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01-19-2014, 01:40 PM | #1 |
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Elven Characteristics
Hello, unfortunately I do not own the HoME. I would like to ask if there is any passage which says that elves are more slender than humans and that they're beardless. I think in the Lost Tales there is a passage where the elves of Gondolin are astonished at Tuors deep voice. Does anyone else know this passage? Did Tolkien imagine elves with higher voices than humans? Thank you!
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01-19-2014, 01:57 PM | #2 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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01-20-2014, 08:51 AM | #3 | ||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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It's also noted that the Noldoli that came forth to see Tuor marvelled at his stature and gaunt limbs. At the moment I'm not sure about slenderness but I think maybe the Elves of the Lost Tales were notably shorter than they would later become, especially considering some old descriptions, including: Quote:
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The concept of the Elves and Men being of like height -- because Men were smaller 'back then' and Elves taller -- appears in the Lay of Turin, but when we get to the 'early Silmarillions' and Silmarillion-related texts of the 1930s we seem to move to simpler comparisons between Men and Elves -- that is, they are of like height, with Men somewhat taller (especially the Hadorians), but without the comparative reference to the stature of Men in earlier times versus 'now'. And then again there are even later references to Elven height, compared to Men or Numenoreans. I think the external chronology [when Tolkien wrote what text] is important here, even if it doesn't necessarily answer all our questions. Last edited by Galin; 01-20-2014 at 09:00 AM. |
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01-20-2014, 01:02 PM | #4 |
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@Alfirin: Thank you!
@Galin: Oh no, now I'm even more confused! I always imagined elves taller than humans. So actually we do not know what Tolkien thought towards the end of his life, and even that would have been transitory. I guess I'll just go with my own imagination. Thank you! |
01-20-2014, 02:10 PM | #5 | ||
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In the Grey Annals we have this statement for year 422:
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Quendi and Eldar has the following: Quote:
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01-20-2014, 04:06 PM | #6 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I would imagine the elves in general were tall and wiry. Closer to the Aragorn build than Boromir. |
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01-20-2014, 05:41 PM | #7 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Anyway- welcome to the Downs!
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01-20-2014, 05:48 PM | #8 | ||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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In '1968 or later', according to a text called Of Dwarves And Men we have: Quote:
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Anyway, both texts are late. Another (seemingly) late note says that Celeborn was held by the Lindar of Valinor to be tall: '... but the Teleri were in general somewhat less in build and stature than the Noldor.' (this note is mentioned in the same section as the following on Galadriel). In yet another late note (Appendix, Numenorean Linear Measures, Unfinished Tales) Galadriel is noted as six foot four. And in The Lord of the Rings it was said concerning Galadriel and Celeborn: 'Very tall they were, and the Lady no less tall than the Lord;...' There is also (now) variant text concerning Elendil the Tall -- well, I consider it variant from Unfinished Tales anyway. 'Aragorn, direct descendant of Elendil and his son Isildur, both of whom had been seven feet tall, must nonetheless have been a very tall man…, probably at least 6 ft. 6; and Boromir, of high Númenorean lineage, not much shorter (say 6 ft. 4).' longer version... Quote:
But there's some relatively late citations; and much later than The Book of Lost Tales anyway |
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01-20-2014, 05:50 PM | #9 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Didn't see your post earlier Nerwen, but yes you are correct about what I meant.
