't as far on this path as Sauron) disbursed in his slaves and to focus his power would have meant focusing all his armies and arming them to fight and burn a walking forest. But, by the time his armies came to grips with Huorns, many of them had already been killed by the Rohirrim and the rest were demoralized and ill prepared to battle walking trees.

Gandalf had never disbursed his native power and so was better equipped to face a Balrog (and even he failed to survive).

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Why did Saruman decide to move all his force into Rohan having lost his control over king Theoden?

Wormtongue didn't actually reach Orthanc with the news until it was too late: Saruman's army had been crushed at the Hornburg the night before, and Isengard was a steaming, flooded wreck.

OTOH, an unpublished time-scheme indicates that Saruman was notified by his bird-spies of the riding of several eoreds from Edoras westward (which, one might presume, he assumed like Ceorl did to be led by Eomer or some other marshal) .... and it was precisely in response to this that that night he launched the second assault on the Fords and the invasion of western Rohan. It seems his motivation, as I read it, was to overwhelm Elfhelm and Grimbold before they could be reinforced, and to destroy Rohan's army in detail. In this case we would have in miniature the situation with Aragorn/Palantir/Sauron: a move by the Allies provokes a hastily fatal couintermove by the Enemies.