How would one acquire an orc army?

[Elmo]

If one was an aspiring Dark Lord, how would one go about finding the orcs to fight in one's army? I mean, how did Saruman do it? And in such great secrecy? He couldn't have made them out of the slime like he did in the film cause you can't just make sentient beings like that. Tolkien says something like orcs multiply like Children of Illuvatar so that means Saruman must have somehow got boy and girl orcs together and let the err 'magic' happen. Did he send envoys to try and convince wild orcs to join his side? Did he use his powers of persuasion to acquire the orcs by himself? Might be an interesting short story on how he did this? I'm not sure how he managed to hide these thousands of orcs from the so-called 'Wise' as well.

[Glorthelion]

I have no idea whatsoever. I think some of the orcs that Saruman drew into his service come from the Misty Mountains. I remember reading across a quote in the Return of the King (I can't remember where) which an orc said he claimed to be in the host of orcs that battled the Last Alliance. This could possibly imply that orcs could be immortal, since one of the theories of origins of orcs are that they were corrupted, tortured and mutilated forms of elves. And first bred by Morgoth. When the Battle of the Last Alliance ended it resulted in the entire orc force destroyed; or at least most of them. I think some of them fled into the misty Mountains and hence some became the Goblins you see in 'The Hobbit' or the Moria orcs. Saruman might have lured some orcs to his service through his powerful voice. I don't know how Saruman or Sauron could have done this.

I don't know about orcs reproducing sexually, but Morgoth, the creator of orcs, could not create life, only mockeries of it. I don't know what this means, but it is a hint as to how orcs can reproduce. Based on what I read of Tolkien, there is not even one reference to female orcs but I am just going to say that orcs reproduce sexually and that it is a big factor as to how dark lord wannabes manage to find orcs.

I am eager to find out too.

One does not simply have an orc army. Its army is more than just orcs, but of men, trolls, balrogs, dragons, and other creatures unknown. Not with 100000 orcs could you create an army. It is folly. Just KIDDING

Glorthelion

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I think the main clue for start at least lies in the fact that Saruman's home was basically next to Misty Mountains. He could have sent his servants to capture some random Orcs, or bargain with one or two minor tribes to come to serve him. He could surely lure them with some small amount of e.g. precious metals (which he surely had access to) or promises of spoils of war or whatever. Even putting aside the fact that he was a master diplomat, probably it is easy to convince a tribe whose daily reality is fighting cold, not very much food and generally bleak existence in the mountains.

As for hosting the Orcs and hiding them from the Wise, we are told that throughout the centuries, Saruman became more and more secretive and locked himself up in Isengard, which became rather isolated from the rest of the world. Note that we don't know e.g. that the White Council would ever have been hosted in Isengard. The visits of the Wise were scarce, maybe one Radagast per half a century, if there was need of him. And maybe not even that.
It is clear from the account in FotR that Gandalf had not visited Isengard for years before his coming and subsequent imprisonment there (in fact, it seems they perhaps even had not seen each other since the Dol Guldur assault in the year Bilbo found the Ring). The Council members did not seem to be so much in contact with each other. Elven Lords were mostly sitting in their own havens, Radagast messing around in the Wilderness, Gandalf kept hurrying here and there after his own business. I have no reason to think that other random Elves etc. (for example some messengers from Elrond) would have visited Saruman either. It seems to me there was a general air of laziness and the feeling of unnecessarity to communicate among the Wise as the Third Age grew older.

So Saruman had only to hide the Orcs from a "casual viewer", i.e. make sure there weren't ten thousand Orcs randomly walking through Isengard in plain daylight. I believe they were all stationed underground and all over the place, and the description of Isengard makes it clear it was exactly suitable for that:

Originally Posted by Two Towers, Chapter 8: The Road to Isengard

Many houses there were, chambers, halls, and passages, cut and tunnelled back into the walls upon their inner side, so that all the open circle was overlooked by countless windows and dark doors. Thousands could dwell there, workers, servants, slaves, and warriors with great store of arms; wolves were fed and stabled in deep dens beneath. The plain, too, was bored and delved. Shafts were driven deep into the ground; their upper ends were covered by low mounds and domes of stone, so that in the moonlight the Ring of Isengard looked like a graveyard of unquiet dead. For the ground trembled. The shafts ran down by many slopes and spiral stairs to caverns far under; there Saruman had treasuries, store-houses, armouries, smithies, and great furnaces.

I think it is clear there was no problem literally hiding thousands of Orcs somewhere at (or under) Isengard.

The size of Isengard's army and how it was acquired in relatively quick manner is probably the most interesting thing, but then, Saruman probably really took the "good old breeding program guidelines" from Morgoth or whatever, after all, he had the deep knowledge of the "arts of the Enemy". When you read about his machines etc., he is described as being very efficient in making things very efficient, so I have no doubt he was able to breed a lot of Orcs over a couple of decades (unlike the couple of months like the movies would have us believe).

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The size of Isengard's army and how it was acquired in relatively quick manner is probably the most interesting thing, but then, Saruman probably really took the "good old breeding program guidelines" from Morgoth or whatever, after all, he had the deep knowledge of the "arts of the Enemy". When you read about his machines etc., he is described as being very efficient in making things very efficient, so I have no doubt he was able to breed a lot of Orcs over a couple of decades (unlike the couple of months like the movies would have us believe).

