Luthien weilding Vilya

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Let's suspend our beliefs for a bit of what we know as canon in the Tolkien universe and engage a hypothetical situation.

Let's suppose a couple of things:

• Suppose that Sauron never made the One (and never got involved with any ring-making business at all), but yet the Exiles of the First Age still figured out how to forge the Three (with the exact properties and potency as the ones made in the Second Age [Arrested time, enhanced natural powers of their bearers, unique elemental magic associated with each of the Three]).

• Suppose that these were made and completed after the ruin of Doriath, when its Maian Queen deserted it for invasion.

• Suppose that Luthien retained her Elvish life and Beren was also granted an Elvish lifespan after the resurrection of the two (in the manner of Earindil); and Finrod is resurrected and sent back along with them

• Suppose Vilya was sent to Luthien, Narya to Finrod, and Nenya to Galadriel

With these three mighty guardians wielding the Three, can we not suppose then that their kingdoms can survive... no even resist Sauron's onslaught of his dark magic ('cause Morgoth has already diminished in his native might), or an attack led by Glaurung and the Balrogs? Or at least the most guaranteed of the three would be Luthien, who is half Maia--who wields the mightiest ring, Vilya--reviving the ruined Menegroth? Would those kingdoms in the First Age fare better if said guardians (Luthien, Galadriel, and Finrod) had employed the Three, even in Morgoth's reign? Remember the native might of the bearers as well as their elven-rings when considering their survivability.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Remember the native might of the bearers as well as their elven-rings when considering their survivability.

I think the native might of the Rings' makers is the main consideration. Rings of Power are limited by what is available to be put inside by those who fashion them. Would any of the Noldor have had more innate power than Sauron?

Also, remember that both Elrond (a descendant of Lúthien) and Galadriel (a Valinor-born Noldo) did not think it feasible for them to resist Sauron without him possessing the One. I think your scenario is in a similar vein.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think the native might of the Rings' makers is the main consideration. Rings of Power are limited by what is available to be put inside by those who fashion them. Would any of the Noldor have had more innate power than Sauron?

Also, remember that both Elrond (a descendant of Lúthien) and Galadriel (a Valinor-born Noldo) did not think it feasible for them to resist Sauron without him possessing the One. I think your scenario is in a similar vein.

You're right. But the hypothetical scenario calls for Sauron never having participated or created his own Ring, so while he is innately mightier than those Elven smiths (Calequendi), he does not get any power enhancements like those who bear the Three.

I believe it was only Elrond who thought it would be futile to resist even a ringless Sauron.

Remember Galadriel saying to Frodo that if her wishes had any avail, the One shouldn't have been created or remained forever lost. The underscored part is telling, knowing Sauron's strength. This implies that she can manage against Sauron so long as Nenya isn't shorn of its powers and the One remained inoperable/incapacitated state. In the ROTK appendix, it states that Lorien would not fall unless Sauron would come there himself (we can assume the kingdom would fall, but that doesn't automatically mean that Galadriel would meet a similar fate to Finrod in this contest [if it came to a face-face fight with Sauron] as she has Nenya and is innately greater than her brother). So we can imagine that even if the entire forces of Mordor (instead of Minas Tirith being attacked) and Dol Guldur were poured forth on Lothlorien, without Sauron in the presence of his armies, these combined, full attacks would still be repelled indefinitely because of the power of Galadriel. That's pretty awesome, if you ask me. And how well does she stack up against the other two hypothetical bearers in this scenarario:

• Born in Valinor under the hollowed light of the Two Trees (Calequendi).

• The equal (and later greater) of Feanor--who is the most gifted Elda by Eru--even at the height of Elves' glory in Valinor.

Most importantly, the personal tutelage and apprenticeship under Melian, a Maia of great power and wisdom. I feel this element is the one important factor that allows her to surpass her uncle's stature. Melian taking her under wing saw Galadriel's innat potential. Who, other than Melian's own daughter, would qualify for such privilege? None.

Then you have Finrod who actually tasted a contest between Sauron, and though he was able to hold out for a while, he lost. But in this new scenario:

• He is resurrected, so he reaches Glorfindel status, having an enhanced spiritual strength, coming very close to the Maiar (and remember Galadriel is still said to be the greatest even with a resurrected Glorfindel in account regardless of Nenya). So he is sent back, purified and made stronger than the fea and hroa that perished previously.

• He is Calequendi.

• He is skilled in songs of power (spells?) and wiser than any of his cousins (sons of Feanor and sons of Fingolfin).

I'd say he'd be extremely formidable now, and even more so with Narya on his finger. I don't think he'd suffer the same fate with Sauron where it to happen again, with all is enhancements.

