Most Tragic Figure

[Odysseus819]

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I would like to pose a question for the group. The classic definition of a tragic chracter -- I think based on Aristotle -- was a basically worthy or great man (or woman) who is brought low by a combination of fate and one fault or weakness (often hubris or arrogance).

Under this narrow defintion of tragic, who do you think is the most tragic figure in the five najor books (LotR, Hobbit and Silarillion)?

</p>

[Sharkû]

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Re: Most Tragic Figure

Húrin and probably even more his children, Lalaith, Nienor and Túrin. The whole family was struck by doom all the time.

</p>

[Imp]

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hehe

Sharkespear wrote 'Julius Caesar' and in it it is debated who the real Tragic Hero is, either Caesar or Brutus.

But in Middle-Earth I believe Boromir was one, Túrin also, and another one of my personal Heroes, Fingolfin (Not sure if you guys consider him one though) I mean he knocked on the Gates of Hell on Middle-Earth and challenged freakin' Melkor for pete's sake.

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: hehe

Túrin... and Gollum.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[enep]

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Re: hehe

All of the above, <u>especially</u> Fingolfin who is undoubtably one of my favourite characters. Another would be Feanor, I always thought he came to a sad end.

- enep</p>

[Inziladun]

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Re: hehe

Túrin, definately.

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>

[Mister Underhill]

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Re: hehe

Saruman. Denethor.

</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

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Re: hehe

Gollum, Turin and Boromir.

What if - what if this is as good as it gets?</p>

[Voronwe]

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Re: hehe

It's got to be Turin. No-one had a more bitter or tragic life, except prehaps Hurin himself.

But what was Turin's tragic flaw? Arrogance? Stubborness? Hubris (pride)? I think, at various points in his life, Turin showed all three.


-Voronwë
<font size="2">"For Aldarion had become enamoured of the Great Sea, and of a ship riding there alone without sight of land, borne by the winds with foam at its throat to coasts and havens unguessed; and that love and desire never left him until his life's end."</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: hehe

I've seen Boromir mentioned now a couple times and I just wanted to say that no matter how hard I look at him I just can't see anything tragic about him. I've never felt sympathy towards his demise or empathy towards his dilema. In fact, I've almost always considered his character to be the most intrusive of the Company, inserted more as a literary link to Gonodor than as a true entity to know and love (or hate). His lifespan is the shortest of the book (for main characters), even Fatty, Butterbur and Wormtongue lasted long than he.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[Imp]

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...

Have a heart <img src=ohwell.gif ALT=":\">

</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 690

Melkor

...without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless...

[Orald]

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Re: ...

Good one H-I, and all that turned away from the light. Hurin and Turin, Turin because he had to live a nightmare, and Hurin because he had to watch his entire family go through that, without being able to do anything.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

[red]

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Re: Most Tragic Figure

Gollum??? I've never noticed anything redeeming at all about him. Selfish and evil from the beginning.

Maedhros and Maglor may not be the 'most tragic', but they are my favorites. Good guys at the core, but made the huge mistake of taking that terrible oath. Most unlike their horrible brothers, with the possible exception of the twins who we hear little about.

-réd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>

[noldo]

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Re: Most Tragic Figure

I have to agree on Túrin, but you guys see this tragedy thing more as transition of becoming evil with greed and pride set aside. How about Lúthien then? Wasn't her fate tragic?

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[The Barrow-Wight]

Not to defend him, but Gollum was tragic. And his inability to find redemption is exactly what makes his story a tragedy. Though in the beginning he was an vessel eager for the evil of the Ring, throughout The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings we are shown just how close he came to escaping its control. We are given brief glimpses of his internal battles which almost return him to humanity (hobbitry?, Smeagolry?). The Stinker/Slinker debate in the Dead Marshes demonstrates perfectly the forces that were tearing at poor Gollum. No matter how bad an egg he was to start with he didn't deserve the terrible life the Ring granted him.

[Sharkû]

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Re: Most Tragic Figure

The classical tragical conflict... no matter what direction, whatever he would have done would have been struck down by fate. Had he repented and become Sméagol again - Sam would still have mistrusted him, and the RIng probably would not have been destroyed. And the way he was - well, certainly no good guy.