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01-21-2014, 03:03 PM | #10 |
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Thank you so much
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01-22-2014, 05:56 AM | #11 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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By the way, anyone think that the following two descriptions are intended to be consonant with each other:
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And... Quote:
Or to put it another, another way: if Tolkien believed the first description was 'true' when he wrote the second, do you think he would write this second general description this way? I think the second seems like a slight 'revision' [or the first, considering I don't know which came before the other] but at least one other person disagrees and [seemingly] finds them in easy accord with each other. |
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01-22-2014, 07:37 AM | #12 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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The second statement is more concerned with a minimum height. It seems if in general the shortest of the Noldor were 6'6 then the average height would likely be close to 7ft. The only trouble with this is the description of Celeborn. Let'say that Celeborn indeed was tall for a Sindarin. Let's even allow for him to be a couple of inches taller than Galadriel at 6'6. It would mean that there was such a big difference in stature between the two that a Celeborn whilst very tall for a Sindar would still be one of the shorter Noldor. |
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01-23-2014, 09:32 AM | #13 | |
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... but to me that doesn't seem to mesh well with the other statement, in which it is generally noted that the Eldar and especially the Noldor were normally about 7 feet tall... ... as that's notably taller than the reference number in the other quote [a half a foot taller], and there it's not 'some' great kings and leaders, it's the normal height of the Eldar in general, a rather sweeping reference, even if we have more Noldor with 'especially'. That's why I tend to think Tolkien may be working with different ideas in the two, noting also that in a text likewise written in reaction to artwork by Pauline Baynes [which thus can be paired with the 6 foot 6 quote], Elendil appears reduced [if compared to the 'rangar' description in Unfinished Tales anyway] from being nearly 8 feet tall to a 'mere' 7 feet tall. Tolkien might have 'realized' for Thingol [and possibly other great Elves] to have been taller than Elendil he might have to shorten the conceptions up just a bit. |
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01-24-2014, 10:16 AM | #14 | ||
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Professor gives a bit about elven appearance in "Laws and Customs among the Eldar" (published in "Morgoth's ring (HoME 10)). In this he states that childrens of Men and Eldar seems alike in spirit (untainted by evil of the world and burden of memories), but...
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01-24-2014, 10:25 AM | #15 | |
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I personally have never been overly concerned with the sometime lack of information on personal appearances. Imagination is a large piece of what makes reading enjoyable to me. I don't want to know everything. And by the way, welcome to the Downs!
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01-24-2014, 11:22 AM | #16 | |
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Here's one that not only helps with Elwe, but describes some characteristics of the Noldor and Sindar. I break the text to add a paragraph here.
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I have found a number of general references to hair colour and tallness, but not for example, to hair style [see the thread 'hairy-pottering' for instance], except a few when in reference to a particular Elf. Tolkien even introduced red, or red-brown [or coppery coloured] hair among Nerdanel's kin, and at least a couple of references to a 'ruddy' complexion. JRRT even altered some of the names of Feanor's sons to match up with this new hair colour detail [which has caused a fair amount of confusion or at least conflation on the web in my opinion]... ... but anyway Tolkien still leaves plenty to the imagination I think. And there is yet again the matter of external chronology. For another example, the text on Elven children from Morgoth's Ring might have been superseded by later description that appears to indicate Men and Elves grew to adulthood at basically the same rate. Laws And Customs is a relatively late text too, but JRRT could take even a long held idea and 'suddenly' discard it, as he did with the mode of Elven reincarnation for example [in other words he revised the mode in which Elves are reincarnated, not the fact that they were reincarnated]. For some time [which might not be not much longer than the time it took to write the text itself] JRRT even mused on changing the meaning of the term Noldor to refer to hair colour! But then he went back to having it mean 'Those who know' For another instance, in one text [see Words, Phrases, and Passages in Parma Eldalamberon] Tolkien writes that no Elf had absolutely black hair, but in a later text he simply uses the word 'black' when describing the hair of certain Elves. We might keep in mind that JRRT was certainly free enough to change his mind if something had not already been published. Sometimes his changing ideas can be confusing, but he didn't know that so much of his texts and notes would someday be so available to his readership. What's the interweb? For example Last edited by Galin; 01-24-2014 at 12:11 PM. |
