Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
10-31-2012, 07:11 AM | #1 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 5
|
Weapons in Vallinor?
Hi im new to this forums and i have loved the tolkien legendarium since i was a little kid. So dont be rude if i ask dumb questions. But one thing i find strange is. At the kinslaying of elves. How did the noldor have weapons. What use did they have in vallinor? And if the valar saw the elves making weapons why didnt they stop them, because there was no need for it, and could only be used to bad things like violence and murder. So what do you think?
|
10-31-2012, 07:30 AM | #2 | |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 23
|
Quote:
The Silmarills then come into the equation and become a thing 'too' precious to the elves, and which Morgoth can use as leverage to ramp up suspicion and disharmony. As soon as the concept of jealous love for 'things' entered into the hearts of Feanor and co. it was a short 'hop' of reasoning to begin making a means to defend their treasure. As for the Valar 'seeing' this, they aren't Gods, and they aren't omniscient or omnipresent. There is only one God in the Tolkien universe; and whilst Manwe sees much, he does not see all. For example Ungoliant's shroud of unlight was impenetrable to his eyes. Eru would have had no trouble with that, or indeed anything at all. Thus, the trusting Valar, seeing only light and beauty in Valinor, saw no reason to think anything was amiss. All the work of weapons making was done in total secrecy, lest 'thieves' of the Silmarils become aware and act. Once Feanor had unsheathed his sword to drive off his half brothers from counselling wisdom to their father Finwe, so the discord and arms race amongst the Noldor was set in motion. As for the kinslaying, well again it comes down to the jealous love of things, and Feanor's arrogant idiocy (as well as his father's foolishly unswerving loyalty.) Once the elves had it in their minds to return to Middle Earth and take up rule there, those weapons developed for the protection of things, were turned to new hideous purposes (As well as weapons of hunting that everyone had good reason to have: The elves and the Valar weren't vegetarians :P) The Valar do not prescribe against free-will. The elves were free to come, free to go. Free to make weapons, free to act as they would. They were counselled otherwise, but the Valar do not want mastery as per Morgoth. Had they known of Morgoth's lies earlier, and the rash actions of a younger Feanor, then I'm certain intervention with good counsel and the punishment of Morgoth might have changed how things turned out. However when it all started to go to the bad, the Elves were free to find their own bad fortune. Whilst the curse of Mandos is grim, it's important to note that the Elves themselves bring the curse down on themselves. Thingol makes himself part of it later on, simply by falling under the spell of greed for the Silmarills. In short, the Valar were decieved, the Eldar learned jealousy and a need to protect their treasure, Morgoth's lies succeeded, and the Valar would not stop the free will of any of the children of Illuvatar, no matter how catastrophic. |
|
10-31-2012, 07:31 AM | #3 |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
|
Welcome, Aeglos!
It is said in the Silmarillion that Fëanor was taught the art of metal work by his father-in-law Mahtan, who had in turned learned from Aulë. It was Melkor though, who suggested to Fëanor that he should make weapons, fomenting discord between Fëanor and his half-brother Fingolfin. Fëanor made a forge for fashioning weapons, and not even Melkor knew about that. It therefore seems reasonable that the Valar themselves did not know about the weapon-making until it had already been done. As to why the Valar did not actively seize all weapons, perhaps they knew it would have been pointless: the Noldor had the means to make more if they chose. x/d with Draugohtar
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God. |
10-31-2012, 09:04 AM | #4 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,034
|
There's another interesting aspect too, concerning the possibility of weapons on the Great March...
Quote:
|
|
10-31-2012, 09:11 AM | #5 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 435
|
I will also point out that the the Elves actaully would have use for weapons in Valinor, for hunting. It is implied that, unlike the Elves themselves, the animals of Valinor are not immortal, and I think it is said outright that hunting is still a common pastime for elves in the blessed lands. For example, Tuor's sword has an ivory shealth, and it is likey the sheath and sword were made for him while in Valnior. I might see how there would be a shortage of swords in Valinor amongst elves who were not preparing to leave for some reason (a sword is not exactly a hunting weapon), but things like bows and arrows and spears and such would be common day to day items, always available.
|
10-31-2012, 01:12 PM | #6 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
|
Quote:
Yet, Melkor apparently had no hand in their armament. Perhaps they had heard rumors of the Noldor's smithying, and decided to get weapons of their own in imitation, knowing nothing of the reasons for the Noldors' arming themselves.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God. |
|
10-31-2012, 01:33 PM | #7 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,458
|
Don't forget that many innocently designed domestic implements can be a weapon at need. In the UK there are laws about carrying offensive weapons and so you can get into a lot of trouble if you carry an obvious weapon without reason... but when I was young and first driving and before I had a mobile phone I happened to keep the wheel brace under the passenger seat rather than in the boot of the car and savvy women know that a bunch of keys or some coins and a lighter make a good knuckleduster and perfume sprayed in the eyes can be pretty effective - all items that it is perfectly reasonable for a lady to have about her person.
Few sailors will step aboard without a knife since you may have to cut rope to save a life. They built boats.. they would have lots of nasty stuff..
