The Fates of Elros' and Elronds' Heirs

[Belegorn Calenmir]

At the end of the First Age, after the Great Battle in which Morgoth was overthrown and thrust through the Doors of Night into the Void, the Valar, under the instruction of Illuvatar, proposed to the children of Earendil and Elwing choices: Whether to belong to the Race of the Eldar (Elves) or the Race of the Edain (Men).

Elrond chose to become like an Elf, being granted the Eldarin lifespan and a greater capacity for learning and power than a mortal man. He was hugely instrumental in the Second and Third Ages (first as a herald and advisor to Gil-Galad and then as a benefactor of the ravaged Dunadan remnant).

Elros became a Man, possibly the first Dunadan ever, and was granted a lifespan easily five times that of "normal" men. He was given the Isle of Numenor, upon which he, with the last of the Houses of the Edain, formed the Kingdom of Numenor.

Elrond's children were given the choice of which Race to belong to as well. Arwen, who fell in love with a mortal, though long-lived, Dunadan (Aragorn), chose mortality, as well as her brothers, Elrohir and Elladan, who fought alongside the Dunadan Rangers and were practically Rangers themselves.

But what about Elros' children?

Why is there no mention of whether or not Vardamir, son of Elros, was given the choice? Does that not seem a little unfair or harsh to them? Why were Elrond's children given the choice?

There are a few arguments that I have thought of, but they are very non-conclusive:

1. Elros probably married a woman from the Edain, so his children were most likely too human to be granted Eldarin life.
-PROBLEM: Elrond married a full-blooded Elf, the daughter of Celeborn and Galadriel. Thus, it would seem, Elrond's children would be too Elvish to be able to choose the Gift of Men (mortality).

2. Elros' children were born and raised in Numenor, a human realm, without Elves, so they would not be so interested in becoming an Elf; Elrond's children were deeply involved with the Dunadan and therefore grew attachments to that Race enough to decide to become mortal with them.
-PROBLEM: If this was true, then Elrond's children, who had been alive for thousands of years, would have likely chosen to become mortal long before the end of the Third Age, thus dying before LOTR's time. And Arwen had been living with her grandmother much of the time, only meeting Aragorn once before considering giving up her Elvish inheritance.
-PROBLEM 2: Until the time of Ar-Adunakhor, the Numenoreans frequently hosted Elves and were considered Elf-Friends. The Numenoreans were deeply entrenched in Elvish culture, practically saturated with it. Lack of Elvish influence does not work for this argument.


3. Idril and Luthien were Elves and could choose mortality, so of course Elrond's children could. In fact, practically any Elf could choose mortality and become human.
-PROBLEM: WRONG! Only Luthien became mortal, and she did not become human. She died after Beren did after he was mauled by a werewolf, of a broken heart as Elves could do. Mandos, under the permission of Illuvatar, granted the two lovers second life, both mortal. Luthien did not become human, merely mortal. And Idril likely never made the choice; she and Tuor sailed to the Undying Lands and their fate is unknown.

I am not sure if there is a right or wrong answer for this one. The main question is:
WHY DO ELROND'S CHILDREN GET TO CHOOSE WHICH RACE TO BELONG TO AND ELROS' DO NOT? I am not talking about later generations for Elros' Line, only his son Vardamir.

Any thoughts?

[Belegorn]

The reason would be that Elros was a Man even though he was of Elvish descent. Since Elrond chose to be of the First-born his children in like manner were given the choice to choose their fates. Keep in mind why this choice is granted to them:

"In them alone the line of the heroic chieftains of the Edain in the First Age was preserved; and after the fall of Gil-galad the lineage of the High-elven Kings was also in Middle-earth only represented by their descendants." [Appendix A: Return of the King]

In Númenor this lack of choice was begrudged by the descendants of Elros because they began to not want their fate, the Doom of Men.

However, it is said that a Númenorean of Dol Amroth, Imrazôr, wedded an Elf, but I do not think their child was given any such choice, and if he were, he chose to be human. So I'd think the Valar only gave this choice to Elros and Elrond, their parents, and Elrond's descendants.

