Does Saruman lose his ability to use magic when his staff is broken?

[Ghanberryghan]

In The Lord of the Rings I had a hard time distinguishing between 'magic' and 'power'. I normally thought that Saruman didn't because he still had his voice which was more "powerful than rhetoric" - implying that his voice is what gave strength to his speech rather than his choic of words.

And when Gandalf breaks Saruman's staff he later goes on to say: "He has power still whilst in Orthanc, I think, to resist the nazgul. He may try to trap it, or slay the steed it rides upon." Was he implying Saruman can still use magic?
But at the same time, when in the Shire, Frodo tells the other hobbits that Saruman has lost all power save his voice.

[Inziladun]

The breaking of Saruman's staff was largely a symbolic measure, stripping Saruman of all "authority" to act in Middle-earth given to him by his superiors in the Blessed Realm. With the loss of that authority though, I believe his power to affect the physical world in "magical" ways was indeed at least seriously curtailed.

I think the key to Gandalf's words is in the phrase "in Orthanc". That tower was too strong for even the Ents to break or enter, so Saruman could have held out against the Nazgûl there at least temporarily (as long as he had food and water).

[Galadriel55]

As Zil said. Breaking the staff meant breaking Saruman's authority. He still had his physical power (Orthanc), and some of his innate power (his voice, his cunning) - but the latter was deteriorating for quite some time, so he failed to execute his power over Gandalf, Theoden, etc. His voice only convinced those with weaker or more trusting minds, and even then not all.

[blantyr]

My feeling is that wizard's staves, much like the rings, amplified the power of the user. Most enchanted items, such as blades, boats, jewels that give off light, balls that let one see far away and cloaks that make one harder to see, each had specific functions. The staves and rings seemed much more general purpose tools.

Thus, I would think breaking Saruman's staff was a blow to his power, but it would be hard to point at this specific ability or that and say what was lost.

[Aragrax]

Saruman was implied to have no real "magical" power during the War of the Ring. He had turned against the light, so no true power came from above to him. However. . .

He was a master of science, a thing generally unloved by JRRT, and that power he had in spades: propaganda, industrialization, eugenics, explosives (and, apparently, given his tailoring, optics).

He even made a ring for himself, and while the making of rings was generally presented as the binding of things into a controlled state, those things already existed. Such was the way of evil in Tolkien's world; to twist the created into un-beautiful forms for some lesser, selfish purpose. The power of creation, and thus of light and true "magic" (tho JRRT preferred other words for such) was lost to him forever, long before his staff was shivered. Note that the storm on Caradhras was not of his making, and he had no telekinetic ability either; these were inventions of PJ.

[Draugohtar]

I think it's important to state that the Istari are embodied Maiar, and thus independently powerful beings ie independent of whatever allegiance they choose to adopt.

Gandalf is still potent enough to slay the Balrog with a broken staff.

Rather the staffs appear to be badges of office, channels of power perhaps, but not particularly puissant gifts of the Valar. Galadriel furnishes Gandalf with his new staff post his return as Gandalf the White. Mightiest of the elves remaining in Middle Earth she may be, but I doubt her crafts match those of the Valar.

I think, rather, that Saruman is corrupted and spent as a force, further I would speculate that via the Palantir and his ensarement by Sauron, his own power became very much tied to that of Sauron and the one ring.

Gandalf, also, on their reunion is made significantly more powerful than he, effectively negating everything but his voice.

Thus I see Saruman as being in a steady decline of his own causing, the loss of his staff only symbolic of his casting out. His corruption and allegiance to Sauron reduce him, and once the one ring is destroyed, he is further cripped to his 'Sharkey' status.

[Mumriken]

I think the staffs were given to the istari as a way for them to channel some of their inner power. Remember they weren't allowed to use their full power output against Sauron. The staffs were probably created to let them use some of that power. Without them they'd be trapped in mortal flesh with their power sealed away much like the eagles. So by breaking Saruman's staff Gandalf broke the little access Saruman had to his maia power.

[Draugohtar]

I just feel it's difficult to justify Galadriel being able to furnish Gandalf reborn with a staff if the staffs had such a potent nature.

Mightiest of the elves left in Middle Earth she may be, but would she really be able to replicate a gift of the Valar intended to modify the power of a Maia?

[Inziladun]

See here for a good discussion of wizards and staffs.

[Sarumian]

Answering the question, I tend to agree that breaking the staff was an act of symbolic significance. I believe, most of Saruman's power was lost with the destruction of his army. We know that in Tolkien's universe one spends his or her personal spiritual power on such things as casting spells, keeping supernatural control over someone else; it can be invested into an artefact as it was the case with The Ring. Sometimes power expenditure leads to devastation and one needs some time to "recharge", as Gandalf after his struggle against the Balrog at the Camber of Mazarbul. In some situations it could take ages, as for Sauron after he'd lost his Ring. If I can remember it right, Melkor's power was mostly exhausted when he lost his armies in the War of Wrath. I think similar thing happened to Saruman. His evil ways contributed to his weakening as an evil spirit is self-destructive and slowly looses the ability to regenerate. Thus Saruman hasn't lost his knowledge of magic but became incapable of using it.