And finally Luthien. In this scenario she is resurrected and retains inherent grace and immortality:

• Has half the strength of Melian's ainur powers as her daughter. We all know Melian is no low-level maia. She is up there with Sauron and Eonwe. So having just 1/2 of Melian can still mean a very powerful heritage.

• We can safely assume that she is also a pupil of Melian, being her daughter and having her divine genes.

• With Vilya in her keeping, she'd be very powerful and would not tire after executing grand shows of power (e.g., the slumbering dance at Angband). Unlike the Istari, she isn't placed in a restrictive body to veil her mairin powers. Her body is real and that of an elf, so she'd have full liberties expressing what she can do.

So taking all this into account, do the Eldar not have a greater chance of survival (even in the 1st age) with all the magical trinkets and innately powerful and wise guardians? Take also the fact that the Three can arrest decay and weariness (which has a far-reaching healing and preserving effect compared to the Seven and Nine, that only enhanced their bearers and not their surrounding environment), so the curse of Mandos on weariness has no effect on wherever kingdom these rings reside.

[Belegorn]

1- I think that there would still need to be a most skilled craftsman and I believe Feanor's grandson who forged these Rings, with the aid of Sauron, was closest to his grandfather in skill of hand. I can see some sort of venture to stop the fading being looked into since they were not in undying lands which was more their abode than the lands of Middle-earth.

2- I would think that Beren would probably be granted a fate like the Elves then and would have to come back as an Elf. If Finrod was sent back he would be mightier than he was when he was felled by Sauron in battle.

3- I like Felagund with Narya since he seems to be an Elf of the other people.

4- Luthien might wield the strongest Ring, but Galadriel would still be the mightiest Elf. Even when Elrond bore it she was still the greatest Elf in Middle-earth. Albiet, so long as Feanor is not around she is the top Elf. However, it is clear that no power save Sauron's could penetrate Galadriel's defenses in the 3rd Age. I think therefore that even in the 1st Age with these Rings of Power Sauron could breach the realms where the Rings were held in possession. Remember, Sauron may have been a servant but he was still a mighty Maia. It is clear that Elves can match the Maia as we have seen with the feats of the Noldor in the 1st Age. Obviously aside from Galadriel the new bearers are stronger than Elrond, however in the 3rd Age Gandalf wielded a Ring and he would clearly be comparable to any of them. Personally I'm not sure I can see Luthien ruling any realm. She does not seem the type to want to run a principality.

What of the sons of Feanor, how would they feel about these things? I don't know. Would the curse of Mandos work its way into this new discovery? I believe that a diminished Melkor is still stronger than most in Middle-earth.

Also unlike the One these Rings were made for preservation. So they may have some use in the defense of one's realm they are not meant to be tools of dominion. That's not to say that they cannot be used to aid in war as Gandalf could inspire hearts and light a fire under his men with his Ring.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

1- I think that there would still need to be a most skilled craftsman and I believe Feanor's grandson who forged these Rings, with the aid of Sauron, was closest to his grandfather in skill of hand. I can see some sort of venture to stop the fading being looked into since they were not in undying lands which was more their abode than the lands of Middle-earth.

There was another elven craftsman of great skill who dwelt in Gondolin who made the first Elessar (depending on which version you subscribe to) and was considered greater than Celebrimbor, maker of the Three.

2- I would think that Beren would probably be granted a fate like the Elves then and would have to come back as an Elf. If Finrod was sent back he would be mightier than he was when he was felled by Sauron in battle.

I agree. Take the case of the resurrected Glorfindel, whose spiritual strength now rivaled close to the maiar.

3- I like Felagund with Narya since he seems to be an Elf of the other people.

I think Narya best suites him because Finrod was very wise (him and Galadriel out of all Finarfin's children) and had the wisdom to lead and guide even the men, whom he taught at their first awakening. Finrod also showed propensity in songs of power (magic?) and was able to stand toe-to-toe, albeit briefly, with Sauron. I do not recall any other male Calaquendi showing such spiritual prowess other than skill of swords.

4- Luthien might wield the strongest Ring, but Galadriel would still be the mightiest Elf. Even when Elrond bore it she was still the greatest Elf in Middle-earth. Albiet, so long as Feanor is not around she is the top Elf.

