Sewers/toilets in middle earth?

[Mumriken]

It just recently occured to me, how exactly did elves and men...and dwarves get rid of their waste? Like for example in a city like minas tirith or Rohan. Where did all the waste go? I don't think they were as sophisticated as to be able to create flushing toilets like they used back in greece could they? Also I'm not aware of elven anatomy but looking at the movies elves seem less affected by alcohol. Is it possible that elves generate less waste than men and therefore maybe aren't in need of any sewers etc in their forests? The elves and men of minas tirith seem so clean, yet it must have smelt horrible with what? 10 000 people around...during the dark ages in europe getting rid of waste was a big problem and contributed to the misery in the form of rats spreading diseases. I'm sure some of you have dwelt on this before and could enlighten me.

[Galadriel55]

My solution is... Tolkien was above such mundane things.

When I was... 5? 6? ans my mother read LOTR to me, one of the main questions that bothered me was how come the book follows the life of the Fellowship for days on end and it doesn't say that they went to the bathroom or took a nap or had a snack even once! Did they walk non-stop for all thoe days without going to the bathroom?! ...This always made me laugh ever since I "got" it. And your question made me think of that.

[Mumriken]

I'm not talking about the fellowship or individual people LOL...I'm talking about all the cities with tons of people. Like if you look at Europe ALL big cities are close to water. Mnas Tirith and Rohan are in the middle of nowhere. Lothlorien is in the middle of a forest. I don't think this is much more mundane than talking about art in middle earth or catapults or whatever. Fact is that if people in middle earth had and used their butts. The living conditions in the forests and in places like Minas Tirith must have been horrible. Yet in the movies it all looks so clean...did you know that perfume was used mainly by women during the 18th century to hide their atrocious stench. People today take for granted showers and toilets, but 500 years ago almost nobody had a toilet. If Tolkien never thought of this it's a big flaw in his fictional world. The reason the dark ages were so dark was because of the lack of ways to get rid of waste. The cities smelt of ****...I guess most elven, men and dwarf cities did too

[Lollipop010900]

Well, maybe they DIDNT have... ways to get rid of 'waste' but it is hard to smell through a television screen and maybe they just didn't bother to show all that sort of stuff in the movies and there was no reason to mention it in the books.

[Mithalwen]

As it happens I am just reading a book on the Middle Ages which offers various solutions which I will type up if still needed by the time I get my home computer working again. However LOTR is hardly alone in not mentioning it .. I don't know that we lose much by not knowing that Gandalf was the Middle Earth equivalent of "Dad's Army" 's Private Godfrey.

[blantyr]

It's not just Tolkien and Middle Earth where these questions are not talked about. In 1863, 150,000 plus people got together in Gettysburg Pennsylvania, one of many such meeting held in this time frame. While waste disposal was surely a problem, the Civil War academics have been able to find no records to speak of saying how it was handled.

It is well established, though, that more soldiers died of disease in the Civil war than enemy action. That's been true historically in all but the most recent conflicts.

Not that Tolkien had to push that particular theme. He had enough themes going.

[Lalwendë]

Social history is one of my 'things', and I know a little about toilets

Firstly, a fact you may be interested in is that even 'civilised' people often had appalling habits. The great palace of Versailles was apparently so filthy that women's gowns would be stained in excreta if they didn't hold them up while walking along the passageways. Louis XIV had to ask that residents clean the faeces out of the corridors once a week.

However, other people were often very clean. It seems that if people had the will, they could find the way. Every British castle has a 'garderobe' (it is compulsory to pose for a photo while sitting on one) which would empty into either moat or cesspit. And most old homes still have a cesspit hidden somewhere - the house I grew up in had one right up to the mid 1980s, when it overflowed, and that was when we finally got connected to the mains sewers. Earth or compost toilets are common for those who seek to be green. You simply use one until full, seal it for a year, then use what's left as compost. And back in the 1800s one of the jobs my ancestors who lived on the canal boats did was carry vegetables from the countryside into Liverpool and carry the 'nightsoil' back out again, in order to make the fields grow more veg.

Anyway. This all shows there were many and various ways of dealing with waste should they have wished to do so and not live like they did in Versailles. So no doubt the good folks of Middle-earth knew how to handle such things and it simply wasn't an issue that needed describing!

