Eowyn Vs Arwen

[arelendil]

i have a question what if aragorn had gone after eowyn instead of Arwen! did he love them both or was it just he fancied eowyn but chose arwen instead! how would the story change if he did go off with Eowyn?

[littlemanpoet]

My feeling is that Aragorn's heart was already given to Arwen. The attraction was one way, Eowyn attracted to Aragorn. JRRT wrote that Aragorn saw her plight and pitied her, but that was it. If Aragorn had betrayed his betrothal to Arwen, I think he would have betrayed the entire cause of the Free Peoples and their budding relationship would have been swallowed up by Sauron's war machine.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Aragorn didn't pursue Eowyn for a number of reasons: Firstly and most importantly, he was very much in love with Arwen, whereas Eowyn was just someone he met, to whom he meant no harm (re-read the passage in which they meet: he's embarrassed and worried by the infatuation that he sees in her). Secondly, he was betrothed to Arwen, which was once a commitment every bit as binding as marriage (in the Middle Ages, the betrothal was a ceremony in its own right). Thirdly, and closely linked to the above, Aragorn is deeply indebted to Arwen's father, whom he esteems very highly, and to whom he would never consider offering such an insult as the abandonment of his daughter.
Fourthly, Aragorn is sufficiently wise to see Eowyn's infatuation as just that: a passing 'crush' that would end if allowed to do so; leaving her to discover the reality of love later on. We can see that he understands this from his parting words to her on leaving for Minas Tirith.
Fifthly, of course, there's politics: if Aragorn were to break off his engagement to Arwen in Eowyn's favour, the fragile alliance between Men and Elves could collapse utterly. Aragorn has asked a lot of Elrond in asking for his daughter's hand, and to abandon her would be to throw away the greatest gift that his mentor and benefactor could offer him. Whereas Elrond might forgive, I'm not sure that all other Elves would show such wisdom. Theoden, although blameless, could either refuse the match or face the enmity of the Firstborn, becoming the loser in either case.

These things being so, in my view the possibilities include the following:
1: Arwen dies of grief, or becomes an Elven Miss Havisham. Her life is ruined, as is Elrond's. Elrond never speaks to Aragorn again, and the ties between the Elves and the Dunedain are permanently severed.

2: The bond between Rohan and Gondor is temporarily strengthened, but since Eowyn doesn't really love Aragorn, she could fall for Faramir anyway. That situation could fall out in any number of disasters, including a split between Rohan and Gondor and civil war between the King and the Steward. This assumes a victory over Sauron and Faramir's survival, but this would not be a safe assumption because...

3: Aragorn's banner is never finished. He approaches the Pelennor Fields unrecognised and his army is attacked by both sides in the confusion. Eowyn goes with him rather than the Rohirrim, so she's on the wrong part of the field to face the Witch-King. He defeats Minas Tirith, freeing the Nazgul to resume their search, and Sauron's eye returns to Mordor, noticing Frodo and Sam. Game, set and match to Sauron.

Frankly this would be such a drastic turn of events that there's no end to the possible repercussions.

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: Squatter of Amon Rudh ]

[littlemanpoet]

Squatter: Well said. I was going in the same direction, and am impressed with your follow-through on the likely consequences. It would have been a huge plot twist. Let Stephen R. Donaldson write that one, eh?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I doubt that I've caught all of the reasons, but I hope that I've struck reasonably close to the mark. We could fill an entire thread with the possible results of a love-match between Eowyn and Aragorn, but it's such an unlikely event that it would be purely academic. Incidentally, Stephen R. Donaldson is not a name with which I'm familiar. Who is he?

[DaughterofVana]

Stephen R Donaldson is a fantasy author who's pretty dramatic and has an odd writing style (but that's just my opinion--being as I only read one of his books, I'm not in the area to critique). He wrote a number of books (the one I read was "The Mirror of Her Dreams", first installment of Mordant's Need duology). He also wrote a "fan fiction" (if you can call it that) entry in the Ode-to-Tolkien "After the King," published by Del Rey. The book is quite good, really. The very last story (Death and the Lady, I think it is) is my favorite.

Well, now for my humble opinion. No contest--Aragorn and Arwen. They have the whole "meant for each other" card on the table (which, being the hopless romantic that I am, love, of course.) They're the third (?) pairing of elf and man, and "reunited the lines" that started with the Mariner and the lovely Elwing. Plus, what mortal woman, (even a blonde shield-maiden of the Rohorrim who can ride a horse and not worry about getting her petticoats dirty), could compete with the Evenstar? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Don't get me wrong, though--Eowyn is one of my favorite characters in the book; in my opinion, she was a lot more dynamic as a character than Arwen, and really, a lot more fun to read about. I hope Miranda Otto does her justice--not really familiar with her as an actress, but then again, the only names I knew coming into FotR was Elijah Wood and Ian McKellen, and I was still pleased.