I do not know exactly how far down Feanor and Galadriel were from Luthien's level (I'd estimate that in spiritual stature, both G & F were at 80% while Luthien at 100% in the beginning. And then after Melian's training of Galadriel, she would jump to 90%, and upon cultivating her power throughout the ages, she would reach 95% innate spiritual strength, and 100% while wearing Nenya). Luthien had the divine heritage of her mother, and her father, Thingol, was considered a Calaquendi; so those two combinations are pretty potent. But then you have exceptionally gifted elves like Feanor and Galadriel who are both equally in the utmost echelon even among the Calaquendi of Valinor at the height of their glory. So while I would say Luthien was inherently spiritually (and magically) stronger than both Feanor and Galadriel (though I doubt not by much, especially the latter), I would not rank any other elf (even the likes of Dior, Earendil, Elrond, or Fingolfin) above or equal to Feanor or Galadriel. These two were top dogs, and with the deaths of Luthien & Feanor... well only Galadriel now.

However, it is clear that no power save Sauron's could penetrate Galadriel's defenses in the 3rd Age.

True... which means the Balrog, Saruman, Smaug, Witch-King, etc. cannot penetrate or destroy Lothlorien, as they are not as strong as Sauron.

I think therefore that even in the 1st Age with these Rings of Power Sauron could breach the realms where the Rings were held in possession. Remember, Sauron may have been a servant but he was still a mighty Maia. It is clear that Elves can match the Maia as we have seen with the feats of the Noldor in the 1st Age.

While this is true, the exception, I believe, is Luthien with her maiarin blood with Vilya might be able to withstand a ringless Sauron indefinitely. Remember her mother Melian was among the top-tier maiar... not like low-level ones like Radagast.

Obviously aside from Galadriel the new bearers are stronger than Elrond, however in the 3rd Age Gandalf wielded a Ring and he would clearly be comparable to any of them.

I think Elrond is a great elf, and I would probably rate him at the level of Turgon or Fingon, considering his heritage (maia blood, noldor, telerin, and vanyarin heritage). But with Gandalf, although he is a maia, the body that he inhabited retricted much of his powers; his body was also quick to tire like that of an old man. But Luthien, though half maia, has the body and vitality of the eldar.

What of the sons of Feanor, how would they feel about these things?

As haughty as ever, I believe they would wage war against the guardians of the Three and would want to wield the rings themselves.

Also unlike the One these Rings were made for preservation. So they may have some use in the defense of one's realm they are not meant to be tools of dominion. That's not to say that they cannot be used to aid in war as Gandalf could inspire hearts and light a fire under his men with his Ring.

Preservation was the baseline power of the Rings (and these preservation powers were far more pronounced in the Three, compared to the Seven and Nine); but it was also said that the rings enhanced the natural powers of its possessors... thus approaching magic. And the Three had the greatest powers, hence why Sauron wants them. So yes, even the Three can be used for war, depending on the skills of their bearers.

[Zigûr]

To look at it in terms of the stature of their Enemies rather than the wielders themselves, I can't help but feel that no Elven-Ring would have made any realm in Beleriand impregnable to the Hosts of Morgoth. Morgoth may have been frustrated had he attacked a Ring-wielder in person, mind you, but I feel as if the Elves could not have resisted indefinitely dragons and Balrogs in any significant numbers.

Sauron could only have successfully assailed Lothlórien had he come there himself; but we know that in terms of power Sauron was, in a sense, the opposite of Morgoth: with both in a weakened state (Morgoth at the end of the First Age, Sauron at the end of the Third), Sauron was more powerful in person than indirectly (due to his power being largely invested in the Ring, which he lacked) while Morgoth was more powerful 'by proxy' than in person, which is to say that by that point his powerful armies and servants were more dangerous than he was as an individual, because his power was invested in the world as a whole and everything in it, and especially the most powerful of his forces. Sauron's power was concentrated, Morgoth's diffuse. I think that may have a part to play in understanding how an attack by Morgoth's armies might deal with an Elven Ring.

As an aside, it's interesting to note that in some early jotting by the Professor (as recounted in The Return of the Shadow, possibly?) he mused on an origin where the Rings were forged by Fëanor in Aman and were part of the stash of goodies Morgoth stole from Formenos - so this discussion is not an unprecedented notion!

[Belegorn]

Gorthaur, I do not recall Lúthien ever being mentioned as the prime Elf. I will cite several texts that seem to me to clearly say that Fëanor is above all others the foremost of all the Children of Iluvatar.

"Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind... of all the Children of Iluvatar" [Sil, p. 112]

"his likeness has never again appeared in Arda... Thus ended the mightiest of the Noldor" [p. 125]

"he was mighty in body and in all the skills of the body, and supreme among the Eldar in eagerness and strength and subtlety of mind" [Morgoth's Ring, p. 236]

"This child is the greatest in gifts that hath arisen or shall arise among the Eldar." [p. 240]

"Aulë nameth Fëanor the greatest of the Eldar, and in potency that is true." [p. 247]

He was skillful, cunning, and astute in mind, and his potency is not matched by any of the Eldar according to the Valar. It was mentioned that it was not known of what substance the Silmarils were made of. It would be interesting that this creation even baffled the Valar who had a hand in the building up of Arda.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

I think Narya best suites him because Finrod was very wise

In any case I do not think his possession of it would necessarily prevent Sauron or Morgoth's servants from overrunning a realm in which it was held.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

True... which means the Balrog, Saruman, Smaug, Witch-King, etc. cannot penetrate or destroy Lothlorien, as they are not as strong as Sauron.