[davem]

Its interesting to consider the reality of sanitation in the Medieval world. There's an account of one individual, a Roger the Raker, given in 'Life on the Middle Ages' by Martyn Whitock.

Faced with the need to remove household toilet waste, some turned to piping it into the unused cellars of unwary neighbours.....More often householders dug cesspools in their yards & constructed latrines over them. One such enterprising Londoner was Roger 'the Raker'. Unfortunately, over the years this pit filled to capacity & rotted the floorboards. When Roger eventually plunged through these floorboards & drowned in his own accumulated excrement, it raised questions not only about the quality of London carpentry but also about the way in which health & well-being in the Middle-ages were affected by the sanitation of the time.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Given Roman sophisticaton with plumbing and delivery of fresh water,
I don't see the problem of Numenorean citties handling this problem.
And there is the placing of most Middle-earth cities by rivers and/or
oceans. Gondor, Rivendell, Esgaroth, etc.
And there's the spreadout nature of less urban polities, like
Rohan and the Shire.

Now with ents I don't think disposal isues are an especial problem.
Reuse and recycle.

[Mithalwen]

The book I am reading is called the Time Traveller's Guide to medieaval england with lots of stuff about Gongfermours, privies communal latrines and the like but also the gen the King of the day had hot and cold running water - so I don't see that it is impossible that Elrond had plumbing!

Minas Tirith was surrounded by the Pelennor Fields which was farm land when it wasn't a battle field. Fertiliser one obvious use as well as use in cloth fulling and leather tanning. As well as the likes of Earth closets, they may have ha.d a reed bed system (bet the Lorien and Mirkwood elves could have them) which is superbly efficient and transforms raw waste into pure water.

There is a splendid Garderobe in the Constable's house in Christchurch near the Priory. It overhangs the mill stream.

[Lalwendë]

Just had a quick look at the entry on Tanning on Wikipedia and both urine and dung were used in the process of tanning leather.

Once the hair was removed, the tanners would bate the material by pounding dung into the skin or soaking the skin in a solution of animal brains. Among the kinds of dung commonly used were that of dogs or pigeons. Sometimes the dung was mixed with water in a large vat, and the prepared skins were kneaded in the dung water until they became supple, but not too soft. The ancient tanner might use his bare feet to knead the skins in the dung water, and the kneading could last two or three hours.

It was this combination of urine, animal feces and decaying flesh that made ancient tanneries so odiferous.[citation needed]

Children employed as dung gatherers were a common sight in ancient cities. Also common were "****-pots" located on street corners, where human urine could be collected for use in tanneries or by washerwomen. In some variations of the process, cedar oil, alum or tannin were applied to the skin as a tanning agent. As the skin was stretched, it would lose moisture and absorb the agent.

Ew.

Given that leather must have been a product in very high demand in Middle-earth ( for clothing, shoes, saddlery and of course armour), there must have been lots of tanneries (and lots of cows and meat) so it makes you wonder were there urine collectors in Minas Tirith etc.

Elves used lots of leather, too. It alters your image of them somewhat to imagine them collecting urine and dung and them stomping around in vats of it for hours on end.

[Mumriken]

Elves used lots of leather, too. It alters your image of them somewhat to imagine them collecting urine and dung and them stomping around in vats of it for hours on end.

Hahaha, yeah also I don't know but I don't think elves had that many farm animals in their forests. Many of them were probably vegetarians or survived on herbs and different plants. (Farmers of the forests) So they probably used their own dung for tanning fancy elven leatherwear. So there must have been some elf that had to stomp around in dung all day, bet he would find that boring after 500 or so years. xD

[Mithalwen]

I wonder if the Elvish "teflon" still worked .. or if they had anyone like the Reddleman in The Return of hte Natives to frighten the elflings with.

[Alcidas]

For the elves who lived in the woods, there would have been little or no problems with sanitation. There still are tribes that live in the rainforest today and activities like defecation and urination can be carried out in a forest leaving little or no trace.