All things aside, though, Eowyn's my girl. I love it when girls get to kick some evil-*** --Guess it's the feminist in me. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

'Vana

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Eowyn is one of my favorite characters in the book; in my opinion, she was a lot more dynamic as a character than Arwen

Same here. I can't stand those brainless scream-at-the-first-sign-of-a-mouse types that were knocking about in films when LoTR was published.

I think that what makes Aragorn and Arwen so compatible is their outlook, which is very similar: they don't wear their hearts on their sleeves; they both take their responsibilities very seriously and it's very difficult to imagine either of them making an unconsidered decision. Eowyn, on the other hand, is a lot more wilful: being a lot younger, her emotions are closer to the surface and she acts more spontaneously. I expect that she'd feel stifled being married to a careful chap like Strider; and being Queen of Gondor would have cramped her style. I'm sure that Ithilien was a much better place for her to be. In that respect, the story of Eowyn and Faramir; Arwen and Aragorn is very reminiscent of Jane Austen's plots to my mind.

[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: Squatter of Amon Rudh ]

[Rohirrim Lass]

DaughterofVana: Actually, I believe they were the fourth pairing of an elf and human.

[littlemanpoet]

Very insightful posts, Squatter and DaughterofVana (welcome to the Downs, by they way).

Stephen R. Donaldson is best known for his series, "Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever", six extremely long and overwritten fantasy novels. Back in the 70's he was hailed by some as the next Tolkien. Not even close. He hails from upstate New York where his father was a doctor at a leper colony - the protagonist in the monster series is a leper who gets all his feeling back in the "other-world", and he can't control it. It's an interesting basis, but he really did over-write the thing. It was a chore to read - unlike Tolkien imho.

[*Varda*]

Arwen and Aragorn were the 3rd pairing of elf and man.

1. Beren and Luthien
2. Idril and Tuor
3. Arwen and Aragorn

Elwing and Earendil weren't really an elf/man pairing. I think they were both part elf, part man...correct me if I'm wrong because I'm unsure of that bit without looking it up.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

You're right about the ancestry of Elwing and Earendil, Varda: Earendil is the son of Idril and Tuor, and Elwing is the grand-daughter of Beren and Luthien. However, if we apply that logic then Aragorn and Arwen don't count either: Arwen's father is the son of Elwing and Earendil and his brother is Aragorn's direct antecedent in the male line, which makes Arwen part-human and Aragorn part-elf. It also means that there are dangerously few branches in their family tree. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

This means that Beren and Luthien and Tuor and Idril are the only two couples of which one party was purely Elven and the other was purely human. I think that we're intended to see all four as alliances of Men and Elves, probably more in a dynastic than a genetic sense.

[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: Squatter of Amon Rudh ]

[DaughterofVana]

::slaps forehead::: Soon as I let loose with that post I knew that I messed up with the order of the parings. Beren and Luthien came first, of course. I knew that there was one more, at least, before the couple in question, I thought it was Earendil and Elwing. It could very well be Idril and Tuor.

When I was more awake, I looked it up, and on page 248 in "Of the Voyage of Earendil and the War of the Wrath" it says: "Then Earendil, first of the living men, landed on the immortal shores..." So maybe...

Well, he COULD be considered half-elven, too. Ulmo speaks on 249 of the Mariner's dual bloodlines: "And say unto me: whether he is Earendil Tuor's son of the line of Hador, or the son of Idril, Turgon's daughter, of the Elven-house of Finwe?"

BUT, after that, Manwe judged that they and their offspring could choose what race they share kin to, and both chose to be Firstborn. "And Elwing chose to be judged among the Firstborn Children of Iluvatar, because of Luthien; and for her sake Earendil chose alike, though his heart was rather with the kindred of Men and the people of his father."

Oh, bother. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

'Vana

Regarding possibility 3 listed above, I think that Arwen had woven his banner with the insignia of the Kings long before the War of the Ring ever started.

It is almost impossible to imagine Middle-Earth without Aragorn marrying Arwen. His life is so shot through with the fulfillment of prophecies that there's almost no one else that he could marry. Consider that by marrying Arwen, the lines of the Half-Elven are reunited, which had been sundered since before the establishment of Numenor. That's a long time. Arwen was also about the only person he could have married to reestablish the Royal House as it was of old Gondor, strong-blooded and long-lived.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Regarding possibility 3 listed above, I think that Arwen had woven his banner with the insignia of the Kings long before the War of the Ring ever started.