I'm not sure if this is necessarily true. As Zigûr mentioned, Melkor poured his strength into his servants and he had powerful servants like the dragons, and the balrogs were Maiar like Sauron. I think these with their servants/soldiers could probably take out any of the Elven realms where the Rings were held.

I do agree with you about the Witch-King, for it is said that while he was searching for Gollum and the Shire, "the power of the White Ring [Nenya] he [Witch-king] would not defy, nor yet enter into Lórien." [Unfinished Tales, p. 354] Also in this same chapter Gandalf believed Sauron could overthrow Lórien and Rivendell, "And those places might have fallen, I think, if Sauron had thrown all his power against them first" [p. 345]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Luthien with her maiarin blood with Vilya might be able to withstand a ringless Sauron indefinitely

I'm not so sure about this. Huan the hound saved her from Sauron when they came to save Beren. Although she and he did take out his servants. Even a ringless Sauron in the 3rd Age was believed by Gandalf to be able to take out Elrond's and Galadriel's realms.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

But with Gandalf, although he is a maia, the body that he inhabited retricted much of his powers; his body was also quick to tire like that of an old man

True, but remember his battle with the Balrog. I do not think you will find in that battle that he held back and he was still taken out of commission for a while.

"There was none to see... what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire." [The Two Towers, p. 125]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

I believe they would wage war against the guardians of the Three and would want to wield the rings themselves

Perhaps, or this knowledge of ring-lore would be shared or even known by someone like Curufin, "who inherited most of his father's skill of hand" [Sil, p. 63]

Also read Zigûr's post because the approach between the two Lord's would be different. Sauron's power was mostly poured into the Ring which is why it could be his undoing if destroyed. Morgoth poured his strength into various things and therefore in his servants you had much to worry about. As far as I know, Melkor was more likely to avoid any physical confrontation anyway. After he disposed of Fingolfin he never left his chambers again until he was taken by force. Sauron did go out several times to meet his enemies and the one where he did the most damage was in his deception of Númenor and its downfall when he went there as a voluntary prisoner. In this case he used deception because he knew his servants, none of them, could stand up to the Númenóreans.

[Tar Elenion]

"These two kinsfolk [Feanor & Galadriel], the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever."14
Endnote 14:
"Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Luthien Tinuviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves."

Shibboleth of Feanor, PoME

[Belegorn]

Tar that is interesting. It appears to fly in the face of everything that has been attributed to Fëanor. Look at the first quote for instance. I would assume that Lúthien was one of the Children of Iluvatar. There is a contradiction there.

"Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind... of all the Children of Iluvatar" [Sil, p. 112]

There are instances where terms like these, greatest, mightiest, or fairest have been used for various characters. I'd ask if it's this one or that?

Contradiction aside, whether Luthien, or Galadriel, I would say that Sauron or some other great force of Melkor's could take down any realm in the F.A. held by different bearers of the Rings. The Elves are powerful and even the really top one's like Glorfindel, who is said to be nearly equal to the Maiar, could not stop them. If he is held to be so powerful, and Galadriel who is greater imo as per, "the mightiest and fairest of all the elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil, p. 370], could have her realm toppled by a Ringless Sauron if he chose to throw all of his strength at her, then any other Elven kingdom could be destroyed no matter what Elf held a Ring of Power.

[Galadriel55]

Luthien seemed to care very little about politics before Beren, and she only started caring about them when they interfered with her love interest. Would she really take up the burden of ruling/safeguarding Doriath? She seems quite content to live an isolated life with Beren. But if she lives to find out that Doriath is desperately in need of someone powerful to do that... hmmm... I suppose it's possible.

Saying that, though, I still think that Doriath and the other kingdoms would not hold against Morgoth. It's not even against Morgoth that they are holding, but against themselves (and once again the question comes up of how much the Curse of the Noldor is doing the evil and how much evil is done by men's decisions). The history might have looked different, Earendil might have been born to different parents several centuries later, or someone like Celegorm and Curufin might have gotten angry that they weren't chosen as the Ringbearers and the ruin of Doriath might have been even more absolute... who knows. The whole Silmarillion is about slow defeat, and even the victory at the end is not a true victory. It's the way it would be whatever would have happened.