With regards to the cities, it would be wrong to extrapolate from what we know about medieval Europe to a fantasy/medieval setting. In the medieval Islamic world, cities were supposed to have had "intricate systems of sanitation, public baths and fresh-water supplies"

http://www.laphamsquarterly.org/essa...e.php?page=all

I suppose we could assume that cities like Minas Tirith may have had similar systems of sanitation? Of course they would not have been as clean as our own modern cities, but maybe not as bad as the European cities that were devastated by the plague...

[MCRmyGirl4eva]

Latrines. It has ALWAYS, since ancient Egypt, been a popular punishment to have criminals dig latrines during their incarcerations. They were usually public, and after the latrine was full, they would benefit from the fact that human waste contains nutrients by topping it off with soil, and, come spring, use the nutrients to grow food. Gross? Yes. True? yes.

Likely the solution? Yes.

[Rumil]

If you'll indulge me, I'd like to copy a rather old post of mine here from this threadhttp://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...ghlight=toilet . Ignore the last sentence, was referring to Downsian controversies of the time,

Khazad Khazi

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ah, at last a thread that gets down to the nitty gritty, the real experience of Middle Earth living, no more shall Downers blithely cry 'I would love to move to Rivendell' without a caveat regarding Elrond's plumbing arrangements.

As Farrar rightly points out, little attention has been given by Tolkien or his commentators to such an important aspect of everyday Middle Earth life. Few mentions occur in the legendarium, and those are ambiguous or tangential, but it must be here that we begin our fundamental examination. We must also draw on the records of historically analagous civilizations for much of our investigation, but must be wary of pitfalls. Assumptions regarding flushing mechanisms, ballcocks and U-bends may land us in deep and dangerous water. Finally I would like to indulge in further speculation involving the origin of Gandalf's fireworks and the infamous blasting fires of Orthanc and highlight my admiration for Tolkien's 'unexplored vistas', which are as significant in this respect as in many others.

To begin, we have the canonical occurence of a 'bathroom' at Bag End, however, combined with historical usage and, of course, the bath incident at Crickhollow, doubt is cast upon the utility of such a term in our quest. It is Crickhollow that provides the clue, who indeed can forget the cry of

Quote:



Sing Hey! for a bath at the end of the day

which immediately brings visions of the three baths and the room swimming with 'water hot' following Pippin's antics. This, we must conclude, is what is meant by 'bathroom' in Shire terms, merely a room containing one or more baths. To this day it is unusual for older houses in Britain to have a toilet in the same room as the bath, as such a practice was considered both unseemly and unhealthy in early Victorian times, at least until the great strides forward made by that giant of the porcelain facility, Thomas Crapper, whose name will undoubtedly resonate down the years.

Therefore we must look to history for information, lest our search bog down completely. The Shire was primarily a rural area, without the population density and concomitant pressures associated with city life. In many rural areas sanitation consisted of a hole in the ground, within an associated outhouse, often brick-built, located at some distance from the main dwelling. We know that hobbits, although preferring to live in holes or 'smials', were anciently accustomed to constructing free-standing sheds and workshops, so this seems the most likely solution for the Shire. There is a problem with the lack of convenience of this system at night, during inclement weather, or illness, and traditionally the gozunder, or po, was the answer to such difficulties.

It is with towns and cities that the stickier problem is faced. One can debate the relative technological sophistication of Minas Tirth or Edoras, so it becomes unclear exactly what sort of systems were in use. In the most unsophisticated towns of the past waste was simply dumped into the street and disposed of via street cleaners or open sewers. This was option much used in medieval and indeed renaissance times, especially in castles where the effluvium discharged into the moat from rooms equipped with garderobes, where the clothes of the nobility were kept such that the attendant ammoniacal vapour deterred moths. While such practices continued late into European history, witness, for example the lucky escape from the defenestration of Prague, it is, however, difficult to tally such practices with the conventional gleaming white image of Minas Tirith.

A better solution was the use of privies, as in the countryside, but with the addition of a night-soil service, an unfortunate person paid to clean and empty the privy or septic tank. Finally we have the running water option, toilets have been with us since at least 2500 BC, notably in the cities of ancient India, China, Egypt and Persia. These generally consisted of a seat of ease above a continually-flowing open water channel, and could even be communal as is shown by extant Roman military installations at Hadrian's Wall and many other locations. We may have a hint that Edoras reached this level of hygenic sophistication -

Quote:



Beside the way in a stone channel a stream of clear water flowed, sparkling and chattering.