[Alfirin]

That argument doesn't really make sense. You might as well say the choice should not have come to Elrond's children on the ground that he chose to be an elf. And I don't recall anyone telling Elros that his choice would affect his children, but his brother's would not. If they had, I'm not so sure he would have chosen as he did (it's one thing to accept mortality for yourself, but if you found out that that choice would also fall on your descendants whether they wanted it or not is another matter. Especially if you had no way of being sure if your kids were going to get the unusually extended lifespan you were, for all you knew, you were condemning your kids to die at and age that, to someone of Elvish upbringing would be barely out of puberty.
I'm almost tempted to see Tolkein's Catholicism peeking through here. The view that death is the supreme gift and that being granted immortality in this flawed and marred world would be a curse, since it would keep one from the better world beyond. It almost seems as if the valar are saying "Elros made the "right" choice, so his children don't need to make the choice again. Elrond made the "wrong" one, so we have to give his descendants the option of making the "right" one.)

[Galin]

Maybe the reason is based on a line in the Silmarillion, a line that was not taken up into the constructed version however [meaning Christopher Tolkien's version published in 1977].

'Then Manwe gave judgement and he said: 'To Earendel I remit the ban (...) Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: To Earendel and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged."

JRRT, The Lost Road, Quenta Silmarillion

Why to their sons in the first place? My idea is that if this is true [at least it was when it was written], then mortality would seem to be the default status for the Half-elven, or the natural order of Eru; and this would include that folk with mortal blood cannot be denied a mortal death. And if so Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir would be automatically mortal, having still a measure of mortal blood -- but then they would be, in potential, automatically sundered from Elrond [an 'immortal chooser'] and Celebrian [a natural immortal], even after death.

Elros' children are in a sense, denied immortality while having a measure of immortal blood, but in another sense they simply return to Eru's plan concerning the Half-elven. They are not denied death, nor are automatically sundered from the parent who chose mortality [who would likely wed another mortal I think]

Elrond's children, if automatically 'immortal' but still having mortal blood, would be automatically denied a mortal death -- and if automatically mortal, would be automatically sundered from their parents. It was Earendil and Elwing that were given special dispensation, but again, why add Elros and Elrond? Well, we can say that they too would be automatically mortal without the same 'other doom' being granted to them.

To me, I think the potential choice of immortality must include an extension to the children, otherwise [again, at least in light of the above text], having mortal blood, they will have no choice but to die while their parent[s] live[s] on until the end of the World and so on...

... of course even if all this holds up, one might then ask why it should be [in my opinion] the 'natural order of things' that anyone with mortal blood, in any measure, is automatically mortal, if no special doom is granted to them.

I don't know ...

... but that's what I think it says in the Silmarillion of the later 1930s anyway.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I'm almost tempted to see Tolkein's Catholicism peeking through here. The view that death is the supreme gift and that being granted immortality in this flawed and marred world would be a curse, since it would keep one from the better world beyond.

Hmm, but yet the Elves can and will ultimately die with the End of the World.

The Quendi are not denied death [not that you said otherwise], but given a very different kind of life compared to 'brief' mortals.

[Belegorn Calenmir]

Back to the reply that Arwen, Elrohir and Elladan would be mortal because of their mortal blood infused with Elvish blood, the children of Elrond were given a choice, it seems. When Elrond confronted Aragorn in the books about his interest in Arwen, after he told Aragorn that he would not be worthy enough to win Arwen unless he was the King of the North and South Kingdoms reunited, Aragorn, using a bit of foresight, warned Elrond that a day was coming soon when his children (specifically Arwen) would have to make their choice as to which kindred they would belong to, to remain in Middle-earth among Men or to go into the West with the Elves.

[Mithalwen]

I agree with Galin. The valar felt the Gift of men from Eru could not be withheld to those entitled. It isn't simply a matter of death since as has been pointed out that Elves are only immortal in the sense that their life is bound with the existence of Arda. It is the possibility of passing beyond the circles of the world and having more scope to decide one's own fate as well.

