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12-22-2012, 08:09 PM | #1 |
Animated Skeleton
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Balrog vs 200 000 dwarves ?
Came about this article
http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/...ddle-earth.htm estimating that Moria at it's peak had a population of 200 000 dwarves at its peak. I guess the population wasnt much lower when they woke up the Balrog in TA 1980. Since they had found mithril and they were richer than ever, I guess plenty of dwarves wanted to lived there. This means that ONE Balrog can beat 200 000 dwarves in combat - something I find a bit crazy - and it has some other implications. The Balrog and Gandalf (the Grey) can be consideres of even power, since they both died trying to kill each other. Or killed each other, while dying in the process Saruman is stronger than Gandalf (the Grey), as he managed to dominate him and improsion him in Orthanc, as well as being his master etc. This means Saruman should have been able to, single handedly, to clear out all of Rohan and then Minas Tirith when he had rested a bit. Since he is worth 200 000 + dwarves in fighting power himself alone, it also seems his army of 10 000 orcs was sorta superfluous and not worth all the trouble. He should have spent the time exercising his own martial arts instead. I find this silly ... so I prefer to go back to the first premise and assume that the Balrog had helpers, and lots of them. We arent told how exactly the Balrog vs. Dwarves war happened. Alternatively, we can lower the population of Moria to something more easy to handle, like 10 000. And assume the Balrog used a sort of hit-and-run tactics, killing them in small isolated groups. |
12-22-2012, 10:19 PM | #2 | ||
Gruesome Spectre
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I think that's reasonable. Moria would hardly have been suited to combat involving hundreds inside the mines anyway; its defenses seem to have been justifiably geared toward repelling invaders. They wouldn't have been prepared for something like the Balrog appearing suddenly inside .
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12-22-2012, 10:37 PM | #3 | |
Wight
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Even 10,000, for a cave-dwelling population, seems high - but even if you go with that population, there seems no indication the Balrog initiated a direct frontal assault. He lives in a realm of tunnels which he knows very well (especially the lower ones). He also has some level of (what might be thought of as magical) arts - witness him perceiving Gandalf's "shutting spell" and delivering a counter-spell that breaks Gandalf's control. So, I'd imagine him sneaking around, finding and killing Dwarves where he finds them, and, when approached by a force, slashing them, bashing them, and disappearing back into the bowels of the earth. In a tunnel, the Dwarves can't surround him and attempt to overwhelm him with superior numbers. Essentially, each confrontation becomes something like 20 to 1 (or even 50 to 1). If the Balrog can win that fight, and maintain his stamina, he can kill Thousands of Dwarves - 20 at a time. Until, finally, the Dwarves realize they can't keep that up. |
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12-22-2012, 10:54 PM | #4 |
Pile O'Bones
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I think you are making a false equivalency.
Being able to defeat the conqueror of a third party, does not automatically make one capable of defeating that third party personally. For example let's consider a Heavy tank. Any number of troops with light arms would probably be defeated by a tiny tank crew, equipped as they are with heavy armament (and presumably a huge amount of ammunition.) However 1 solider with a suitable anti-tank missile has a fair chance of emerging victorious. That same soldier is going to be utterly vanquished by a relative small number of troops armed with only light weaponry. --- Talking about Balrogs, Gandalf and huge potential Dwarf armies we are ignoring the magic factor. The fact is that Balrogs are massively sorcerously equipped, being as they are, fallen Maiar. I doubt that there was any Dwarf, or Dwarf cadre even remotely equipped to counter such power. Consider that the only people we know of, who have been capable of effective combat with Balrogs, prior to Gandalf, were spectacularly powerful Eldar. Even 'run of the mill' first age or related Elves were no match for Balrogs. A small army of Balrogs could drive off Ungoliant, who in her turn had totally cowed, and albeitly reduced, Morgoth - a Valar. Further we have little evidence that Dwarf weaponry could even significantly harm a Balrog. Consider that Gandalf was hewing away at the Balrog with Turgon's own sword (a masterpiece of elven craft of a passed age, and magic to boot), and it wasn't exactly making short work of Mr Balrog. Now Gandalf can counter the Balrog's sorcery, being internally, a Maiar himself. He then can meet it on 'equal' terms and has the right sword for the job. However in mortal guise Gandalf is indeed going to be arrow or axe fodder for a huge army of Dwarves, and doesn't appear to be equipped with the sort of mass combat magic that could take out a Dwarven army. So just as the soldier with the ATM, he (or Saruman) is going to be in a tight spot faced with such foes. So there we are: The Balrog is a tank. Gandalf is a soldier with an Anti-Tank Missile. A Dwarf Army is a battalion of light infantry. Solved :P |