It could well have provided, via side channels, the necessary flow. In that case one would imagine that Minas Tirth had superior facilities, probably encompassing an entirely piped water supply, though it would be fruitless to speculate on the possible use of porcelain thrones, U-bends and the like.

The varied cultures of Middle Earth also must show different levels of toiletry sophistication. The Lakemen were uniquely situated above a suitable medium for diluting their effluvia. The dwarves could no doubt make use of long drops and crevasses should they need, but a clue is given in Gloin's desciption of the progress made at Erebor in the provision of underground canals, probably suitable for quite sophisticated arrangements. The dark side of toiletry behaviour also rears its ugly head, orcs often refer to their enemies, and each other, as 'filth'. Tolkien admitted to toning down orcish expletives, but the meaning permeates through nonetheless. Shelob is a case of the dreadful depths to which Sauron's servants and allies could fall. Her abode was noisome and reeking from the accumulated filth of her age-long occupation, clearly hygiene was not an issue for such a depraved creature.

Having surveyed the likely facilities, some further strand of enquiry suggests itself. Gunpowder was originally made form charcoal, sulphur and saltpetre, saltpetre of course being rich in the nitrates necessary to accelerate the explosion and being mostly derived from human and animal wastes. In the days of black powder the job of night soil man became profitable with supply of saltpetre to the armaments industry, truly a case of 'where there's muck there's brass'. Was this how Gandalf and Saruman found the ingredients for their rockets and blasting charges?

In the end, of course Tolkien teases our thirst for further detail but leaves the specifics vague. Middle Earth hygiene, like the Blue Wizards and Balrog wings must therefore belong to the realm of supposition and speculation. Who indeed can envisage the facilities of wondrous Gondolin or those employed by fair lady Galadriel? The author does, however, wonder if there is any further information in the Letters or indeed if there is any relevant Biblical applicabilty, even allegory, pertaining to this problem but leaves such undertakings, and the attendant problems of canonicity, to the pens of those more expert than he.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

In addition to the general use of Roman-type plumbing I briefly
alluded to, consider the placing of some Middle-earth cities on
geographical features conducive to moving effluvia. Minas Tirith
and Minas Morgol on the lower sides of mountains, with gravity
assisted streams to carry materials to nearby Anduin and the ocean.
Even Edoras has a middling stream going through the town/citadel
to the Anduin. Ditto Lorien (and anyway, you'd think giant trees
would be in need of many nutrients---of course, how elves living
near treetops (like Galadriel and hubby disposed of stuff, well, it
does bring them "down to earth" a bit, as it were).

Which brings up the issue of Gondolin. They had to have a pretty sophisticated
system to dispose of materiel out of the plain and towards Sirion, SO
WHY DIDN'T THEY USE IT TO ESCAPE. Come on, couldn't have been
that much worse then going through a London Sewer.

Oh, and the green leaf above is an air freshener.

[leapofberen]

Despite allusions to a washroom/bathroom at the Prancing Pony in the Fellowship and perhaps some other places I cannot think of at the moment, I would think that pondering too much about these things would take away the bliss of Tolkien's story. I mean, we KNOW it is there...especially among Men and Hobbits. Elves? Who can say? They ate otherworldly food (lembas) given to them by the gods, healed quickly, were generally mightier and hardier and wiser than the other races, so who is to say Elves went to the bathroom like mortal Men?

Not that exposing Middle Earth's earthiness would necessarily take away, (hobbits are particularly anyhow) but dwelling on these things would certainly take away from the high tone that Tolkien sets ("...and then Frodo slipped away to use the toilet. Now a hobbit toilet is quite like ours is today...") Well, MAYBE...if it was describing something ABOUT the toilet that was relevant to Hobbitdom...not just for the sake of saying , "By the way, Hobbits poop too and here is where it goes to in the Shire..." Not for the sake of satisfying (I apologize ahead of time) some of our more baser and rational curiosities.