The breeding question is one thing, but I would also wonder how those masses of Saruman's orcs were trained.

Saruman doesn't seem like a close-combat tactics sort of fellow. Did he use one or more of the "originals" he'd used to start breeding as trainers for the rest? Possibly, but then one would think the Uruk-hai, being notably larger than the Misty Mountains orcs, would have a different style of fighting. Maybe local Dunlendings helped out there. How long would it have taken to train thousands of troops in warfare, especially when you're having to do it secretly?

[Galadriel55]

It would not have been difficult for Saruman to "acquire" his orcs. Firstly, since Isengard is in close proximity to the Misty Mountains, and we hear from Celeborn, I believe, that orcs have been flocking there again.

Secondly, because of his power over minds. If he could manipulate good and wise people with his voice, arguments, reputation, power, threats, etc, he could certainly turn a rabble or orcs into his servants - even somewhat loyal ones, as much as orcs and loyal go together.

Most importantly, though, I think that this is a clear example of how evil draws evil. Lesser evil, or those with lesser power, flock to the greater. This is partially why Sauron was so successful in winning the East and South to his side. Same goes to Saruman and his orcs. They do evil, he is powerful evil, they follow him.


As for the Uruk-hai, the half-men-half-orcs, we are lead to assume that they were produced through "mixed marriages" between men and orcs, but then there's no proof of this or otherwise. Maybe Saruman just figured out a way to increase orc size and reduce the fear of the sun. Maybe they were genetically modified orcs, or they were on preformance-enhancing drugs, or whatever you want. He invented ME dynamite - why not oversized orcs?

I think that the Prof never considered how the orcs are trained. It seems that they are just "born with a sword in hand", so to speak. Unless they are "made with a sword in hand". But whatever their origin, fighting and other gruesomness seems to be as innate to them as various arts are for Elves. When they are on their own, the reason for being so unorgainsed is because they don't have a leader who is significantly stronger and more powerful than they are to make they obey. Without a dictator they have complete anarchy. When they have someone to put them in line, they can march in that line.

Yet, contrary to my previous point, it was always the men - Dunlendings, Haradrin, Easterlings, etc - that made up the more organised part of Sauron's and Saruman's armies. The orcs' main purpose was not brains, skill, or tactics, but numbers.

[Morthoron]

Simple. One merely needs a Platinum Uruk Business Visa card. Don't leave Orthanc without it...

Spawning pits: $5172.63
Human flesh: $6.95 per pound
Voice lessons: $15.00 per hour

An army of 10,000 Orcs? Priceless!

[Alfirin]

I think Saruman mat have offered the Orcs something they valued far more that precios metals.......food. Remember the Uruk-hai's battle cry that mentions that the White hand "gives us man's flesh to eat". This is regarded as a postive by the orcs. It is quite possible that Orcs love the taste of human flesh, prizing it above all other foods. If they do it is likey all Saruman would have to promise them was that if they served him, he would give them weaponry that would allow them to kill many men, and give them ample opportunity to feast, not just on men but, as the force trampled through Rohan proper and began to assault towns possibly on women and "tender young children". And that this could keep going almost indefinitely, a long pork feast that would never have to end. With further gourmet delights down the road (I'm sure that, if Orcs eat people, some of the Uruk-Hai (I single them out because they are impled as being not merely bigger than the common orcs but more intellegent) might be curious if elf and dwarf are tasty as well, and want to find out.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The breeding question is one thing, but I would also wonder how those masses of Saruman's orcs were trained.

Saruman doesn't seem like a close-combat tactics sort of fellow. Did he use one or more of the "originals" he'd used to start breeding as trainers for the rest? Possibly, but then one would think the Uruk-hai, being notably larger than the Misty Mountains orcs, would have a different style of fighting. Maybe local Dunlendings helped out there.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think that the Prof never considered how the orcs are trained. It seems that they are just "born with a sword in hand", so to speak.

Good point, this. But as to what Inzil said, I would add: why not "close-combat tactics sort of fellow"? Sure, Saruman would not be the one to stand in front of the Uruk armies and show them how to swing a sword, he probably won't be the one to study ancient manuals on sword-fighting in the era of Númenor or whatnot, in that I agree. But still, I can imagine Saruman digging up some treatises like "Analysis of the Basic Tactics of the Third Angband Regiment - A Comprehensive Handbook" and making one of his more intelligent (human?) leaders drill the Orcs according to them. It is only a theory, though, and there surely could be many objections raised, but I'd say it's a possibility.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I would add: why not "close-combat tactics sort of fellow"? Sure, Saruman would not be the one to stand in front of the Uruk armies and show them how to swing a sword, he probably won't be the one to study ancient manuals on sword-fighting in the era of Númenor or whatnot, in that I agree. But still, I can imagine Saruman digging up some treatises like "Analysis of the Basic Tactics of the Third Angband Regiment - A Comprehensive Handbook" and making one of his more intelligent (human?) leaders drill the Orcs according to them. It is only a theory, though, and there surely could be many objections raised, but I'd say it's a possibility.

Something like this?

I suppose Saruman might also have had occasion to watch both the men of Minas Tirith and the Rohirrim at training, so maybe that gave him some ideas as well.