It seems to me that mortality was the "default setting" for half elven by blood. Mithrellas's children did not get the choice and she surely abandoned her family to avoid the pain of seeing her children age and die. Earendil and Elwing clearly developed as humans not elves since they married in their early twenties and had children at an age decades before Elves would be physically mature and of age to marry. Elronds children are of course more than half Elven and their development may have been more on an elvish timescale as the children of two immortals (the spacing between their births suggest this). The grace of choice extended to them must have been a very mixed blessing and may well explain why Elrond delayed marriage long after meeting and falling in love with Celebrian. Embarking on parenthood knowing that you may be separated eternally from your children must have been appalling and makes her suffering all the more poignant I think.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Galin

Hmm, but yet the Elves can and will ultimately die with the End of the World.

The Quendi are not denied death [not that you said otherwise], but given a very different kind of life compared to 'brief' mortals.

That's true, I said the "gift" thing a little inaccurately. The "gift" is the chance to enter the afterlife. Death is a "gift" only in that it allows a person to get there (in much the same way that some theologies regard pain and suffering as divine gifts since they allow a soul to be honed and forged to be worthy of the afterlife.) Or that Greek myth about the old woman who treats a god in disguise so well he says he will give her whatever she wishes. When she replies she herself needs nothing but begs the god to give the greatest blessing possible to her children the god agrees and both her children immediately drop dead.

As for the sundering thing, that could explain something else, why Arwen ISN'T at the Grey Havens. She can't go on the boat but you'd think she'd want to be there to say goodbye (it is her father after all). It seems like there may be an even deeper sundering involved in the choice, once an Halfelven chooses mortality, it's as if they are now considered already DEAD by the elves, as if it is forbidden for them to thereafter even ASSOCIATE (as far as I know, there is no record of Elrond taking trips to Numernor to visit his brother. Or Arwen getting visits by her brother. Maybe it's the same thing as Mitherellas, the immortal can't bear seeing their kin die, and the mortal can't bear seeing their kin live.

[Belegorn]

Perhaps. Still, there are many incidents, especially during the Exile of the Dúnedain of Anor, that Elrond has taken care of the Heirs of Elendil who were his kin.

"without the goodwill of Master Elrond the Heirs of Isildur will soon come to an end." - Gilraen

There was one instance with a lady of the Edain named Andreth in the First Age who had a love who was an Elf, but they never got together because of her mortality.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Perhaps. Still, there are many incidents, especially during the Exile of the Dúnedain of Anor, that Elrond has taken care of the Heirs of Elendil who were his kin.

"without the goodwill of Master Elrond the Heirs of Isildur will soon come to an end." - Gilraen

There was one instance with a lady of the Edain named Andreth in the First Age who had a love who was an Elf, but they never got together because of her mortality.

A Valid point, though, given the distance, it's a little hard to determine if the reason Elrond helped was because they were his relatives, or just he though it important for the heirs to keep going. After all after a while the Heirs were something like his great great great to many degrees nephews. To a man, that would really probably not still count as "kin". Though I suppose that an immortal, who had known all the generations that had come before personally, might have a different view as to how close someone had to be to still be considered "family". Certainly the fact that Aragorn and Arwen are first cousins many times removed was never cited as being a problem (I am assuming that ME has the same moral issues with inbreeding as we do. Given the way some early European cultures looked at it, they might not).

[Belegorn Calenmir]

Alfrin, Middle-earth does have similar relational laws as we do. Ar-Pharazon married his cousin, which was considered incestuous to the Numenoreans (noted, in some places it is not considered incestuous to marry one's cousin, but if they thought that that was immoral, then there seems to have been a certain amount of taboo connected to marrying relatives.

Sorry, had to indulge the bunny-trail.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Belegorn Calenmir

Alfrin, Middle-earth does have similar relational laws as we do. Ar-Pharazon married his cousin, which was considered incestuous to the Numenoreans (noted, in some places it is not considered incestuous to marry one's cousin, but if they thought that that was immoral, then there seems to have been a certain amount of taboo connected to marrying relatives.

Sorry, had to indulge the bunny-trail.

I never said they did, just that I didn't KNOW if they did. As you said there are places and times where marrying your first cousin was considered OK especially for those of Royal/Noble blood) (Heck from what I understand, marrying your brother/sister was CUSTOMARY for Ancient Egyptian Royalty.) Whatever the case, nothing was seen immoral by Elrond or anyone else in Aragorn and Arwen's union, all those "removeds" were enough to make it OK by Numenorian standards (presumably since the Dunedain descend from "Classical" Numenor their mores are similar.