[Tar Elenion]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Tar that is interesting. It appears to fly in the face of everything that has been attributed to Fëanor. Look at the first quote for instance. I would assume that Lúthien was one of the Children of Iluvatar. There is a contradiction there.

"Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind... of all the Children of Iluvatar" [Sil, p. 112]

Contradiction, perhaps. But JRRT is fond of using these superlatives, for various characters. However, in this instance it is a direct comparison, and I give it some weight.
As for your quote see this:
"Fëanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame. Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant. Finarfin was the fairest, and the most wise of heart", Sil. p. 60.
If Feanor was the mightiest in all parts of body, how could Fingolfin be stronger? Yet JRRT says Fingolfin was the strongest.

There are instances where terms like these, greatest, mightiest, or fairest have been used for various characters. I'd ask if it's this one or that?

Contradiction aside, whether Luthien, or Galadriel, I would say that Sauron or some other great force of Melkor's could take down any realm in the F.A. held by different bearers of the Rings. The Elves are powerful and even the really top one's like Glorfindel, who is said to be nearly equal to the Maiar, could not stop them. If he is held to be so powerful, and Galadriel who is greater imo as per, "the mightiest and fairest of all the elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil, p. 370], could have her realm toppled by a Ringless Sauron if he chose to throw all of his strength at her, then any other Elven kingdom could be destroyed no matter what Elf held a Ring of Power.

Interestingly, in Letter 245 JRRT writes:
"In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond." [Gandalf was dealt with previously, I tend to consider this more generally referring to the great among the Eldar of the time.]

Elrond (granted he is not an Elf) would be especially capable, I think due to his Maiarin heritage.

But personally, the best quest to ask is greatest at what? As mighty as Galadriel is, would she beat Elrond in a sword fight? Is Luthien going to be able to be able to out wrestle Ecthelion who grappled with Gothmog?
No.
Greatest in some of these may also have a moral/spiritual context as well.

[Belegorn]

True, the superlatives are there, in abundance. Like in your first quote some of the superlatives given to his brothers are applied to Fëanor as well, "Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour,... in strength" [Sil, p. 112]

Also applied to him are "beauty" and "understanding", whereas with Finarfin "fairest" and "wise of heart" are used. So one can wonder, how is Fingolfin said to be the strongest of the brothers when Fëanor is said to be "mightiest in all parts of body" as well as in "strength", and "endurance".

Your quote from the note reads to me in this way: "especially Elrond" refers to him, like Galadriel, with conceptions of being able to wield the One, not necessarily Elrond having a better aptitude of wielding it because if you read on you will see them in the same light, apart from Gandalf.

"In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, and they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position."

Later on in Letter 246 we are told how the 2 of them rejected the One anyways. It then follows about how in wielding the Ring they would go about taking on Sauron as differing from Gandalf, who alone "might be expected to master him".

Hear me out on this and tell me what you think. Galadriel is interesting because it is said of her in The History of Galadriel and Celeborn; "she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth." [p. 241] What is interesting to me is the part that says, "a match for both the loremasters..." and the inquiries about Galadriel's fighting prowess. It is said she was a staunch defender against her uncle's massacre at Alqualondë. This is basically the only text that I know of her mentioned in actual combat. Now, the text I quoted says she was a match for the loremasters. Interestingly enough a text reads that the loremasters of the Noldor:

"Nor were the 'loremasters' a separate guild of GENTLE SCRIBES, soon burned by the Orks of Angband upon pyres of books. They were mostly even as Fëanor, the greatest, kings, princes and warriors, such AS THE VALIANT CAPTAINS OF GONDOLIN" [The Peoples of Middle-earth, Note 23]

In other words they were not nerds or some such with no aptitude to fight. Rather than being gentle scribes they are "as the valiant captains of Gondolin". Therefore, perhaps it is safe to assume, that Galadriel too was such as these and would probably be able to best Elrond in a sword fight.

[Mithalwen]

I don't know I want to get deep into this because for me there are too many variants from the rings as written, in this hypothesis that one might as well say if it were a different book it would be a different book... however I so agree that you have to take the superlatives with a pinch of salt especially when referencing drafts and versions not published by JRRT. Some characters didn't appear til later. However regardless I think Luthien would have been useless aa a ringbearer because she is essrntially passive and only acts when motivated by the need to fulfil her own desire.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Contradiction aside, whether Luthien, or Galadriel, I would say that Sauron or some other great force of Melkor's could take down any realm in the F.A. held by different bearers of the Rings. The Elves are powerful and even the really top one's like Glorfindel, who is said to be nearly equal to the Maiar, could not stop them. If he is held to be so powerful, and Galadriel who is greater imo as per, "the mightiest and fairest of all the elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil, p. 370], could have her realm toppled by a Ringless Sauron if he chose to throw all of his strength at her, then any other Elven kingdom could be destroyed no matter what Elf held a Ring of Power.

