Werewolves, Vampires and other creatures?

[TheLostPilgrim]

In The Silmarillion, we have Werewolves, Vampires, and other more "High Fantasy" creatures working as the beasts of Morgoth and later Sauron....But what about in the time of the Lord of the Rings? Did Werewolves and Vampires still exist in Sauron's armies, and we were just not told of them?

Also, if Smaug had not been killed years before, would he have fought for Sauron--or would Smaug have perhaps acted as his own agent, seeking power for himself and wrecking havoc in his own way--basically acting as an independent yet also fearsome power?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

In The Silmarillion, we have Werewolves, Vampires, and other more "High Fantasy" creatures working as the beasts of Morgoth and later Sauron....But what about in the time of the Lord of the Rings? Did Werewolves and Vampires still exist in Sauron's armies, and we were just not told of them?

That sort of creature could have been among the "older, fouler things than Orcs" that Gandalf mentioned, out of sight and knowledge for the majority of Middle-earth's people. Sauron's forces were numerous enough, I think, to have included such servants without their being generally known.

For werewolves, we have the Wargs as a close approximation (apparently hyper-aware wolves actively serving Sauron).

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

Also, if Smaug had not been killed years before, would he have fought for Sauron--or would Smaug have perhaps acted as his own agent, seeking power for himself and wrecking havoc in his own way--basically acting as an independent yet also fearsome power?

Gandalf seems to have thought Smaug would have acted for Sauron, though whether he would have done so willingly is up in the air. In fact, that was given in Unfinished Tales as one of Gandalf's prime motives in helping Thorin retake Erebor.

"The dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. Often I said to myself: 'I must find some means of dealing with Smaug.'"

The Quest of Erebor

Used implies possible underhandedness on Sauron's part, though I think it likely Smaug would have been amenable to placing himself at Sauron's service, especially given the promise of slaughter and plunder thereafter.

[Mithalwen]

The fact that the bodies of the wolves/ wargs that the fellowship slew in Hollin disappeared is an indicator that they are not just evil creatures.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Gandalf seems to have thought Smaug would have acted for Sauron, though whether he would have done so willingly is up in the air. In fact, that was given in Unfinished Tales as one of Gandalf's prime motives in helping Thorin retake Erebor.

It may be just your wording (if so, my apologies in advance) but I think Gandalf's statement was nuanced a bit differently when he said, in UT, "The dragon, Sauron might use with terrible effect."
"Would have acted for Sauron" implies, to me, that Smaug would have been concious of acting to aid Sauron (whether willingly or not). From Gandalf's word choice, there is an additional possibility that Sauron might manage to manipulate Smaug to actions that aid him without Smaug even realizing (or caring) that he is doing so.

'Course, if by "acted for Sauron" you merely meant "acted in ways that happened to benefit Sauron" (as opposed to "acted conciously for the benefit of Sauron") then I'd agree with you, but the wording "seemed" to not include unintentional (even unknowing) support as a result of being manipulated.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

It may be just your wording (if so, my apologies in advance) but I think Gandalf's statement was nuanced a bit differently when he said, in UT, "The dragon, Sauron might use with terrible effect."

There is no comma at that place in the original quote.

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

"Would have acted for Sauron" implies, to me, that Smaug would have been concious of acting to aid Sauron (whether willingly or not). From Gandalf's word choice, there is an additional possibility that Sauron might manage to manipulate Smaug to actions that aid him without Smaug even realizing (or caring) that he is doing so.

I think either scenario is possible, but as I said, it doesn't seem too much of a stretch that Smaug would have willingly aided Sauron, with some appropriate motivation especially.

If that failed, Sauron was surely capable of bringing about some circumstance that would have galvanized an unaware Smaug to destructive action against the West or its allies.

[Galadriel55]

When I first saw the title I thought it was this thread.


I agree that Smaug probably would have unconsciously aided Sauron. He would have a role kind of like Shelob's - except that he most likely wouldn't know about what service he's doing at all. But even if he did, he would still rain destruction for his own sake and not give two cents of his treasure for Sauron's sake.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

There is no comma at that place in the original quote.

Quite true! (as I see now that I am home with my books) I was quoting from memory -- actually got closer to the quote than I expected (:-)