12-22-2012, 11:05 PM | #5 | |||
Animated Skeleton
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It struck me that we dont know if the dwarves at the time of the Balrog's arrival were in good fighting condition - maybe they had few warrioirs and most of them were wimpy mithril craftsmen. Quote:
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The balrogs ability to "move fast as if winged" or whatever the correct quote in would sure be a big boost for it in hit an run guerilla tactics. Would have been a real nasty year for the dwarves, with the balrog attacking all over the place killing small groups. |
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12-22-2012, 11:08 PM | #6 | |
Animated Skeleton
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Killing 20 dwarfs a day on an average day, he would get 7300 in a year. Funnily that adds up pretty well with the 10 000 population. |
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12-22-2012, 11:25 PM | #7 |
Animated Skeleton
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It's quite a gruesome plotline now.
The dwarves desperately try to fight the Balrog - trying to contain it by caving in rooms, closing off sections, luring it near water reservoirs and trying to drown it etc. (The parts visited in LOTR were undamaged, but the fighting probably took place deeper down.). The King sits in the command room getting the MIA list of names every day and making desperate plans. Another things has dawned on me - there were survivors, but nobody knows it was a Balrog. The elves would surely had recognized it, if the story got around that it was a shadowy-flamy figure that sorta looked like it had wings, but maybe it didnt have them, wielding a whip of fire. I dont find it credible that the dwarves kept the description of the attacker a secret - and i dont find it credible either they forgot it. Its a mayor event in their legends. So I suppose NO SURVIVORS SAW IT. Each and every dwarf that met and saw the balrog died, and the survivors could just count the bodies, not even knowing what was attacking them. Maybe the small groups of dwarves sometimes just disappeared without a trace - the balrog could toss them into the wells for instance. The Balrog would want to remain secret, lest the elves would go looking for it. Maybe a few dawrves saw glipses of it and such - but noone got a good look so they could describe it. It's completely like the 1979 ALIEN movie now - just with a Balrog instead of the alien, Moria indtead of a spaceship (both are confined artificial structures), "someplace deep" instead of an unknown planet as "the place they should not have disturbed". Except it took a whole year and thousands were killed bit by bit. I imagine the surviving dwarves had sorta strained nerves when they left and one or two had developed a solid paranoia. Yeech. Last edited by Juicy-Sweet; 12-22-2012 at 11:58 PM. |
12-23-2012, 02:25 AM | #8 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Also no matter how many Dwarves it actually killed (there were enough survivors to colonise Erebor and the Grey Mountains) one could image a point where the aura of terror it exuded was too much for the Dwarves to resist which might help to account for how it was able to destroy this great kingdom single-handedly. |
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12-23-2012, 07:48 AM | #9 |
Pile O'Bones
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I struggle to view a 12 feet tall Balrog (with associated flame and shadow) operating as a stealth assassin. This just doesn't resonate with their MO in any version ie the pre-Maiar dragon riders, or revised Maiar (only 7 ever in existence) version.
I do think we have to consider that the Dwarves simply had no potent counter to the Balrog's huge sorcerous power, massive physical strength and capacity to make most opponents flee through sheer intimidation. With regards to Gandalf, to sum up my earlier position: simply because I can defeat my friend's enemy (even if he can't), does not mean I can defeat my enemy. That said, uninhibited by human form, I wouldn't be surprised if any of the Istari could single handedly go to war with a Dwarf army. The Balrog has no imposed inhibitions, it is what it is, raw in its power. |
12-23-2012, 08:26 AM | #10 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Isn't a Balrog a Maia? I doubt they really tire so lets assume ALL the dwarves did attack the Balrog it's not as if they all attacked at once. just can't be done. A balrog could I think easily take on 10-15 dwarves at a time.