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
10-31-2012, 05:38 PM | #8 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 435
|
Quote:
|
|
11-01-2012, 08:57 AM | #9 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
|
Quote:
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God. |
|
11-01-2012, 10:37 AM | #10 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,322
|
Let's not forget that the Teleri lived for a long time in Beleriand after the Vanyar and Noldor had left, presumably sustaining themselves through hunting.
__________________
The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
11-01-2012, 10:37 AM | #11 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 435
|
I actually don't see any problem here. Hunting birds would actually be GREAT practice in archery, your basically working at shooting small moving targets. Get good at that (and in a society where part of your diet relyed on those birds, you probably would get pretty good, pretty fast, as a simple matter of survival). Compared to that, a Noldor warrior would actually be a pretty easy target, he's bigger, he's slower and he has one less plane to move around in. The armor might provide some trouble, but armor isn't really all that great and anti arrow work (especially since no qualified archer would be trying to directly shoot through it, he'd be doing the arc thing to add the force of gravity, or aiming for unarmored bits like the eyes (the elves are usually assumed on this forum to be on roughly anglo-saxon armor tech, so we're probably not talking about full plate with totally face covering helmets, so the eyes would be vulnerable.) And a good bowman can bring down something truly massive, remember Bard brought Smaug down with ONE arrow (yes he is shooting through a chink in Smaugs armor, but the arrow still has to get through layers of skin muscle fat possibly a rib etc. Smaug is HUGE by human standards. If they DID need to get through the armor, they probably would have gone to the spears/javelins. A well muscled man who is a good spear thrower would probably have little trouble, he'd be used to bringing down things like seals and deer which , while they don't wear armor are WAAY bigger than a person. And a person with an alatl is supposedly capable of throwing a spear with enough force it could bring down a mammoth (Alatls were used in Europe Neolithically, phasing out when the mammoths and such megafauna went extinct. In Valinor, where Oliphaunts still were present and comparable megafauna are still extant, they probably kept them.)
|
11-01-2012, 12:40 PM | #12 | ||
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
|
Quote:
Quote:
So for the Noldor and Teleri, hunting was tolerated, but Men were reviled for it. Very telling...
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God. |
||
11-01-2012, 02:45 PM | #13 | |
Dead Serious
|
Quote:
None of which is to suggest in any way that the Edain were anywhere as bad as the slaughter wreaked on the Great Plains bison, for example, but the Green-elves were certainly capable of distinguishing between the actions of their estranged kin and that of the Aftercomers. And, in any case, there is ample evidence that the Green-elves were not particularly close with the Noldor or Sindar--"tolerate" seems an appropriate term for their relationship, provided it still has some of the sense of "put up with."
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
|
|
11-01-2012, 06:21 PM | #14 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,411
|
Well, there is the factor that for them the kinslaying was a home game. They fought on the ships. The Teleri have no problem with being on a ship, but for the Noldor it's an awkward and unfamiliar place to fight. Also, seafaring men are used to the swaying (and there is some swaying even in the port), but it would be like an earthquake for the Noldor. I would not be surprised if they felt as unconfortable as Sam Gamgee in a boat.
__________________
You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
11-01-2012, 06:50 PM | #15 | ||
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God. |
||
11-01-2012, 07:20 PM | #16 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,411
|
Quote:
__________________
You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
|
11-01-2012, 07:21 PM | #17 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,509
|
Quote:
__________________
And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
|
11-01-2012, 08:30 PM | #18 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
|
Quote:
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God. |
|
11-02-2012, 09:44 AM | #19 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Lonely Isle
Posts: 706
|
The Valar's intervention
Aeglos, welcome to the Downs! You started a very interesting thread, and asked a good question:
And if the valar saw the elves making weapons why didnt they stop them, because there was no need for it, and could only be used to bad things like violence and murder. So what do you think? My view is that the Valar were content to let the Noldor govern themselves, and only intervened when things got out of hand, which they did in the case of Fëanor, who threatened violence and murder with a weapon he made. Under Morgoth's influence, as well as making weapons, Fëanor spoke out against the Valar. Fingolfin brought up this matter at a meeting before their father, Finwë, asking what he was going to go about Fëanor, pointing out that he (Finwë) was one of those who originally spoke before the Elves, urging that they go to Valinor, saying that if he was still of the same mind, he had at least two sons (Fingolfin and Finarfin) to support him. Fëanor turned up armed, accused Fingolfin of usurping his place, and threatened him with his sword. When Fingolfin left, Fëanor followed him, and again threatened him with his sword, this time saying that he might kill him if he usurped his place. 'See, half brother! This is sharper than thy tongue. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be the master of thralls'. Fingolfin left without saying anything in reply. I don't think anyone here would be surprised that the Valar then intervened in an incident where the King of the Noldor's eldest son turned up armed at a peaceful meeting, and twice threatened his brother with a sword, the second time implying that he might kill him. Also, Fëanor's language could be seen as particularly insulting, calling the Noldor 'thralls', i.e. slaves, implying that his people were slaves, presumably of the Valar. Even when it was found out that Melkor's influence was at the back of what happened, the Valar, rightly, said that Fëanor was still responsible for his actions and would be exiled. At least Fëanor didn't give the excuse of 'Melkor made me do it!' Last edited by Faramir Jones; 02-23-2014 at 06:24 AM. |
11-06-2012, 07:32 AM | #20 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,509
|
Thus the word sordid.