Tolkien does delve into such things as the intimate relations of Elves in other writings, and this is almost too much (in my small opinion); it comes close to bringing Elves, particularly Elves, down to a human level when they are meant to be representative of humanity before a Fall; as such, higher beings. Allusions leading us to dwell otherwise, even briefly, would certainly be in the realm of Potty: of describing in too much detail, bathroom, sewer, and waste. By implication, certainly it was THERE in many places...most certainly I could imagine it with Hobbits, Dwarves... But even alluding to one of the Eldar dropping a load and then describing where it goes? There is some rule that staunchly disallows this on the tip of my tongue, yet I cannot think of what it is called at the moment...we all have wondered such things as readers though.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I've read very few books of any kind that went into the sewerage arrangements in any sort of detail. Apart from Burrahobbit's blog, the only example I can think of is that of the journals of Jean Hérouard, personal physician to Louis XIII of France, in which - inter alia - His Majesty's bowel movements are faithfully recorded. I don't recall seeing that particular work on a best seller list, but I may simply not have been paying attention. I contend that this is no coincidence, since most people grow out of their infantile interest in excreta by the time they leave primary school, rapidly relegating the process to the same category as breathing or blinking: things which are parts of everyday life, but not worthy of note unless they betray emotion. I suppose it's possible that the Mouth of Sauron needed a change of underwear after returning from his parley with Gandalf, Aragorn et al, but his fear was adequately expressed in other ways, so there was no need to mention it.

As a subject to use in mockery of Tolkien discussion fora, of course, this one is ideal, since it can be used to demonstrate that we'll devote thousands of words to discussing night soil. If I were irretrievably idiotic and juvenile, this is the topic that I would probably use to make that point.

[Morthoron]

Do you think the Dwarves sent their effluvia into the bowels of the earth? After all, they did refer to Khazad-dum as "Moria", didn't they?

Ummm...sorry. Just exercising my "infantile interest in excreta" (nice alliteration, by the way).

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Ummm...sorry. Just exercising my "infantile interest in excreta" (nice alliteration, by the way).

It still might be more fertile a discussion than balrog wings...

[Inziladun]

You know, this to me is just one of those "TMI" topics that I don't like associating with Middle-earth.
After all, if Minas Tirith followed 14th Century practice, they'd likely have been channeling their effluent into the Anduin. Not an image Tolkien would have been likely envisaging.

Since we're accepting talking trees, undead wraiths, and spiders that live for thousands of years, I can deal with just going with the idea that bodily waste in Arda just magically disappears, leaving a "sweet scent of flowers".

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Since we're accepting talking trees, undead wraiths, and spiders that live for thousands of years, I can deal with just going with the idea that bodily waste in Arda just magically disappears, leaving a "sweet scent of flowers".

Maybe the elves work that way. Can't see it that way for the Orcs. Not sure we want to work our way through Treebeard's long list assigning scents...

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by blantyr

Maybe the elves work that way.

Well, we all know the Elves were too noble to fart. I can't imagine Turgon committing a gaseous indiscretion on his throne in Gondolin. Now, the Hobbits, on the other hand, I can imagine them having actual contests in the Green Dragon. After all, they do refer to specific areas of The Shire as "Fartings".

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

You know, this to me is just one of those "TMI" topics that I don't like associating with Middle-earth.
After all, if Minas Tirith followed 14th Century practice, they'd likely have been channeling their effluent into the Anduin. Not an image Tolkien would have been likely envisaging.

You got me thinking that those Orcs and Men in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields who were driven into the Anduin suffered a particularly smelly fate...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

You got me thinking that those Orcs and Men in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields who were driven into the Anduin suffered a particularly smelly fate...

That was when they really became "maggot-folk of Mordor".

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

You got me thinking that those Orcs and Men in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields who were driven into the Anduin suffered a particularly smelly fate...

The Men of Gondor, flushed with pride, drove the Orcs from their trenches.

[Pervinca Took]

I always thought the clearest reference to such things in the book was Sam's "It smells like ... well, I wouldn't like to say. Some beastly hole of the orcs, I'll reckon, with a hundred years of their filth in it."

[Juicy-Sweet]

I imagine the Elves being quite adverse to the smell of faeces, just doesnt seem right for them, so they must have invented plumbing as one of the first things.

For the humans, I imagine them being like "real humans" - Gondor probably quite clean, owing to the Elven influence.

I imagine Rohan and Bree as quite filthy, like historic Medieval cities.

The plumbing of Barad-Dur YEECH no wonder it was called the Black Tower