Also, as somene else mentioned the Balrog probably picked off a lt secretly. cause stirs and whispers and a general fear.
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12-23-2012, 03:34 PM | #11 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Did Tolkien ever say there were 200,000 dwarves in Khazad-dum? If so, where precisely? I find the number ridiculously high, perhaps over 10 times the actual number at any given time. The dwarves were never a prolific race to begin with.
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12-23-2012, 08:07 PM | #12 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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A figure of 10,000-20,000 dwarves seems more of a realistic maximum,
not only with slow population increase but supplying them with food, etc. Rohan itself, in a time at the War of the Ring when they had pretty much recovered from past problems, probably had a population of perhaps 100,000 (assuming a male fighting pop. of about Theoden's 10,000 estimate. Especially after Hollin wasn't a source of trade there's limited trade potential--- dwarves better love eating mushrooms grown in tunnels (like in southeast Pa.). The image of an Alien stalking Moria is not only scary- but could be not that far from Tolkien's conception. Of course that does bring up the question of how the balrog organized his orc/troll forces in Moria later. He seems to have been the generalisimo.
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12-23-2012, 11:10 PM | #13 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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"Each and every dwarf that met and saw the balrog died, and the survivors could just count the bodies, not even knowing what was attacking them."
Ah, got it. So it's Alien.
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12-24-2012, 06:25 PM | #14 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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From the lack of description as you said the dwarves never had a pitched battle with the Balrog. They probably experienced a sense of dread and were picked off. We must also accept that enough dwarves left to populate and create Erebor. So after a certain amount of deaths, the dwarves probably decided to escape. The war with Sauron, though brief in the Second Age would have cut numbers back too. |
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12-27-2012, 05:53 PM | #15 | |
Animated Skeleton
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Obviously Gandalf has no idea whatsoever there's is a Balrog in Moria. If he knew it was there, he would have picked ANY other route than Moria. Better to walk through Isengard then This means no elf knew it either - if they did, they would tell Galadrian/Elrond(some other leader, and eventually Elrond would hear about th Balrog and tell Gandalf. So my assumptions is that if anyone remotely allied with the Elves knew it was a Balrog, the information would have winded up with Gandalf. We ALSO know that all elves that heard the description of the balrog would know immediately what it was - Legolas reaction in LOTR - I assume as well that even a vague description would make them think it was probably a balrog. This leaves two possibilities: EITHER the dwarves saw the balrog, but didnt tell anyone about it, ever. This makes no sense to me, so I dont like this version. They must have wanted to find out what the *** it was, so they could find out how to kill it and get Moria back. So they should have gone around to all available loremasters with their best drawing of it asking "how do we kill this?". And yes, they are hostile with the elves. But I think the possibility of getting an advice like "ah this think dies from garlic" would have made them ask the elves in spite of their enmity. Or ELSE they didnt see it at all, meaning noone ever figured out what it was and noone could help them. |
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12-27-2012, 06:14 PM | #16 |
Animated Skeleton
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I googled "Moria population estimate" to see if there was some golden thread out there - but I just found this one, as well as a bunch of REAL places called Moria.
Dunno if there's mentioned a headcount of ANY dwarven city anywhere in Tolkien? The we could compare and guess a bit. Otherwise I suppose the 10 000 estimate which also is pretty random is orthodoxy now - since we are page 1 in google Another thought in why it might have been easy for the Balrog. Moria must have had a heavy bueareaycracy + safety measures for two reasons: Mines always need to control the miners for theft. Seing Moria is mining the priciest of all things to mine, mithril, they must have had extensive rules and laws for who were allowed to mine where, to control if noone was cheating. Due to them only having few exits, they are very vulnerable to being besieged. It means they must have had huge food supplies + water supplies + heavy safety measures to prevent sabotage. So I imagine Moria as a place with most people being informed only on a "need to know basis", with a lot of identity paper ("Sir this is a class B mithril mine. We need to know you belong here.") and security clearing etc - a slow inefficient bureaucracy. Meaning they sucked at adapting their defenses from armies coming from the outside to an unknown enemy from the inside. And their forces were hampered by red tape when they wanted to pass through a mithril mine to blow up the section they thought the balrog was in. etc. |
12-30-2012, 09:54 PM | #17 |
Wight
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I think the comparison with Alien is excellent: most of dwarves had probably never seen their Bane before until Gimli could and those who had got such a chance were dead next moment. But unlike Alien, Balrog had advantages - weapons of mass destruction. He could make ceilings fall with his spells and burn air in mines, suffocating dwarves.
