Orcs, will, rings

[Tinman]

Its hard to find active tolkien forums these days, but it looks like there're a few well learned tolkienologists here who can maybe help me with some questions. I've been reading up on orcs and free will. I recently ready this site (http://www.barrowdowns.com/articles_orcs.php) and found it pretty insightful, but left me with a few questions. I understood most of it, but, forgive my ignorance, some of it needs clarification for me.

1. It seems like all orcs were in some way dominated by melkor, if not sauron too. What then is the explanation for Sauruman's orcs, who appear to be bound to his will, or the orcs of Kazadum, who seem to be independent of both Sauruman and Sauron? How is it that these masters dominate the orcs they command? Is it sheer will power? Like mind control? It sounds like all orcs are bound to melkor, not sauron, but clearly sauron and sauruman had some control over their orcs. Was it in no way supernatural? No different than say Aragorn's control over his armies?.

2. Could an orc have claimed the ring? I know a wraith could not, because it was completely bound to sauron's will... but orcs seem to have some form of free will of their own. Is this why sauruman did not tell the orcs what he was looking for, just that he wanted the hobbit? Because he feared they would keep it for themselves? Was this a fear of Sauron's too?

3. Is it generally canonical that some orcs had miar spirits in them? Or is this fan speculation?

Thanks guys, look forward to the discussion.

[Galadriel55]

Welcome aboard, Tinman!

Originally Posted by Tinman

1. It seems like all orcs were in some way dominated by melkor, if not sauron too. What then is the explanation for Sauruman's orcs, who appear to be bound to his will, or the orcs of Kazadum, who seem to be independent of both Sauruman and Sauron? How is it that these masters dominate the orcs they command? Is it sheer will power? Like mind control? It sounds like all orcs are bound to melkor, not sauron, but clearly sauron and sauruman had some control over their orcs. Was it in no way supernatural? No different than say Aragorn's control over his armies?.

I suppose that the method of "control" - or lack of such - is debatable, and different in every case. Saruman, Sauron and Melkor influenced the orcs and commanded absolute loyalty and obedience. The orcs were bound by two fears: of their masters, and of their enemies. I suppose of each other as well, seeing how they love each other.

Sauron (and I can guess Morgoth and Saruman too) supported and "pushed forward" their armies with willpower, as these passages suggest:

From all his [Sauron's] policies and webs of fear and treachery, from all his stratagems and wars his mind shook free; and throughout his realm a tremor ran, his slaves quailed, his armies halted, and his captains suddenly steerless, bereft of will, waivered and despaired. For they were forgotten. The whole mind and purpose of the Power that wielded them was now bent with overwhelming force upon the Mountain.

~ROTK, Mount Doom

...And even at that moment all the hosts of Mordor trembled, doubt clutched their hearts, their laughter failed, their hands shook and their limbs were loosed. The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate and fury was wavering, its will was removed from them...

~ROTK, The Field of Cormallen

It's not impossible that this is a mirror image of how Aragorn kept up the Grey Company through the Paths of the Dead. I interpret the "Power" to be a well-trained will, but it's open to other interpretations as well.

2. Could an orc have claimed the ring? I know a wraith could not, because it was completely bound to sauron's will... but orcs seem to have some form of free will of their own. Is this why sauruman did not tell the orcs what he was looking for, just that he wanted the hobbit? Because he feared they would keep it for themselves? Was this a fear of Sauron's too?

An orc could have, but looking at how friendly and organised they were it wasn't a threat for Sauron or Saruman. On the contrary - he would find the exact location of the Ring and send a Nazgul there to take it.

I don't have FOTR to quote from right now, but I'm certain Gandalf says something in The Shadow of the Past about Bilbo finding the Ring that suggests that an orc could have easily found it too.

3. Is it generally canonical that some orcs had miar spirits in them? Or is this fan speculation?

Tolkien changed his mind on this a lot. Orcs are either twisted Elves, Men, Maiar, or beasts. Or all of the above.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Tinman

What then is the explanation for Sauruman's orcs, who appear to be bound to his will, or the orcs of Kazadum, who seem to be independent of both Sauruman and Sauron? How is it that these masters dominate the orcs they command? Is it sheer will power? Like mind control? It sounds like all orcs are bound to melkor, not sauron, but clearly sauron and sauruman had some control over their orcs. Was it in no way supernatural? No different than say Aragorn's control over his armies?.

In Saruman's case the loyalty of his Orcs may have been at least partly bought. He certainly didn't have the "fear factor" of Melkor, or even Sauron. Wasn't it Uglúk who made the comment about the White Hand giving them "man's flesh" to eat? Good thing Gandalf escaped, eh?