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01-25-2014, 01:46 PM | #17 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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The passage in my opinion could be read like this. 'The minimum height for elvish males was 6'6. The minimum height for elvish women was 6'0. Some of the nobility were even taller than the normal height though' In other passages we learn that the normal height was close to 7ft. Quote:
Elendil's height is not reduced in anyway. In the Unfinished Tales he gave us an accurate exact height for Elendil being around 7'10. In notes elsewhere he generalised that Isildur and Elendil had been 7ft. The statements once more are not contradictory unless you want them to be. When I say a rugby team was full of 6 footers, I don't mean that everyone in the team was exactly 6 ft. I mean that everyone was at least 6ft. Unless the information contradicts itself I see no reason to not accept the harmonious version. Minimum height for most Noldor 6'6. Average height for most Noldor under 7ft Great Lords like Turgon 7ft+. |
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01-26-2014, 10:35 AM | #18 | |||||
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There is no indication in the passage concerned that Elendil is taller than 7 feet. And I note Hammond and Scull's presentation of the two accounts in their Reader's Companion to The Lord of the Rings [see Numenoreans in the index, the first reference here is to the 'rangar account' published posthumously in Unfinished Tales]: Quote:
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Last edited by Galin; 01-26-2014 at 10:45 AM. |
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01-26-2014, 10:11 PM | #19 | |||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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In one place he makes a rough note about a picture on general height. In the other he gives an exact height, supported by other published material. Quote:
Tolkien never in that paragraph describes 6'6 as being a standard or even an average height. It's a general minimum height. Quote:
In the paragraph quoted, Tolkien is not talking about an average height for Eldar men and women. He first gives the general minimum height for women, which is 6'0. No where is it indicated that the average for a male is 6'6. In more than one account Tolkien goes into detail about the Numenoreans being around 7ft tall on average. the Hobbits of the Shire were in height between three and four feet, never less and seldom more. They did not of course call themselves Halflings; this was a Numenorean name for them. It evidently referred to their height in comparison with Numenorean men and was approximately accurate when given.-UT but he (Elendil) was said to be 'more than man-high' by nearly half a ranga; but he was accounted the tallest of all the Numenoreans who escaped the downfall [and indeed was generally known as the tall] Earlier he tells us that 6'4 was not really an average height for Numenoreans, but a general term and even this was after they had declined in height. We have a lot of accurate measurements of height given and I don't see why we should dismiss it all for an ambiguous note, which can be read in different ways. Last edited by cellurdur; 01-26-2014 at 10:48 PM. |
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01-27-2014, 09:52 AM | #20 | ||||||
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Your choice of words above, a rugby team 'full of 6 footers', is not exactly the phrasing Tolkien employs for the Eldar in any case [whether or not they played rugby aside]; and not that you said otherwise, but I see no reason why Elendil's own son could not match him in height. Quote:
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Thanks again to the scholarship of Hammond and Scull, with respect to the 'halfling' idea as it relates to the Numenoreans, we now have: 'three variant statements, written c. 1969, with some repetition as Tolkien develops the text' (only part of which was printed in Unfinished Tales). In the third section [the more developed section?] as printed in the Reader's Companion, Tolkien writes: Quote:
But again, is Tolkien being consistent in any case? Hammond and Scull also point out that in The Hobbit [thus published by JRRT himself of course] it is noted that Hobbits were 'about half our height' and in a letter Tolkien referred to Bilbo as about 3 feet tall or 3 feet 6 inches. Well, which is it? Three feet tall would explain 'halfling' well enough in a world where Men were reaching 6 feet tall [and half 'our' height hardly refers to Numeoreans I would say], but 3 foot 6 would mean we should be talking about a much taller people. Anyway, Elendil is a notable person here, historically. He need not be the only person to ever reach this height to acquire such a nickname... ... I note Maedhros the Tall wasn't the tallest Elf ever [Thingol was taller], nor even the tallest Elf in Aman if we allow that 'Turgon himself would appear 'tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol' (Of