[Rhod the Red]

I'd say all his spells, apart from his magical voice, the answer being yes.

We don't read anything about what happened to his Ring of Power. I imagine it's powers were eliminated with the breaking of the staff.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Draugohtar

I just feel it's difficult to justify Galadriel being able to furnish Gandalf reborn with a staff if the staffs had such a potent nature.

Mightiest of the elves left in Middle Earth she may be, but would she really be able to replicate a gift of the Valar intended to modify the power of a Maia?

Galadriel may have provided the physical wood needed to fashion the staff, but why is she necessarily the source of its real power? If the staffs were primarily symbols of authority, and perhaps secondarily a means of focusing the innate "divine" abilities of the Istari, the same Authority that sent Gandalf back to Middle-earth would have been easily capable of making his staff exactly what he needed.

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

We don't read anything about what happened to his Ring of Power. I imagine it's powers were eliminated with the breaking of the staff.

I've always thought that ring to have been Saruman's little attempt to fashion his own Ring of Power rather then one of the "lesser" rings made by the Noldor of Eregion.
If the source of its power (if indeed it had any) was from Saruman, then it seems logical that the ring would lose power in proportion to Saruman's loss.
If the ring was of another make, then Saruman's state should have had no effect on it.

On another note: 5000 posts! And it only took me about 11 years and nine months to get there.

[Aragrax]

Originally Posted by Draugohtar

I think it's important to state that the Istari are embodied Maiar, and thus independently powerful beings ie independent of whatever allegiance they choose to adopt.

Gandalf is still potent enough to slay the Balrog with a broken staff.

1st off, apologies for the late reply. Life has been odd of late.

Now then. .

It is strongly implied that Gandalf slew the balrog with Glamdring ("ever I hewed him") and with main physical force ("threw him down"), but not with "magic" (JRRT disliked using the word "magic" for what subcreators did, incidentally, probably due to his Catholic focus).

While it is possibly implied that both participants in the battle flew above the cloud layer ("above the mists of the world"), it could just be that they were high up enough on the mountain to be above the clouds. If, as some claim, the balrog had wings to fly (tho my impression is they had shadows which possibly may have served them for fleetness, but not actual wings) it may have returned to grappling Gandalf ("clutched me") while flying, so lifted him (tho I think this unlikely).

Wearing Narya may also have been a factor in the battle; it likely granted Gandalf courage and fighting spirit, and may have been a factor in surviving the Balrog's fire for so long.

That Gandalf could throw the Balrog down does suggest that he was allowed to flex his Maiar muscles in the fight, but this seems more a matter of his simply being allowed to exercise his own physical prowess, which would have been considerable (balrogs were really just Maiar themselves, after all). Again, the wording is always of physical battle (hewed, clutched, threw down). It is perfectly reasonable to assume an Istar would at least be allowed to physically defend himself vs. his equal!

Originally Posted by Draugohtar

Rather the staffs appear to be badges of office, channels of power perhaps, but not particularly puissant gifts of the Valar. Galadriel furnishes Gandalf with his new staff post his return as Gandalf the White. Mightiest of the elves remaining in Middle Earth she may be, but I doubt her crafts match those of the Valar.

I see strong evidence of the original staves being direct tools for regulating the sanctioned, "by the book" use of power, without which direct influence was either impossible, or at least frowned upon.

The thread mentioned by Inziladun earlier speculates that the Istar's essence may have been partly placed in the staff. An earlier idea of mine was that the staff is the mortal anchor of the Maiar; as they are bound to service, from which they derive at least a portion of their authority, the staff is thus both the symbol and vessel of the enacting of that authority, and so they can only act via the staff except in terms of personal physical activity. This is, of course, speculation.

This might be something Saruman tried to literally "circumvent" by fashioning a ring of his own and placing his power into it to escape the reliance on the staff and the service it required, so to focus on personal temporal goals (rings being related to binding temporal things), goals which led to his dispersment and dissolution. Again, however: conjecture.

Gandalf the Grey always worked his power via the staff. Always. Even though other "components" were oft needed, the staff was involved in a direct manner that was the source of animus. Gandalf the White was much less restrained, so it is likely that his staff (procured within the ringed boundaries of Arda? I do not recall this part) was more symbolic, as he might have been returned with a new, more direct and permissible/flexible mandate than he had previously been given. He thus was possibly not returned with a staff ("naked for a time"), but instead, without as much need of one. He may, in fact, have been somewhat elevated in ability after his sacrifice, most likely due to that same selfless act.

Some (in fact many) of Gandalf's abilities might actually be from Narya, of course, as he usually used some form of fire in direct conflicts but, even then, Gandalf the Grey always focused these through his staff.

Note that Wormtongue, Saruman's trained agent, was VERY keen to separate Gandalf from his staff, and implied that Gandalf's actions in Meduseld were only possible because of it! For his part in that incident, Gandalf (and this was even Gandalf the White) was clearly focused on keeping the ol' stick handy, and was even willing to do a disservice to a man of true service, Hama, to do so!