I think this is the important point. Sauron could have defeated Galadriel and conquered Lothlórien without the Ring so long as he had attended to the matter in person - is it not safe to say that had he recovered the One Ring he could have dismissed or mastered the defences of Lórien and Rivendell without having to be physically present? Regardless, Morgoth's personal potency was diminished because it was invigorating his servants; at what cost could Lúthien with Vilya have withstood Gothmog and other Balrogs leading a massive army of dragons and Orcs, equivalent to, say, the army which attacked Gondolin?

With Gondolin in mind, however, perhaps it's not unreasonable to suppose that the quantities of his strength which would have to be wasted in such an assault could be quite considerable for Morgoth; how many Balrogs could he afford to lose, or Dragons for that matter? But as Elrond told Glóin, the Three were not made as weapons of war, and I'm unsure as to what extent their power would have availed the Eldar against Morgoth's military might, or what difference it would make to any assault. It would, perhaps, be easier to speculate had Morgoth ever launched such an attack on Doriath, because I see that as the closest parallel to the Elven realms in the Third Age defended by the Rings, but it's hard to say. I'm just not convinced that it would make a huge difference. As was said:

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

It's not even against Morgoth that they are holding, but against themselves (and once again the question comes up of how much the Curse of the Noldor is doing the evil and how much evil is done by men's decisions).

Which I think problematises how relevant devices like this would really be to the situation, which was in several key features entirely different to the conflicts of the later Ages.

[Pervinca Took]

I wouldn't call Luthien passive. I agree, though, that, highly heroic as her and Beren's deeds were, their motives were far less selfless than those of many others in The Silmarillion.

[Mithalwen]

She lets herself get shut in a tree.. I find it very hard to see a woman as powerful when she can't even manage daddy...a skill most girls pick up by five months...

[Pervinca Took]

Can't believe she really couldn't manage a twit like Thingol. I think she was just letting him think she couldn't get out of it, when all along she knew the opening spell.

I've always honoured Beren and Luthien's tale because I knew/read it was Tolkien's favourite - but it seems a little like the Romeo and Juliet tale of Middle-earth - and now in comfortable middle age, I find the latter a pair of rather selfish irritants. Beren and Luthien less so, but in the same semantic field. Then again, passionate young love (and how it blinds people to all else) is as true to real life as anything else in Tolkien's mythology. It has a rightful place there. I just admire other characters more (although as a younger person I probably felt differently).

[Mithalwen]

Having read the Carpenter biography and also the Carpenter Inklings book whick talks of the unhappiness at times of the Tolkiens marriage I have never thought of the story without thinking of poor Edith..being deified ain't all it is cracked up to be. And Beren and Luthien create such collateral damage in satifying their own wants. I always found Thingol and Melian's own love story far more impressive.

[Pervinca Took]

Arwen and Aragorn seem a lot maturer and more realistic, too. Also Arwen is someone I really feel for, even if she did rather imperiously scorn her husband's race as "wicked fools" until she learned what mortality was really like.

I suppose Beren and Luthien are more mythical - and more magically long ago than Arwen and Aragorn.

[Mithalwen]

Arwen to me is just a pawn of fate just Luthien reborn and not enough of a character in her own right to really care about. She reminds me of my sister's theory that very good looking people are often dull because they have never needed to develop personalities.

[Tar Elenion]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

True, the superlatives are there, in abundance. Like in your first quote some of the superlatives given to his brothers are applied to Fëanor as well, "Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour,... in strength" [Sil, p. 112]

Also applied to him are "beauty" and "understanding", whereas with Finarfin "fairest" and "wise of heart" are used. So one can wonder, how is Fingolfin said to be the strongest of the brothers when Fëanor is said to be "mightiest in all parts of body" as well as in "strength", and "endurance".

Exactly. To much stock can be put in the superlatives.
[/quote]
Your quote from the note reads to me in this way: "especially Elrond" refers to him, like Galadriel, with conceptions of being able to wield the One, not necessarily Elrond having a better aptitude of wielding it because if you read on you will see them in the same light, apart from Gandalf.[/quote]
I can't read it that way. The appearing to conceive is not in doubt. Hence the 'If so' necessarily refers to the 'aptitude', or ability to use it against Sauron.

As your following quote showed, however, it would have ended up being a deceit regardless of the wielder.