Tuor And His Coming to Gondolin). That is, if we forget the later account, or explain it in some way, where Argon is seemingly said to be taller than Turgon in The Shibboleth of Feanor. That's if all these descriptions were made with each other in mind too, which I tend to doubt with respect to Argon and Turgon actually, although there is a way to explain how these two statements can both be true, since Argon was slain relatively early. Moreover, if Tolkien wants to retain a given concept about 'Halfling' being a Numenorean term, and thus retain 'taller' Hobbits in the past for instance, but feels that he must explain 'Elendil the Tall' as notably tall among the Numenoreans of his time, or among those with whom he escaped the fall of Numenor at least, he can in turn make Elendil not 'merely' 7 feet tall but, say, 7 feet 2 or 3 inches... ... and doing so I think he could still retain the general idea about the Eldar expressed in reaction to the artwork of Pauline Baynes. Yes that would mean tinkering with the 'artwork quote' itself, or making it more general than accurate -- I'm not actually against the notion that Tolkien might be speaking a bit generally here when he describes both Isildur and Elendil as 7 feet tall -- what I think is too strained however is that he really imagines a nearly 8 foot Elendil whe he wrote the 'artwork description'. That's too significant a difference in my opinion, even if Tolkien is not being specifically accurate. Quote:
And you're not necessarily wrong as far as Tolkien's intent, but I see a difference with respect to interpreting the 'artwork quote' as it stands, alone an unaffected by another idea: again, interpret A without mixing in B to see if you find the two statements in accord. Maybe I'm crazy but 'some' of the Kings and leaders being taller naturally begs the question 'taller than what'? And to answer that you are seemingly employing another citation [normally 7 feet from Of Dwarves And Men] instead of using the context of the description in which the statement is found. Last edited by Galin; 01-27-2014 at 10:00 AM. |
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01-27-2014, 01:50 PM | #21 | |||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Isildur was undoubtedly very tall himself, but his incredible height was never a distinguishing feature for him as it was his father. Quote:
'Their height is variable ranging between two and four feet of our measure. They seldom now reach three feet; but they have dwindled they say, and in ancient days they were taller.'-Prologue LOTR The note that clarifies this is found in UT. 'The remarks [on the stature of Hobbits] in the prologue to LOTR are unnecessarily vague and complicated, owing to the inclusions of of references to survivals of the race in later times; but as LOTR is concerned they boil down to this: the Hobbits of the Shire were in height between three and four feet, never less and seldom more.' Then in the Peoples of Middle Earth further information is given about the height of the Hobbits. I won't quote it, but it has the quote about Numenoreans being about 7ft and then says Hobbits were rarely over 3'6. Quote:
Through out several different notes Tolkien has maintained or hinted (by the very use of Halflings in LOTR) that the Numenoreans were twice their height. He then in multiple sources writes that Hobbits were between 3ft and 4ft. Even in the description of Aragorn and Boromir as 6'6 and 6'4 respectively we know that the Numenoreans have decreased in height. Even from that one rough note, the Numenoreans must have been close to 7ft. So that's an average of 6 foot 10 inches at this time for the Numenoreans. This actully seems to agree well enough with the other text, as this is well after the Downfall of Numenor, if still well before Aragorn's time. But again, is Tolkien being consistent in any case? Hammond and Scull also point out that in The Hobbit [thus published by JRRT himself of course] it is noted that Hobbits were 'about half our height' and in a letter Tolkien referred to Bilbo as about 3 feet tall or 3 feet 6 inches. Well, which is it? Three feet tall would explain 'halfling' well enough in a world where Men were reaching 6 feet tall [and half 'our' height hardly refers to Numeoreans I would say], but 3 foot 6 would mean we should be talking about a much taller people.[/QUOTE] I have addressed this point with Tolkien clarifying that Hobbits at the time of LOTR were between 3ft and 4ft. It is only in this 'present' day that Hobbits have shrunk to under 3ft. Quote:
This though is really not that important, because being a couple of inches taller than the average is unlikely to get you a nickname as Tall. Quote:
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Lastly about your interpretation 'some of the kings' being taller. If the minimum height was 6'6 for an Elvish male then what would the average height be? It would obviously be greater than the minimum. There is an assumption that the 'kings' are taller than the average which he has given elsewhere. |
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01-27-2014, 02:35 PM | #22 | ||
Wisest of the Noldor
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01-27-2014, 02:51 PM | #23 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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[QUOTE=Nerwen;689023]But somebody who is 5'10, like the aforementioned average British male, is not going to be described as "five foot tall".