Saruman, on the other hand, was apparently not big on using his staff. At all. He used: his voice; the military power that voice, alliance, and eugenics, brought him; the fastness of Isengard (a place made by men); bombs; the ring he crafted (of unknown potency and nature); and even his robes. These all were power he showed. What of his staff in all this? Already unused, from what I recall; nothing Saruman did within our sight was direct power! It was his ring (likely due to its hitherto-unforseen existence and implied menace), which Gandalf noted in "The Council of Elrond"; not a word about his staff was spoken. Doubtless he had it (its absence would be notable) but it was not a focus.

Originally Posted by Draugohtar

I think, rather, that Saruman is corrupted and spent as a force, further I would speculate that via the Palantir and his ensarement by Sauron, his own power became very much tied to that of Sauron and the one ring.

Corrupt indeed, but this brings us back to the fact that Saruman's "power", during the course of LotR, was always represented as arising from propaganda/verbal manipulations, science, construction, and military might. He already (by the time of LotR) lacked the more direct "magical" abilites we see Gandalf exhibit.

What little power Saruman gained from Sauron was along the lines of military support, not magic: troops, and the freedom to act without restraint as long as he did not come into opposition with Mordor. It also didn't work out quite as well as he had hoped, especially when he was caught betraying Sauron.

IMO, we should NOT use Saruman as a yardstick of an Istar's abilities relating to their staves, except by means of counterpoint, as he was no longer truly one of them. Gandalf and Radagast are the only faithful wizards we have within our sight in the books, as a result (and Radagast's status is debatable, tho he may have been sent as a foil to Saruman and protector of trees by Yavanna, and not really to stop Sauron; "It would have been useless in any case to try and win over the honest Radagast to treachery. He sought me in good faith"). Saruman is fallen, by then, tho still a Maiar. Alatar and Pallando, we know little of, except by descriptions in Tales quite Unfinished.

Originally Posted by Draugohtar

Gandalf, also, on their reunion is made significantly more powerful than he, effectively negating everything but his voice.

As noted by Sarumian, it is indeed implied that Saruman's power, having been of worldly things, was already gone with the destruction of his army. His voice was the only thing left him, by his own choice in abandoning the Secret Fire. Gandalf was, after all, REPLACING him as Saruman, in a way! That this was by divine mandate is my memory of the event, tho I cannot reach for the books just at the moment to verify it.

Originally Posted by Draugohtar

Thus I see Saruman as being in a steady decline of his own causing, the loss of his staff only symbolic of his casting out. His corruption and allegiance to Sauron reduce him, and once the one ring is destroyed, he is further cripped to his 'Sharkey' status.

Here I agree with you, for the reasons I noted above. Saruman's staff-breaking was symbolic, as he had already abandoned its responsibilities and attendant advantages. He was, however, already "over", for the most part before the Ring was destroyed (tho it likely reduced his own ring to nothing), as Sauron gave no favor to a useless and disloyal servant.

That he had any power within LotR was just from his riding the coat-tails of what he had initially been given, and leveraging it into temporal power which he then, later lost. The seeking of personal power shut him off from the true power, so he was a wisp on the wind, killed by his own minion, soon after. He was not only without granted power before that, but seemed to be personally deflated by the shivering!

Gandalf, on the other hand, was released from restrictions at his staff-breaking, and not personally lessened. Initially he was reliant on physical combat over Caradharas, but he was still a creature of might worthy of consideration, despite lacking the staff-borne options. His evidenced power was made manifest more strongly with his being returned (not just returning, but being sent back), thus reaffriming the divine, radiant source of his manifested "magic"; without that allegiance, he surely would have suffered the same fate as Saruman!



On a final note, my personal take on the staves and rings is thus:

It is useful to observe how "magical" power is manifested in Tolkien's works. Evil always works within the boundaries of the already-created world in Tolkien, whereas only Eru is the ultimate source of actual new, radiant (arising from him into what was previously nothing) creation, tho this is oft woven into forms via the Music.

Subcreators are generally those who still look to Eru as the source.
Those who abandon the Creator can only twist forms (elves to orcs, ents to trolls, Maiar to Balrogs, materials burned to make the lesser light of perishable fire), as they cannot "radiate".

Note too that the ships' path over sea out of Arda is straight, while the world itself is ringed.

Thus. . .

Divine = straight, radial, light.

Mundane (and profane when excluding Eru) = ringed, bound, dark.

Rings are a twisted/bound line, as opposed to the straightness of staves (even staves as organically twisted as Gandalf the Grey's).

Rings thus ARE (not represent; Tolkien disliked allegory) the binding of things (such as the power of binding itself, in the case of the One Ring, or of the elements of air, fire, and water, in the elven set), and/or preservation arising from the "cyclical" unbroken circle (as with the elven triumvante).

Staves, on the other hand, thus ARE the direct channels of divine radiance, materially manifested rays of the animating force of the Secret Fire: the granted life of the soul itself.

A wizard without his staff is thus quite lessened, even tho they are Maiar. A wizard who breaks from Eru to eclipse him and overshadow mortals, cuts off the source of his staff's power, so renders it inert.