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12-30-2012, 10:50 PM | #18 |
Cryptic Aura
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I have just a tiny little question to ask.
What does this have to do with the Books? There seems to be very little discussion of Tolkien's actual texts.
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12-31-2012, 04:17 PM | #19 |
Wight
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It looks as if it's not the only discussion like this at Barrowdowns. There is a problem and it seems texts say little about it. Could you contribute?
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12-31-2012, 09:24 PM | #20 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Beth, it seems everyone is talking about the current Hobbit movie. What does that have to do with the book?
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12-31-2012, 09:27 PM | #21 |
Cryptic Aura
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Oh, there's no problem with the discussion, Sarumian.
Indeed, there are many like it here on the Downs. I was simply wondering if it belonged in this forum, which is supposed to be about in depth discussion of the books, since it isn't book-based. Perhaps one of the other forums, which are devoted more to conjecture and opinion, would draw more attention to the topic? Since the texts say little about the topic, I wouldn't have much to contribute, but thank you kindly for asking.
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12-31-2012, 09:35 PM | #22 |
Cryptic Aura
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But Morth, we have our very own special forum for that, the movie forum, to which you have recently added much drama and intrigue. There's a place for everything and everything in its place. Perhaps a fitting quote from Alice In Wonderland--part of which was first presented as an Anglo Saxon poem and so does bear some affinity to Tolkien--can justify my cantankerousness: I have lost my muchness.
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01-01-2013, 08:03 AM | #23 | |||||||
A Mere Boggart
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Legolas would know what a Balrog was from tales of the destruction of Gondolin, he wouldn't need to see one. But in any case, I think that some in Middle-earth knew there was something lurking in Moria, and may have even known what it was. Gimli, I think, knew exactly what Durin's Bane was: Quote:
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01-01-2013, 09:49 PM | #24 | ||
Pile O'Bones
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The hostility runs both ways (e.g. Ban on Dwarves in Lorien), so lines of communication are pretty weak at best. Plus word had reached the wise, it simply was clearly insufficiently informed or detailed to allow for an ID. You're assuming the lore-less could simply get a good description on a Balrog, it's so sorcerously potent, and able to cloak itself in fire and shadow, any ID would very probably just a generic big bad evil. --- But all of this aside, it's inconcievable that the utterly warlike fire Maiar who could chase off Ungoliant (a big bad on a power scale to rival a Valar), would take to sneaking around. Plus let's not forget that the earlier people's of Middle Earth were vastly more powerful than subsequent generations. A Third Age Dwarf army/population is really not all that puissant in comparison to any host assembled in the First, and the Dwarves have never even been remotely on the same power level as the Eldar. Balrogs who could plough their way through hosts of the Eldar really wouldn't even notice 10/20,000 Dwarves. |
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01-01-2013, 11:52 PM | #25 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Well we have no confirmation of him battling lots all at once or small numbers. More likely than not only small numbers had the courage to try to buy time for the rest to escape.
Their weapons.....proved ineffective.