Hear me out on this and tell me what you think. Galadriel is interesting because it is said of her in The History of Galadriel and Celeborn; "she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth." [p. 241] What is interesting to me is the part that says, "a match for both the loremasters..." and the inquiries about Galadriel's fighting prowess. It is said she was a staunch defender against her uncle's massacre at Alqualondë. This is basically the only text that I know of her mentioned in actual combat. Now, the text I quoted says she was a match for the loremasters. Interestingly enough a text reads that the loremasters of the Noldor:

"Nor were the 'loremasters' a separate guild of GENTLE SCRIBES, soon burned by the Orks of Angband upon pyres of books. They were mostly even as Fëanor, the greatest, kings, princes and warriors, such AS THE VALIANT CAPTAINS OF GONDOLIN" [The Peoples of Middle-earth, Note 23]

In other words they were not nerds or some such with no aptitude to fight. Rather than being gentle scribes they are "as the valiant captains of Gondolin". Therefore, perhaps it is safe to assume, that Galadriel too was such as these and would probably be able to best Elrond in a sword fight.

My thoughts in short are: 'Athlete' does not necessarily equal warrior, 'mostly' does not equal all, Elven-women, as Galadriel did here, would fight fiercely in defense of home and kindred, this does not necessarily mean they were soldiers. This is the only circumstance we have of Galadriel engaging in physical battle (see for example, Celeborn led the army to Dol Guldur, Galadriel (much like Luthien at Minas Tirith) just utilized her power to throw down the walls, after the fighting was done), whereas Elrond seems to have participated in the War of Wrath, and fought through battles and sieges in the Second (and possibly Third) Age. So Galadriel besting Elrond in physical combat would be dubious at best (much less a Fingolfin or Fingon or Maedhros).

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

She lets herself get shut in a tree.. I find it very hard to see a woman as powerful when she can't even manage daddy...a skill most girls pick up by five months...

True. You said the same thing I said about Lúthien in an earlier post. I cannot see her having charge of any state. Being effeminate in all honesty is not a good quality in a monarch as we have seen with Alexander of Rome. He let his mother basically control him and the army murdered him.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Tar Elenion

My thoughts in short are: 'Athlete' does not necessarily equal warrior, 'mostly' does not equal all, Elven-women, as Galadriel did here, would fight fiercely in defense of home and kindred, this does not necessarily mean they were soldiers. This is the only circumstance we have of Galadriel engaging in physical battle (see for example, Celeborn led the army to Dol Guldur, Galadriel (much like Luthien at Minas Tirith) just utilized her power to throw down the walls, after the fighting was done), whereas Elrond seems to have participated in the War of Wrath, and fought through battles and sieges in the Second (and possibly Third) Age. So Galadriel besting Elrond in physical combat would be dubious at best (much less a Fingolfin or Fingon or Maedhros).

Certainly "athlete" does not mean warrior. Many athletes are not warriors. Some may become warriors, or vice-versa, or be both. My point, however, was not Galadriel's comparisons to others as an athlete, but her comparison to the loremasters. The loremasters are pointed out as being, not "gentle scribes", but "as the valiant captains of Gondolin". They were warriors. This is what I meant which is why I quoted the texts for you. The one where she is compared not only to the athletes, but also to the loremasters, "a match for BOTH the loremasters AND athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth" and the other text describing the loremasters not as "gentle scribes" but as warriors. If this is the case, again I ask you, is it safe to assume that Galadriel was not only a great athlete, but also an excellent warrior.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

With Gondolin in mind, however, perhaps it's not unreasonable to suppose that the quantities of his strength which would have to be wasted in such an assault could be quite considerable for Morgoth; how many Balrogs could he afford to lose, or Dragons for that matter?

Melkor's armies have taken hits before. The one he sent out to take out Doriath was annihilated by Fëanor and his people. After Gondolin he had huge armies still to unleash against the powers that finally overthrew him. He seemed to be always updating his weaponry and building up his resources. He had those metal machines against Gondolin, then he held back the flying dragons and unleashed them against the powers. I think Melkor always had enough resources for his armies and such losses could be replaced. I suppose it might be a bit harder if there were 3 realms under the protection of the Three Rings. In the end, it would just be a slower death for the Elves.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

True. You said the same thing I said about Lúthien in an earlier post. I cannot see her having charge of any state. Being effeminate in all honesty is not a good quality in a monarch as we have seen with Alexander of Rome. He let his mother basically control him and the army murdered him.

I wouldn't say that to Galadriel who clearly wasn't called Nerwen for nothing and Idril has leadership qualities. However there are issues for female rulers and they do tend to have to compromise their femininity unless the have the foil of a supportive consort.