[QUOTE]There is not a significant difference if Isildur were 7'3 or even 7'4. Their average height would be around 7'6 and so it would be correct to roughly pin them as 7 ft. Quote:
Or even in real life if you saw two men one being 6'6 and the other 6'1 you are likely to refer to both as 6ft. |
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01-28-2014, 08:34 AM | #24 | ||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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If so I can't agree. It's all posthumously published material, including the material published by the Linguistic Editorial Team for instance [Vinyar Tengwar, Parma Eldalamberon] which contains more than pure linguistic information about Middle-earth. Quote:
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In general nicknames can be funny things. For example, growing up in a relatively small group of friends the tallest person among us received a nickname to represent this. His sister was tallish too, and she awas given a nickname 'to match'. Quote:
But for a different example we have a relatively brief marginal note where Tolkien appears to toss away decades of thinking that there were very many Balrogs, in favour of 3 or at most 7 ever existing. Which idea is more likely to be correct in this case? One can gather up a number of quotes to illustrate hosts of Balrogs existing, or Balrogs 'one thousand' even, and together they might seem quite a strong case by comparison to one marginal note, and one revision to a text which itself [the revision] yet mentions no certain number. Of course the 'older' quotes will be consistent with each other as to number, but JRRT kows that his readership only knows so much about Durin's Bane, and he is thus free to radically alter the conception, making all the earlier descriptions part of a discarded notion. I'm not saying I know this to be true with respect to the artwork description, but I feel it's a reasonable possibility given the phrasing employed. And yes Of Dwarves And Men is an 'entire essay' but the remark on Eldarin height compared to Numenoreans [along with the Halfling reference] is one sentence within it if I recall correctly -- or if not one sentence it's brief enough, and obviously the essay is about much more. And Christopher Tolkien characterizes Numenorean Linear Measures [NLM] as: 'A note associated with the passage in 'The Disaster of the Gladden Fields'...' Incidentally, when writing NLM I wonder if Tolkien had remembered what he had already published about Eomer [and Eowyn] in Appendix A! I won't go into it here but in my opinion this is another [at least] arguable glitch of some measure, even though in the tale proper [The Lord of the Rings] Eomer does seem to be tall, generally speaking. Last edited by Galin; 01-28-2014 at 04:00 PM. |
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01-28-2014, 02:19 PM | #25 |
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I'd like to come back to the hair problem. Galin, what did you find on hairstyles? The thread 'hairy-pottering' does not really exist, does it? Could you tell us the passage where Tolkien describes elven hair as black?
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01-28-2014, 03:42 PM | #26 |
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Hi again Lisse. Here it is, but it's not very long (pun intended)
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...ight=pottering And about the matter of black hair, Tolkien wrote in 'Words, Phrases, Passages' (p. 155): 'The Noldor were generally hróva or morna' [these Elvish words are noted] 'morna black of hair: hróva 'dark, dark brown' In another entry JRRT seemed to think absolute black was not the case (same source): 'The predominant colour of Noldorin hair was very dark brown (no Elf had absolute black hair: morna)' I note here that Tolkien used morna, the word used in the previous citation. But even if this entry is later than the first, it appears possible that JRRT revised that no Elf was black of hair, as in The Shibboleth of Feanor (dated 1968 or later), for example, Finwe has 'black' hair (note 19). Or concerning Urundil (note 61): 'His hair was not as dark or black as was that of most of the Noldor, but brown, and had glints of coppery red in it.' Hmm |
01-28-2014, 07:00 PM | #27 | |||
Wisest of the Noldor
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I'm not saying either version is the "right" one, understand, just that they do seem to me to be clearly contradictory. I don't see why this should be a problem- authors always do rewrite things, and play with different ideas, and so on. Also- I guess I read your post in a hurry, because the first time I missed where you said "Christopher Tolkien has the right himself to define what is canon". As far as I know, this isn't the case, at least not in a way that would apply here. I mean, yes, he could have chosen not to publish, or make available, any of this. Again, I don't think that's relevant.
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01-28-2014, 07:48 PM | #28 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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And apologies to Lisse for further hijacking her thread (i.e. my last comment).
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01-28-2014, 09:12 PM | #29 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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’Upon Trust to allow my son Christopher full access to the same* in order that he may act as my Literary Executor with full power to publish edit alter rewrite or complete any work of mine which may be unpublished at my death or to destroy the whole or any part or parts of any such unpublished works as he in his absolute discretion may think fit and subject thereto’ *Unpublished works. Christopher Tolkien may rarely if at all use it, but he still has the power to define what is canon. Thus I think anything he publishes should be given weight over all other materials found. Back on topic this way of describing height happens fairly often. For instance when talking about the tall players in womens tennis they will say the new generation of 6ft players. Now the tallest may be around 6'3, but the general term of 6ft is used. I agree that describing someone as 6'6 as a 6 footer may be pushing it, but I don't think it's rare for someone 6'4 to be described as a 6 footer when in a group with other people over 6 foot. Here is an example of an article using the phrase here about a football team. And Eagles skipper Jedinak is ready for another battle with Tony Pulis' team of six-footers in tomorrow's replay as they attempt to secure a fourth-round tie with Manchester City. Now the tallest person in that team is over 6'7 and another is 6'6. |
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01-28-2014, 09:23 PM | #30 | ||||||
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When we look at English kings like Edward I, Edward II, Edward IV or Henry VIII they had to be over 6 inches taller than the average man for their height to be noted. Quote:
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01-28-2014, 10:44 PM | #31 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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cellurdur, it seems you have now shifted your goalposts regarding height descriptions. No doubt not a deliberate tactic, but whatever. You're not actually supporting your original contention anymore, as far as I can see.