</p>

[enep]

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Re: Most Tragic Figure

Ack! Not another Gollum-good-or-bad argument. I always thought Gollum was tragic; tragic and mistreated perhaps. Torn in two, (or four?) struggling with himself in 'interior debates;' it wasn't really his fault. Poor gollum. Nasssty hobbitsesss. <img src=biggrin.gif ALT="">

- enep</p>

[Orald]

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Re: Most Tragic Figure

I don't believe Luthien's fate to be tragic, it was sad that she died, but that was because she wanted to be counted among men so she could be with Beren when they left the circles of the world.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

[enep]

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Re: Most Tragic Figure

Although in some senses Beren and Luthien were tragic; they both lived happily ever after together on their own little island. Until their deaths; which were not in vain.

- enep</p>

[red]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: Most Tragic Figure

My questioning of Gollum was based on the original description of 'tragic' in the first post. &lt;scroll up&gt; Odysseus says a tragic character, &quot;was a basically worthy or great man (or woman) who is brought low by a combination of fate and one fault or weakness.&quot; Based on that def, Gollum was NOT tragic. He was never worthy or great by any stretch of the imagination.

-réd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: Most Tragic Figure

Then, indeed, Gollum does not meet Odysseus' admittedly narrow definition of tragic and Túrin would be my only answer (of the two I submitted). I was erroneously going on the common meaning (at least my understanding of it) of tragic. I would still deny Boromir as a tragic character in this sense in that his great deeds were outside the bounds of the story as told and thus, though his fall was well-recorded, the great heights he fell from were never literally established (other than his own retelling of his own deeds).

At least if we open the definition of 'tragic' to a more general meaning I'll already have a good answer posted. <img src=ohwell.gif ALT=":/">



The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[Samwise of the shire]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re tragic figures

I think that the Lady Eowen was tragic,fighting with out hope and seeing the Lord Theoden wounded and never again talking to him.Lord Theoden was tragic as well,standing until he fell under his horse.The horse was tragic too......not I was joking.Then there was that pittiful shadow Gollum,he might have been good once but I highly doubt it.And Saruman a beggar finally killed on the doorstep of bagend.Then there was Turin and his sister.Man I was depressed all the next day.Then there was Beren and Luthien I loved the story though.And then there was that one gaurd who fell at helms dike.But there are a whole bunch of stupid pathetic badguys(sauron,saruman,wormtongue,maedhros,maeglin ,morgoth,a few balrogs-to put most of there power into a distroable figure thanks mister erik sir- and a few other if you would like to add just post under mine)
Samwise of the shire

</p>

[red]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Re tragic figures

I must stand up for my fellow red-head. Maedhros was neither stupid, pathetic nor bad. He was an Elven prince and I doubt that stupid could be applied to any Elven prince though there were a few that struggled with wisdom, a completely different concept. Pathetic? Not even close. Bad? He had a good heart that was torn in two by the awful Oath he took in his youth. <img src=frown.gif ALT=""> Of all the sons of Feanor, Maedhros is described as the most gentle. He alone stood aside at the burning of Losgar.

What I really can't believe is the company you grouped him with! Maedhros does not belong in a list with Saruman, Sauron, Maeglin, Wormtongue, Morgoth and Balrogs!! Not by a long shot! Are you sure you know who Maedhros is????

-rêd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000094>red</A> at: 2/19/01 8:26:08 pm

[red]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Re tragic figures

&lt;--- Maedhros!!! <img src=cool.gif ALT="8)">

-réd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>

[lindil]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> tragic

Turin and family.
Feanor and Maedhros and Maglor [ the rest were bad apples in my book -w/ the possible exception of the son who died at Losgar.



lindil

</p>

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Re tragic figures

Gilthalion here.

I think that Arwen Undomiel should be named among the most tragic of the figures.

Her hubris can be found in her thought that her mortal choice would be endurable in the end.

It wasn't.

<hr> <center><font size=1>Not much at all to see at http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Bare Bones Website</a></center></p>

[red]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Re tragic figures

lindil ...and Feanor HIMSELF wasn't a bad apple??? He was as evil as they come! Ack! <img src=eek.gif ALT=":eek">

-réd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>

[Mister Underhill]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Re tragic figures

Hey réd, do my eyes deceive me or is Maedhros doing the hula-hoop in that pic you posted?

</p>

[BilboFrodo]

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Mistake

I would presume you are counting Lord of the Rings as three books which is WRONG, it is one book, it could be classified as six but NEVER three, it was published as three because of the publisher

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: Mistake

BilboFrodo, actually you are right and wrong (no caps). The Lord of the Rings has been published in three separate books (The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers and The Return of the King) since its first edition. So there really are three books. <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> The error many people make is to call these three books a trilogy, which would mean three books telling different but related tales.