However while Galadriel had the potential to be a warrior I dont think her defence of kin at Alqualonde is enough to say she was..it wasn't something she trained for as Elrond would have been. Now I am sure Galadriel as one of the old Noldor of Valinor might have had greater innate power but with weapons you have to rate Elrond, scionof Fingolfin, Turgon, Tuor and Earendil..father of Elladan and Elrohir..ok they might takecafter grannie! Herald of Gilgalad, who according to one accounts actually wrestled Sauron, leader of the task force to Ost in Edhel. Once Glorfindel had returned he may have abstained from combat for the sake of his healing but I bet if he had to...

[Tar Elenion]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Certainly "athlete" does not mean warrior. Many athletes are not warriors. Some may become warriors, or vice-versa, or be both. My point, however, was not Galadriel's comparisons to others as an athlete, but her comparison to the loremasters. The loremasters are pointed out as being, not "gentle scribes", but "as the valiant captains of Gondolin". They were warriors. This is what I meant which is why I quoted the texts for you. The one where she is compared not only to the athletes, but also to the loremasters, "a match for BOTH the loremasters AND athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth" and the other text describing the loremasters not as "gentle scribes" but as warriors. If this is the case, again I ask you, is it safe to assume that Galadriel was not only a great athlete, but also an excellent warrior.

I think I addressed that when I said mostly does not equal all. But yes, I think it is safe to assume that Galadriel was not a warrior. I think it quite safe to assume that in purely physical combat, Galadriel would not have been a match for Elrond, or Fingolfin or Fingon or Celeborn (or Aragorn or Legolas or Gimli). Depending on what weapons Aredhel regularly used in the hunt, I would presume Aredhel as having a better ability in physical combat.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Tar Elenion

I think I addressed that when I said mostly does not equal all. But yes, I think it is safe to assume that Galadriel was not a warrior. I think it quite safe to assume that in purely physical combat, Galadriel would not have been a match for Elrond, or Fingolfin or Fingon or Celeborn (or Aragorn or Legolas or Gimli). Depending on what weapons Aredhel regularly used in the hunt, I would presume Aredhel as having a better ability in physical combat.

Oh I think she was a match for Celeborn And I think ahe could cope qith Gimli and Legolas..on a more serious note.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Tar Elenion

I think I addressed that when I said mostly does not equal all.

Thanks for the replies. I was just thinking that since Tolkien described Galadriel being "of Amazonian disposition" [Letter #348] and the Amazons were warrior women, that her association with the loremasters who were said to be warriors, and her participation in the battle at Alqualondë were also pointing to her being a warrior. I therefore disagree with your assertion that she would not be a match for others in physical combat.

"Even after the MERCILESS assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Fëanor in defense of her mother's kin, she did not turn back." [HoG&C, p. 242]

"In Fëanor's revolt that followed the Darkening of Valinor Galadriel had no part: indeed she with Celeborn fought heroically in defense of Alqualondë against the assault of the Noldor" [p. 243]

It is said that, "swords were drawn, and a bitter fight was fought upon the ships" at that battle in which, "many were slain upon either side" [Annals of Aman, p. 116] Further a note says, "Finrod and Galadriel (whose husband was of the Teleri) fought against Fëanor in defense of Alqualondë." [p. 128]

In my opinion I'd assume that Galadriel among other things was also a warrior capable of wielding weapons of war and defending herself/others. She had an Amazonian disposition, and was also compared to the loremasters who are warriors, and fought in a battle in which many had died wielding weapons of war or drowned in the sea.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

it wasn't something she trained for as Elrond would have been.

Maybe or maybe not. She could certainly have been trained and I think she was schooled to some degree as a warrior. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "as Elrond would have been".

[Mithalwen]

Galadriel was born into the peace of Aman with no need of learning weaponcraft and itvwas only when Melkor stirred up the diatrust and rivalry between the noldorin princes that they started making them so at the point of the kinslaying none of the noldor had real battle experience or training and thecteleri only had light bows. So Galadriel may well have fought bravely and used her native strength but I doubt she would have been trained..who would have had the skill to pass on. Elrond born into was wouldchave been trained in warcraft from an early age and would have fought in the War of Wrath and been experienced enough to have command of the force sent to Eregion and to be second only to Gilgalad and arguably Cirdan during the last alliance. Now whilee Galadriel had thecsame level of experience as her cousins and brothers at alqualonde they fought in the battles of middle earth while she simly did not. So Galadriel was very useful in a pinch but not a warrior in the way they became.

[Belegorn]

Okay that makes sense. Apparently she was not a warrior at all and had no need to be. I was reading into it. That's my fault.

[Mithalwen]

Don't worry about it..it was more interesting to me than the original topic and I hadn't noticed that loremaater reference before so to find that the Noldor were renaissance princes was fascinating. Anything that provokes reexamination of the texts and brings new insight is worthwhile.