Now, about Christopher Tolkien: yes, I know he has the legal right to publish (or not publish) and edit his father's writings. I already said that, remember? Again, I don't see what that has to do with it. If you were to argue that Christopher Tolkien's familiarity with his father (rather than any legal position) makes him a better judge of what the man really intended than an outsider... okay. But even that is very problematic. And, of course, it can't make a contradiction not a contradiction. That's the thing: it appears you're trying to argue simultaneously that the two versions agree with each other and that one should be considered wrong. I don't get it.
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. Last edited by Nerwen; 01-28-2014 at 10:49 PM. Reason: added comment. |
01-28-2014, 11:57 PM | #32 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Just as a clarification- by "your original contention", I mean this:
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01-29-2014, 04:47 AM | #33 | |
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1. That descroption of Elendil being 7ft is not really a problem, because this is often used to describe people, who are 7ft. I then gave a recent article where a team of individulas ranging from 6'1 to 6'7 were described in general terms as being 6ft. -I also pointed out that if the minimum height for the Eldar was 6'6 then the average height had to be taller -Aragorn was said to be 6'6 in the article, but we know he was a lot shorter than the Numenoreans of old. If Aragorn and Boromir, at 6'6 and 6'4 respectively, were shorter than the Numenoreans of old then they must have been close to 7ft on average -Elendil and Isildur were not the same height and therefore we can realise that the description of them being 7ft tall was not an accurate height The second argument is that if YOU still think there is a contradiction, which I DO NOT, then we should go with what Christopher Tolkien has published, because he has the right to delete or rewrite anything that was published. |
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01-29-2014, 06:57 AM | #34 | ||||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Christopher Tolkien is not 'deleting' any text that I'm aware of because it has less weight than something else. And even if he did, to my mind that doesn't change that JRR Tolkien is the creator of Middle-earth in the end. I'm sorry I don't follow this argument at all, and I agree with Nerwen here. Quote:
Well the artwork descripton I cited is itself a 'late text' too, and as I say, how brief is all the artwork commentary combined? It hasn't all been published yet. Not that I would necessarily be swayed about relative brevity in any case. Incidentally I asked Hammond and Scull if the artwork commentary possibly included the note concerning Celeborn on p. 286 in Unfinished Tales. I asked: 'The note on Hobbit stature must be meant, and Celeborn isn't in the artwork of course, but I wonder if the bit about Celeborn could be part of, or connected to, the description noted on p. 107 (a tall Elf) in the Reader's Companion.' They responded: Quote:
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I'm not. I've only got so many fingers and toes In any case the 'artwork descriptions' represent Tolkien's thinking at the time. They appear to be considered enough for me, and we don't have 'merely' 5 foot 10 or 11 for the Eldar for instance, nor even 6 feet to 6 feet 3 or 4 for most Eldar, for example, which if we did, we would then have the Numenoreans at their height towering over them by a full foot or nearly so in some cases. In short [no pun intended] the Eldar are still notably tall here, especially the great kings and leaders; and we read often enough about the Noldorin kings and leaders too. And yes we don't know the external chronology of a number of 'late texts' dealing with heights, which I acknowledged from the start. Last edited by Galin; 01-29-2014 at 09:45 AM. |
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01-29-2014, 07:51 AM | #35 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
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By the way, with respect to the artwork commentary from Tolkien, Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull revealed [at another forum, I underline one section here]:
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In a note to The Bladorthin Typescript (ii Bladorthin, note 14, Mr. Baggins), John Rateliff describes an essay written circa 1970 and now in the Bodleian Library (Tolkien Papers A61 a, fol. 1-31). Mr. Rateliff quotes a description of Gandalf from this essay (which includes 'Which should make him a short man even in modern England, especially with the reduction of a bent back' incidentally), noting also that it was written in response to Pauline Baynes' art for the poster-map of Middle-earth -- which included the Fellowship and Bill, and certain evil types too. |
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01-29-2014, 08:01 AM | #36 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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As for your second argument, I guess you mean it's a sort of backup, should you fail to convince anyone of the validity of the first one. Fair enough. But the argument itself- well, as you've simply stated it again, all I can do is say again that I don't see the point.