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01-02-2013, 12:00 AM | #26 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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The only creatures that had such power were the flying dragons, Glaurung and Carcharoth. The Balrogs were captains, but they usually the more powerful elven lords were enough to at least stall one. We have seen the Balrogs sneak around plenty of times. The Balrog of Moria was only alive, because he managed to sneak under the earth. When Morgoth was first overthrown once more the Balrogs snuck in the dungeons. There appears to be some cowardice when Gothmog is charged with capturing Hurin as well. Instead of go and capture him personally he sends his troll guard and only approaches when Hurin is restained. A Balrog was strong, but an army of 10,000 dwarves would be too great for him. If the elves had know there was a Balrog there then I am sure they may have done something about it. Glorfindel was already a balrog slayer and now he returned more powerful. |
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01-02-2013, 11:33 AM | #27 | ||||
Pile O'Bones
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Could any host of elves, men or Dwarves even begin to combat Ungoliant? The answer would appear to be a resounding no. However a relatively small number (presumably) of Balrogs can drive her off (when Melkor himself cannot?) This puts them on an incredible power level. With regards to their direct interaction with the Eldar, in general only the most puissant of the Eldar could meet them in single combat, and their defeat generally claimed the lives of those same individuals. Their like (with a few exceptions ie Galadriel) is no longer in Middle Earth. Only 3? Individuals we know of have ever defeated a Balrog. Seeing as Balrogs ie siege of Gondolin tend to lead from the front, it suggests that they were simply ploughing through all but the mightiest of the Eldar. The very presence of the Balrog unmans both Legolas and Gimli. It is probable, as per the texts, that the weapons of the Dwarves of the Third Age simply wouldn't have any potency against a Balrog. Whilst not all Balrogs would appear to be created equal, they can (e.g. Gothmog) be on a power scale to rival Sauron. Do we think 20,000 dwarves could defeat Sauron? It was luck and no ordinary sword which could even do Sauron the least of hurts. Quote:
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The wise DID know there was a big bad monster in Moria, they chose to leave it alone. No doubt understanding that they would be facing that might be more than their equal. As for Glorfindel, even returned he's still no match for say Feanor, and Feanor (the most powerful Elf who has ever lived) was outmatched by Balrogs ultimately. |
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01-02-2013, 11:55 AM | #28 | |
Late Istar
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01-02-2013, 12:40 PM | #29 |
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As Gandalf might say, here follows an account of general info pertaining to Balrogs...
Externally, just looking at it as a story, Balrogs are meant to be a match for the Eldar as Dragons are a match for Men. Balrogs were more than captains leading Morgoth's armies, they were his on-field commanders and highly skilled (plus powerful) combatants. They are meant as a mighty strong opponent for the greatest of the Eldar (or maiar in Gandalf's case). As Draughohtar mentions, they drive off Ungoliant, they slay Feanor, Glorfindel and Gandalf battle Balrogs. Men's "great opponent" are the Dragons. For this match to work, from a story standpoint, dragons have to be slightly less powerful than balrogs, as Men are less powerful than Elves. Of course there are situations where any sort of 'luck' or certain circumstances can lead to a lesser opponent defeating a greater one. There are also Men who are more powerful than Elves, but in a direct comparison the greatest of the Eldar are superior to the greatest of Men, the average Eldar are greater than the average Men. I'm just talking generally here, in how Balrog, dragons, Eldar, Men...etc are presented in the story. Now within the context of the story, Balrogs being incarnate could of course be slain and in some hypothetical scenario of "How many dwarves does it take to kill a Balrog?", of course tens of thousands could feasibly do it (that would assume the dwarves don't flee in terror from the aura of fear and power a Balrog can command). But seeing as they were Morgoth's on-field commanders, I doubt a single Balrog would take on tens of thousands of dwarves. If they were vain, reckless idiots, Morgoth wouldn't have used them as captains. They willingly seek out battle and challenge the greatest of Eldar (plus Gandalf), but they also show tactful retreat when it is necessary. They do fight pretty dirty but by no means are they reckless or cowardly.
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01-02-2013, 01:14 PM | #30 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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Thing is, it's physically impossible for anyone to fight 20,000 enemies at a time. I would say even 10 gets a bit crowded.
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01-02-2013, 01:58 PM | #31 |
Cryptic Aura
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amazing that Bombadil book
But really, all it would take to kill a balrog is one Fastitocalon.
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01-02-2013, 03:32 PM | #32 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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I still think this question comes down to the Dwarves having a lack of understanding of what they were dealing with, coupled with the unmanning fear surrounding the Balrog. Consider the Nazgûl. On their own, Tolkien said they had no great power over the fearless, and by that, he meant physical power. So, one would think that the Nazgûl were capable of being destroyed like the Witch-king eventually was, if only one could summon the courage. However, it took millennia before that circumstance was reached. Then, magnify the terror of the Nazgûl by many times, and add to it the fear of an unknown quantity with an awe-inspiring visage, and one gets a picture of what the Dwarves faced.