The Moria Orcs were far enough away that they didn't have direct supervision from Sauron, but still they served his purposes in keeping Moria (and the mountain-crossing there) secure from his enemies. I daresay they would have answered a direct summons from him.

Originally Posted by Tinman

2. Could an orc have claimed the ring? I know a wraith could not, because it was completely bound to sauron's will... but orcs seem to have some form of free will of their own. Is this why sauruman did not tell the orcs what he was looking for, just that he wanted the hobbit? Because he feared they would keep it for themselves? Was this a fear of Sauron's too?

I think Saruman believed in telling the Orcs just enough to get the job done, as a matter of practice. That's probably a good idea no matter what their task was. Just having them capture Hobbits and not search them thoroughly was sufficient, as evidenced by Uglúk seeing that the orders were indeed kept.

Anyone with a will of their own could claim the Ring (and sooner or later, would), but using it was a different matter. Unless the claimant was strong enough to keep it from Sauron in a one-on-one contest, claiming it would have merely tipped off Sauron as to exactly where it was. I don't think Sauron had too much fear that one of his servants might take it.

Originally Posted by Tinman

3. Is it generally canonical that some orcs had miar spirits in them? Or is this fan speculation?

I think that's pretty unlikely. The Maia that served Melkor did so in more powerful forms, like Balrogs.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The Moria Orcs were far enough away that they didn't have direct supervision from Sauron, but still they served his purposes in keeping Moria (and the mountain-crossing there) secure from his enemies. I daresay they would have answered a direct summons from him.

Moria orcs worshiped the Balrog more than Sauron or Saruman. They would have listened to him/it if he/it told them to do something, but it really depends on how Sauron summons/commands them. They couldn't care less for Grishnakh and his Nazgul.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Moria orcs worshiped the Balrog more than Sauron or Saruman. They would have listened to him/it if he/it told them to do something, but it really depends on how Sauron summons/commands them. They couldn't care less for Grishnakh and his Nazgul.

They obeyed the Balrog because it was there, as opposed to the much more remote Sauron. That begs the question though: would the Balrog have tried to prevent them from leaving in answer to Sauron? I somehow don't think so. The Balrog really didn't need them, anyway.

[blantyr]

As I recall, Frodo asked Galadriel why he could not read the minds of the other ring bearers, or command them. Her response that he had not tried, and she warned him not to try. He would have to train his mind and will in order to successfully use that power. I suspect he would have more likely attracted unwanted attention from Nazgul than any other result if he tried to use that power untrained.

I suspect Sauron's, the Balrog's or Melkor's power over the orcs would be the same thing. Command through will and fear was part of what Sauron does, and he put part of that power into the Ring.

[Tinman]

So would an orc finding such a precious treasure attempt to keep it a secret? Or would they probably turn it in to gain the dark lords favor (out avoid his wrath)? Our would it be different depending in the orc?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Tinman

So would an orc finding such a precious treasure attempt to keep it a secret? Or would they probably turn it in to gain the dark lords favor (out avoid his wrath)? Our would it be different depending in the orc?

I think it would depend upon whether the Orc knew what he had. If he recognized it as the Ruling Ring, and especially if other Orcs were aware of it, it would have a much greater chance of being brought to Sauron.

A lone Orc finding it, like Grishnákh for example, might keep it long enough to it to start working on him, leading to an eventual claim. And that, of course, would be the same as taking the Ring to Sauron: he would end up with it regardless.

[Elmo]

It is mentioned in Morgoth's Ring that some of the most powerful orcs in the First Age could have been maiar. It's a quality book I suggest everyone get it. Some beautiful writing in it.

I don't see why an orc wouldn't try to claim the ring for himself. It was a dream of quite a few orcs to break free of their 'big bosses' as shown in Shagrat's and Gorbag's conversation in LOTR. The ring would claim to give them the power to do this - by turning the orc in question into a big boss themselves.

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

They obeyed the Balrog because it was there, as opposed to the much more remote Sauron. That begs the question though: would the Balrog have tried to prevent them from leaving in answer to Sauron? I somehow don't think so. The Balrog really didn't need them, anyway.

I think the balrog was completely indifferent to the orcs in Moria, hence his refusal to fight in the Battle of Azanulbizar.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Elmo

I think the balrog was completely indifferent to the orcs in Moria, hence his refusal to fight in the Battle of Azanulbizar.

Aye, but the orcs are not indifferent to the Balrog.