This is a fair comment. On further reflection, by the time that Aragorn meets Éowyn, the banner is finished and probably on its way to meet him. However, as soon as Elladan and Elrohir, who were travelling with Halbarad's company, realised what was going on I think that there might well have been trouble: I expect that they'd simply have taken it straight back to Rivendell with them, which leaves my assumption about the result largely unchanged.

Arwen was also about the only person he could have married to reestablish the Royal House as it was of old Gondor, strong-blooded and long-lived.

It's funny that this should be really: normally genealogies like that of Aragorn's family turn out all sorts of genetic abnormalities; yet in the case of the Dúnedain the paucity of familial branches is taken to be a source of strength. Perhaps Elven blood is clear of inherited defects.

[O'Boile]

I think that if Aragorn did not have a banner, they would have still known not to fight each other. They would have thought of some way of identifying themselves, so the result of the battle would probably have been the same.

[Elsaur]

i agree with squatter about the whole logic thing but i just like eowyn better because she had the whole warrior chic thing going on and arwen just sat there and looked pretty. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Rohirrim Lass]

Or not even that pretty. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

In a way, I do like the portrayal of Arwen in the movie. Having her be a more active player patterns her more strongly after Luthien Tinuviel, who saved Beren in Angband and helped him to take back a Silmarill.

It's funny that this should be really: normally genealogies like that of Aragorn's family turn out all sorts of genetic abnormalities; yet in the case of the Dúnedain the paucity of familial branches is taken to be a source of strength. Perhaps Elven blood is clear of inherited defects.

Well, that's the thing. I'm never quite sure how to interpret Tolkien's world, because he certainly places it as a history of this universe that we live in now, yet it seems to follow rules that we think of as characteristic of myth.

Maybe the fact that marrying our cousins screws us up signifies the weakening of men as Time flows ever onward. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I think that if Aragorn did not have a banner, they would have still known not to fight each other. They would have thought of some way of identifying themselves, so the result of the battle would probably have been the same.

I'm not so sure: there's a reason why people carried banners and it wasn't for the sake of style. Aragorn was sailing up in ships captured from the enemy; his men were heavily armed, so their faces would have been hidden; the Corsairs didn't look that different from Rangers, and the defenders' tactics would have to be formulated before the new force drew close enough to be recognised in any case. I think that there would have been confusion and uncertainty for long enough to cause serious problems.

Now, Aragorn might have been able to knock up some sort of makeshift standard (wasting valuable time doing so, of course); but that would have looked like a rather feeble ruse de guerre and might have been ignored.

i agree with squatter about the whole logic thing but i just like eowyn better because she had the whole warrior chic thing going on and arwen just sat there and looked pretty.

I don't see what's so chic about war.
A lot of people prefer Éowyn because she gets stuck in; but fighting isn't the only proof of worth, and her physical courage is balanced by insecurity and fear of responsibility: in my opinion, Arwen would make the better leader, because she can make a considered decision and stick to it. I've discussed my ideas about these two characters in a lot more depth on the Are Tolkien's Books Sexist? thread.

In a way, I do like the portrayal of Arwen in the movie. Having her be a more active player patterns her more strongly after Luthien Tinuviel, who saved Beren in Angband and helped him to take back a Silmarill.

But if all women in Middle-earth were like Lúthien, Tolkien could be accused of using unimaginative and unrealistic stock characters, which is what the film version of Arwen was, let's face it. They might as well have had Barliman Butterbur played as a grizzled ex-soldier by Bruce Willis.

Personally I think that both of the characters have something to recommend them: Éowyn's your girl if there are Orcs to be killed; Arwen's more the person you'd go to for help with a difficult decision. As I said, I've gone into more depth elsewhere.

[O'Boile]

Aragorn came up with all of the forces of southern Gondor... I'm sure they would have had a couple of banners or standards or something.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

The text makes no mention of other standards. I also don't find it too difficult to believe that a force raised in haste would have little time for proper organisation, including the retrieval of any banners they might have had lying around. In the medieval context, however, standards are a prerogative of the nobility, and not an inexpensive one at that.

[Keeper of the Feet of Melkor]

Its simple,
Aragorn loved Arwen,
Eowyn had a crush on Aragorn...it was temporary, but i don't blame her for trying to get him [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] . He does have some appealing qualities...