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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01-29-2014, 08:15 AM | #37 | ||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Tolkien may be the creator of the Middle-Earth, but he passed on those rights to his son. Virtually everything we know about the extended world comes from the work that Christopher Tolkien has done. If he thought that the notes on the artwork were a noteworthy contradiction then he could have made a comment about it. He did not. In other cases he does. Quote:
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If Aragorn at 6'6 is much shorter than the average Numenoreans of old then how tall were the Numenoreans of old? In every text no matter how late, the decline in stature is noted. Nor have you answered that if the minimum height was 6'6 for the Eldar then what would the average height be? EDIT Mentioned it briefly, but Tolkien was well aware of the English kings. It was not unusual for one of the Plantagenet descendants to be nearly a foot taller than the average man and virtually a foot taller than the average peasant. Charlemagne himself was a giant at close to 6'3. Edward I and II were both described as the tallest and strongest men in the real (considering their great height this was probably not just flattery). Elendil is simply a reflection of this. Last edited by cellurdur; 01-29-2014 at 08:28 AM. |
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01-29-2014, 09:34 AM | #38 | |||||||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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But no they do not 'need validation' from CJRT to hold equal standing with the rest of the same commentary from the creator of Middle-earth. And The Children of Hurin is arguably 'not canon' as it is clearly the work of Christopher Tolkien not JRRT. Where does CJRT claim The Children of Hurin is canon? Is everything in Vinyar Tengwar or Parma Eldalamberon 'lesser' material somehow, if CJRT merely gave certain texts to the Linguistic Team to publish and comment on? Quote:
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01-29-2014, 10:02 AM | #39 | |||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Without context we have no indication of things he said prior. I really don't see how this can be viewed as a contradiction with such little evidence. Quote:
If Christopher published only part of that quote he probably had full access to the other passages he did not publish and was found in the Hammond book. Quote:
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EDIT I just looked at the full quote from the artwork again. Now I have seen it in full context, there is no way that it means Elendil was just 7ft tall. 'the Númenóreans before the Downfall were a people of great stature and strength, the Kings of Men; their full grown men were commonly seven feet tall, especially in the royal and noble houses. In the North where men of other kinds were fewer and their race remained purer this stature remained more frequent, though in both Arnor and Gondor apart from mixture of race the Númenóreans showed a dwindling of height and of longevity in Middle-earth that became more marked as the Third Age passed. Aragorn, direct descendant of Elendil and his son Isildur, both of whom had been seven feet tall, must nonetheless have been a very tall man..., probably at least 6 ft. 6; and Boromir, of high Númenórean lineage, not much shorter, (say 6 ft. 4).' We now have more context and we can see Elendil the TALL, must be a lot more than 7ft. Tolkien tells us that it was common for men to be seven fee tall and especially in the royal houses. Now we are supposed to believe that a man nicknamed the TALL was the 'common height.' This is why context is so important. Elendil has to be significantly above 7ft for his nickname to make any sense. Last edited by cellurdur; 01-29-2014 at 10:08 AM. |
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01-29-2014, 10:29 AM | #40 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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If there is more context about Eldarin height in these same papers, description that alters or helps with an interpretation of the text presented, I would expect it to be included as well. H&S are noted Tolkien scholars and you can find their thanks to Christopher Tolkien and other folk in the Preface to their Companion to The Lord of the Rings. In any case, using what we have, I interpret things differently than you do. The rest is just going in circles now. Last edited by Galin; 01-29-2014 at 02:30 PM. |
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