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01-02-2013, 05:34 PM | #33 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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And the phantom could do it standing on his head.
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But I would also add that the Balrog fights not only with physical weapons (ie swords etc), or even psychological ones (ie fear), but also with that inner "force" that you can't block with any shield or weapon. When Sauron walked out of Barad-dur wielding the Ring, he didn't suddenly have better sword-fighting skills, but he had this metaphysical power. Similarly with the Balrog. I am of the opinion that Gandalf and Balrog had a battle of wills, both at the door (duh), but mostly on the bridge. The Balrog had a power even Gandalf had a hard time resisting. What could a group of Dwarves do against it? Their power was mostly in physical weapons. ...Or I just like to imagine a metaphysical part to everything.
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01-02-2013, 06:19 PM | #34 | ||
A Mere Boggart
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Perhaps it was known by those few who did know/guess that the Balrog might be in Moria that Gandalf was the very best placed opponent for it? And that they didn't want him to face it? After all, it was known what it did to Glorfindel in the escape from Gondolin. Hoping to win against this Balrog with a sword is fairly hopeless though: Quote:
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01-02-2013, 06:46 PM | #35 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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I doubt that anyone knew that it was a Balrog, or Gandalf, of all people, would have known. Instead, Durin's Bane and Balrog seemed like two unrelated entities. Aragorn's prediction, in my eyes, was just foresight, not knowledge.
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01-02-2013, 07:51 PM | #36 | ||||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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It took Fingon riding at the front of 200 elves to drive off a baby Glaurung. Quote:
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How was Hurin easily mastered by Gothmog in combat? In fact it was quite the opposite with Gothmog waiting until his troll guard and thousands of orcs had restrained Hurin, before he approached. The great dragons are certainly on a greater scale than the Balrogs. Even Smaug was a threat to Rivendell and Lorien. Do you think the Balrog would have any hope of destroying Rivendell or Lorien? Balrogs had greater spiritual potency than dragons, but I would not say more than Glaurung and perhaps Ancalagon. Their potent spiritual power would be a great weapon against the dwarves, but less so against High Elves capable of resisting. Quote:
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Now Feanor himself was killed by all the Balrogs together. There was no chance of the Balrog standing a chance against the Wise, considering just Gandalf alone was enough to kill it. Last edited by cellurdur; 01-02-2013 at 08:05 PM. |
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01-02-2013, 09:02 PM | #37 | ||||
Laconic Loreman
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Boromir is a warrior, in every meaning of the word, including having an excessive pride by not knowing when he's overmatched by an opponent. Boromir was one of the few who did not flee from the Nazgul, when Sauron launched a diversionary attack on Osgiliath to get the Nazgul across the Anduin and hunt for the Ring. Boromir also blasted his horn to challenge the Balrog in Moria. His death is purely a warrior's death, because simply put, Boromir did not flee from battles (except in this case when Gandalf refused to let Aragorn and Boromir aid him, for as Lal brings up Gandalf's statement). Quote:
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Gandalf tries to put a shutting spell on the door, Durin's Bane counters and Gandalf has to quickly speak a 'Word of Command' to try to shut the door. Durin's Bane responds with such a terrible counter spell, the door explodes and Gandalf says it nearly "breaks him" Fastforward to the bridge. Gandalf decided to challenge Durin's Bane again. "I am a servant of the Secret Fire. Wielder of the flame of Anor..." (Bridge of Khazad-dum). Gandalf isn't just uttering nonsense here, he is revealing his true nature as a Maiar and servant of Eru. Once knowing Durin's Bane was indeed a Balrog, Gandalf understands their nature and history, thus knowing no one else in the Fellowship had the will, weapons, nor skill to defeat him. The Balrog answers the challenge by "stepping onto the bridge." Gandalf breaks the bridge, Durin's Bane drags him down and when they do reach a bottom "ever he clutched me and ever I hewed him." Both at this point, from either the fall or the blows (Gandalf also said he was burned) had sustained wounds far beyond what a Man could endure. The fight continues on the peak until finally Gandalf slays him, but Gandalf is also killed in the process. If a Balrog died in combat, not one instance did the Balrog not kill its assailant. I don't say this to mean in a hypothetical situation, under no circumstances could someone kill a Balrog and then walk away from it. But gathering the battles we do know, probability and odds all point to, if someone is powerful enough to slay a Balrog, that person would be killed as well. They were dishonourable and no doubt resorted to dirty tactics when they wanted, but this does not change the fact they were skilled fighters, skilled to use a variety of weapons, and possessed not only great spiritual power, but physical power.