__________________
And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
09-16-2013, 05:53 AM | #21 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien
Posts: 462
|
Quote:
Weapons were taken up again in Aman after Melkor spread his lies among the Noldor and mentioned "the power that they gave to them that has them to defend his own" [MR, p. 276] The forges were put to work in the remaking of their old weapons that "were long unused, and lay in hoard as memorials of old days half-forgotten" [p. 277] Not only were weapons wielded but shields and armor, and different clans made certain weapons in secret from others, not revealing their own personal arsenals. Now later on, in the first slaying in Aman, there is a passage which again implies to me that the Eldar had skills in the craft of fighting as Finwë goes down in battle with Melkor and Fëanor believed ["had he been at Formenos, his strength would have availed more than to be slain also, as Morgoth had purposed" p. 294] if he were there he could have protected his father implying he was also a trained fighter. "We heard the sound of great blows struck. Out of the cloud we saw a sudden flame of fire. And then there was one piercing cry.... we came to the house. There we found the king slain at the door. His head was crushed as with a great mace of iron.... he had stood alone, defiant. That is plain; for his sword lay beside him, twisted and untempered as if by lightning-stroke."
__________________
"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
|
09-28-2013, 07:33 AM | #22 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 257
|
As a sort of side issue, the attitude towards weapons in public seems the same as in stereotypical medieval society. You have the 'right to bear arms', etc.
__________________
Head of the Fifth Order of the Istari Tenure: Fourth Age(Year 1) - Present Currently operating in Melbourne, Australia |
09-29-2013, 07:10 AM | #23 | |
Odinic Wanderer
|
Quote:
If so, then yes it seems like it was tolerated. (But I doubt that there was a "right to bear arms" in most medieval societies) Mind you that there is a constant war going on in Tolkien's work, stuff like that has a tendency to heighten peoples tolerance of public display of weapons ... |
|
09-29-2013, 07:47 AM | #24 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,037
|
Quote:
There was no war in Valinor though, and no obvious enemy from which Fëanor should have felt the need to arm himself against. The lies of Melkor induced Fëanor to see enemies even when they weren't there.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God. |
|
09-29-2013, 08:26 AM | #25 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
|
Quote:
So while the open wearing of weapons may have been relatively commonplace among Men in the Third Age it seemingly was not normal or actively sanctioned behaviour for the Eldar in Aman.
__________________
"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. |
|
09-29-2013, 08:42 AM | #26 | |
Odinic Wanderer
|
Quote:
My area of history is mostly Early Modern, so I am not clear on all the finer details in medieval times either. However I am fairly certain that it was at this time it became an exclusive privilege for the nobility (In Denmark) to bear arms openly... it was a symbol of status. Also in Danish society it was the whole justification for the privileges of the nobility was that they were also the armed forces, the defenders of the realm... so there was a whole lot of symbolism mixed in as well. It might have been allowed for common folk to have swords in the early medieval period, but I doubt it would have been a general tendency, as swords cost silly money... A regular person probably wouldn't have been able to afford more than an axe. Anyways... Maybe not, but the point is still valid. Since before the first age, elves were fighting a bitter war, A war that even had a spin-off, with Sauron cast as the main villain. Granted sometimes there was peace, or at least not open conflict, but it still lasted thousands of years. So yeah, in a world that doesn't seem to have an exclusive warrior class, that would probably result in armed people being a relatively common sight. |
|
09-29-2013, 01:28 PM | #27 |
shadow of a doubt
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
Posts: 1,125
|
I don't think the main issue here is that the newcomers hunted and cut down trees in general but rather that they did it in Ossirand, the land of the Green Elves. They were unwanted intruders and thus unwelcome. Naturally it would add fuel to the fire if the Edain also were less in harmony with nature than the Green Elves.
__________________
"You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan |
09-29-2013, 03:12 PM | #28 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 479
|
Quote:
According to “The Annals of Aman” in Morgoth’s Ring the final war between Morgoth and the Valar began in the year 1090 and ended with Morgoth’s imprisonment in the year 1100. Thus according to this account the war lasted only ten Valian years, about a hundred years of the Sun, not even close to one thousand years. Or are you thinking of the later war which the Noldor and Sindar fought against Morgoth? That war was fought after the period that this thread is discussing. I don’t see that your point is valid. |
|
09-29-2013, 04:47 PM | #29 | |
Odinic Wanderer
|
Quote:
Sorry, I lost focus there. I could have sworn that Rhod talked about attitudes to weapon in M-E in general. Expanding the discussion from just Valinor to a more overarching level. . . but going back I can see that this was not the case. This happens to me every now and then: Though normally I don't misunderstand/misread the posts, rather I tend too misremember what people have said, and then go slightly off-topic. My apologies. |
|
|
|