CLARIFICATION:
The Lord of the Rings was artificially divided into three volumes (books) for publishing reasons. Though the division was artifical, there are still three physical books (listed above). Because each volume is but a part of one whole story and not a sequel or prequel to the other volumes, the three books may not be considered a triliogy.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000002>RKittle</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/oneringicon.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 2/20/01 7:56:54 am

[Balin999]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: Mistake

well your'e right saying its not a trilogy but i got an edition where there is only one book so please don't mind if i say &quot;the book&quot; instead of &quot;the books&quot; <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

Behold the King of Moria!</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: 1 Book

Exactly, Balin! One book, three books, seven books (I gottem all <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> ). Doesn't mattter. We know what people mean and can only fault them when they say 'trilogy' (and even then its an easy mistake easily overlooked).

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: 1 Book

JRRT intended LoTR to be published as one book. As Wight comments, it was divided into three for publishing purposes. Further, the 6 &quot;books&quot; the entire tale is divided into was an organizational device. LoTR was not intended to be published as 6 separate books, no matter what the publisher says in connection with the &quot;Millenium Edition&quot;.

Most tragic? Any of the great elves in Middle Earth. Elrond, Galadriel, the entire House of Finwe. All were mighty, powerful, and all loved Arda and all lost what they loved, Middle Earth because the Firstborn were &quot;fated&quot; to be supplanted by Man. What could be more tragic to labour on behalf of yourself and your people to maintain an &quot;Elven&quot; land, only to have to give it up (or in the case of the House of Finwe, to fight an unwinnable war and be utterly defeated)?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
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Feanor

red -you are of course right about feanor. I did not put him in the same class as 4 of his sons for the reason that he actually produced some of elvendom's greatest works: the feanorian script, the Palantiri, the Silmarilli, ,but it is true caranthir,curufin and celegorm especially seemed to have shared his lack of conscience. It is a scary thought that the folowers of these 4 sons of Feanor must have been a rough and cruel lot to have the brothers as lords.
It was posted thet Maedhros was the kindest of the Son. I would disagree and put Maglor in that position as he tried to talk Maedhros out of regaining the Silmarills after the War of Wrath and harboured Elrond and Elros instead of leavin them to die in the forest.Although i will agree that on occasion Maedhros def. showed a nobility of character missing in the other 5.

lindil

</p>

[Odysseus819]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: Feanor

Some random comments on the responses, which were all very interesting.

Preliminarily, I have now learned never to refer to LotR as a trilogy -- sorry, i guess that's a major no-no. Since about 9 of you brought this topic up -- I read somewhere that LotR once comprised seven (not six) books. My Q is, what was the &quot;extra&quot; small book?

Back to the thread -- I was thinking of Turin. His story certainly reads like a Greek tragedy. He was a worthy man, but his stubborn refusal to return and accept Thingol's judgment set in motion the whole chain of events that ultimately led to his tragic death.

But I also had Boromir and others (Hurin, e.g.) in mind, and I wanted to find out what others thought. One of the posters was very down on Boromir, but I note that Aragorn though him a vaaaliant man, and the fact that he was willing to face the balrog certainly shows courage. And he dioed heroically. But Turin certainly fits the classic definition better.

</p>

[lindil]

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versions

the seventh is the appendices . [there is a version out now of 7 hardbacks]

I didn't mention Boromir - becuse in a spiritual sense his real tragedy was avoided. Taking holdof the ring , or dying while still consumed by it's lust.
He was given an absolution of sorts by Aragorn who in return was sent to 'save ' his people.
so imho - the real tragedy was averted.

lindil

</p>

[Orald]

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Re: versions

Slight point to lindil. Celegorm, Curufin, and Caranthir makes 3 not 4, including Feanor as a son of Feanor is also false, <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> .

Did you mean that there were only four sons that may have been good, or at least not as bad as the ones listed above?

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

[red]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: versions

Hmmm...I'm guessing the missing son is the twin that did not die at Losgar. And that lindil meant to group him with the three C's. <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> But as little as we read about those two, can we really be sure they shared their father's and brothers' dispositions?

-réd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000094>red</A> at: 2/20/01 6:56:24 pm

[enep]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 363</TD><TD><img src=http://www.dodgywebsite.homestead.com/files/Kungfu_01.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Re tragic figures

ACK! Burn him on the pyre! <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> Gollum could have been good, and I don't doubt it. Seeing Frodo happy made him more angry...Sam also inflicted pain on him, as did everyone who crossed his path. Poor Gollum. Damn Ring...all Preciousss fault...

- enep</p>