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Fenris Penguin
Last edited by Boromir88; 01-02-2013 at 11:26 PM. |
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01-02-2013, 10:26 PM | #38 | |||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 276
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As for dragons, no doubt they were dishonourable, but was just pointing out how Balrogs were too. I was dispelling the idea, that a Balrog would not be content to sneak around Moria. Quote:
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I am not sure about your last assessment that if someone was powerful enough to slay a Balrog they would not walk away from it. Balrogs, maybe as many as 4, were slain against the host of Valinor. Feanor himself was putting up a fight against most of the Balrogs together. I would be hesitant to suggest either he would not win one one. That being said the Balrog was a great and powerful terror. However, to suggest he could take on thousands of Dwarves at once is too much for me. That apart there would at least be a few survivors, who would have spread the word if he had fought them all at once. |
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01-04-2013, 09:50 PM | #39 | ||||||||
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 23
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As for Glaurung, of course they are potent, but their inate power is naturally less than that of a Maia, being secondary products of Morgoth's breeding program. As for Aragorn and Boromir, one might construe that Boromir was too ignorant to be afraid, and Aragorn is far far from an ordinary man. Aragorn and a small band of men turn the tide of the Battle of the Pelenor fields. (As opposed to the hoardes of the dead as per PJ's version). Quote:
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Glorfindel is all speculation tbh, and indeed appears to be retcon'ing on the part of Tolkien. As for Gandalf he is an embodied Maia WITH a ring of power, and he still has to die to defeat the Balrog. None of the wise would have willingly picked that fight needlessly. |
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01-04-2013, 11:24 PM | #40 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
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I agree though that it doesn't seem unreasonable to imagine the Balrog of Moria being capable of destroying the Dwarves in numbers to an extent. My reading of Professor Tolkien's work has always suggested to me that the confrontations involving powerful beings tend to involve some element of spiritual potency, the "might" of a creature which involves more than physical strength or skill. Despite all their crafts and such lore as they possessed, the Dwarves have always appeared to me to largely be beings who were not especially mighty in this regard, at least compared to those who were especially potent among the Ainur, the Noldor and the Edain (and Dúnedain). Consider some of the memorable heroics of Elves and Men mentioned in this discussion compared to some of the great feats of Dwarven heroes: Azaghâl wounding Glauring or Dáin Ironfoot slaying Azog. These are impressive deeds in their own way, no doubt, but not necessarily on the same level as, say, Ecthelion of the Fountain against Gothmog or Turambar against Glaurung. I don't mean to suggest that the Dwarves were inferior as soldiers compared to Elves and Men in general - it appears that they were among the more formidable forces in military terms - but that they lacked the supremely heroic individuals of other races. That being said, given that Durin's Folk had sufficient numbers to colonise other regions after the abandonment of Moria it would suggest to me that it was not so much a matter of Durin's Bane wiping out enormous armies as it was killing those forces sent against it (including two kings) in such a way that the survivors could see that trying to withstand it was futile and that they would eventually all have been killed had they stayed. The situation would suggest to me that the Balrog could probably chew through such opposition as was deployed against it by the Dwarves; a mighty hero could have opposed it as in the Elder Days (and eventually did in the shape of Gandalf) but the Dwarves themselves lacked the means to handle it. I don't really see the Balrog wiping out armies of thousands of Dwarves single-handedly either but the examples of the First Age would suggest to me that such beings were generally at risk mostly from individuals of relatively comparable power and perhaps were not to be worn down by numbers alone. |
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