![]() |
![]() |
Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
![]() |
#1 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion
Posts: 551
![]() |
Were Dwarves attracted to Elves?
I was reading HoME Vol. II today, and I came across this line in The Nauglafring: "This do we ask...each a fair maiden of the woodland Elves to fare away with us to our homes."
Well, men will be men, I suppose, but I thought the Dwarves were too proud for that kind of thing. Though it might just explain Gimli's obess–er–respect–for Galadriel. It is very probable that I am asking a stupid question and have overlooked something rather obvious. I do that a lot. PS - If they were attracted to Elves, then were they also attracted to humans?
__________________
"Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" – Tom Bombadil Last edited by Galadriel; 05-04-2011 at 06:08 AM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,033
![]() ![]() |
Well, I think it's questionable that such a line would have survived as part of the Red Book, post-Lord of the Rings Middle-earth.
Generally speaking, neither the Dwarves of The Book of Lost Tales, nor 'Tinwelint' (Thingol) remained the same in much later conceptions, yet that said, I think we can safely say Gimli thought Galadriel very fair in any case, implying that Dwarves (or at least some) could find Elves beautiful. But if so, that still doesn't mean Tolkien would have retained this line from The Book of Lost Tales. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,035
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Quote:
We don't see the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost falling for Melain. And even 'Lúthien returned' (aka Arwen) couldn't elicit in Gimli the reaction he had to Galadriel.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,506
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
I think it has to do with all that Elf butt staring them in the face.
__________________
And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 |
Wight
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Settling down in Bree for the winter.
Posts: 208
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion
Posts: 551
![]() |
Not that I've heard of, but the thought could be a little disturbing...
__________________
"Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" – Tom Bombadil |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,033
![]() ![]() |
Quote:
Gimli's infatuation, as a whole, for Galadriel might be a bit of a different consideration than looking at the more specific 'physical attraction' possibility. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,359
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
I don't think Gimi's love for Galadriel was one of physical attraction. It's more like... being fascinated over a wiser and greater friend... something of that sort, I just can't get it out right. It's more of reverence than love in a way.
Possibly the dwarves needed some women - any women - because a lack of their own kind? I recall that they had very few females. I haven't read HOME II, so I don't really know what's going on when the line was said...
__________________
You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#9 |
Wight of the Old Forest
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
Posts: 3,329
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
What was going on in HoME II (aka Book of Lost Tales) is that our Prof at that time still thought of the Dwarves as a faithless and devious, if not downright evil race that had 'no spirit indwelling' and wasn't above smithing even for Morgoth if the price was right - so why not make them lecherous and lust after elf-maidens too? The whole character of Gimli and his chivalric love for Galadriel would have been inconceivable in this context and are another matter altogether.
__________________
Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#10 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion
Posts: 551
![]() |
Quote:
__________________
"Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" – Tom Bombadil |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#11 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,033
![]() ![]() |
Well explained Pitchwife.
And again (for clarity in the thread), I'm not suggesting Gimli's infatuation was only due to Galadriel's great physical beauty, but that surely he found her physically 'attractive' as well -- and considering what I would characterize as a notable difference (from a Mannish perspective) between dwarf-women, who looked like dwarf-men to Men's eyes, and the beauty of Galadriel, I still would find it odd that Gimli only found Galadriel fair because of other factors... ... and somewhat odd if only Gimli could find an Elven woman fair. But that rather specific point doesn't, in any event, mean that the Dwarves of Moria were swooning everytime they spied an Elven woman in Eregion! |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#12 | |
Auspicious Wraith
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,859
![]() ![]() |
![]() Quote:
The thought I had was of the dwarfs in Norse mythology, who would frequently lust after goddesses and whatnot, irrespective of stature. *paging Mithalwen to make some jape about 'size' and the degree to which it matters
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#13 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,451
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
But I was going to make some jest -I mean a seriously scholarly point - about beards. Are you trying to get me banned? Not that I have any idea to what you mean
![]()
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#14 |
Auspicious Wraith
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,859
![]() ![]() |
![]()
It doesn't matter how long I'm away from the Downs: I know you'll be there when such discussions pop up.
![]()
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#15 |
Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 8,093
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Maybe Gimli's admiration for Galadriel's beauty was (at least partly) similar to other Dwarven love of beautiful things - such as the love for precious stones, mithril or the dark waters of Kheled-zaram - rather than similar to an average Dwarf male's admiration for a beautiful Dwarf female.
__________________
Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#16 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,035
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Quote:
![]()
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#17 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 2
![]() |
HI: new here.
I think Gimli was more of a superstitious person, as most Dwarves were regarding Elves. they were hidden, mistrustful and almost miserly hermits in their caves, hoarding their riches. elves were of the sunlight, and forest. He speak of Galadriel as a witch, knowing but little, and most of that tales to frighten children Dwarves. When he finds out how wrong he is, he is utterly disarmed, and completely taken with her charms. She does indeed steal his heart, and he becomes not only fast friends with Legolas, he is ever and fully devoted to the Lady. Attracted? No it is far deeper than that. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#18 | ||||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
As for Gimli...
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
understanding" clearly indicate something deeper and more important going on there. And welcome to the 'Downs!
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#19 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,033
![]() ![]() |
Well, to any who are stressing other factors behind Gimli's reaction to Galadriel: is the implication that Gimli was really only attracted physically to Dwarf-women?
Look I don't mean to keep things shallow here... but actually I thought that was the original point ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#20 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,359
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Quote:
![]()
__________________
You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#21 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,033
![]() ![]() |
Well, I really meant: is the implication that Gimli didn't really find Galadriel physically attractive?
Incidentally, considering that dwarf-women are under discussion, any future flippant comments about the name Nerwen will be ignored by me in this thread. ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#22 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,359
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Sure he did. At least, IMO. But I think that his attraction to her was on a much deeper level as well. Everyone could find her physically attrctive, but not everyone found fer to also be a friend (not sure if it's the best way to describe it here). Boromir didn't, even though he's a Man, not a Dwarf.
__________________
You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#23 | |
Wight
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Settling down in Bree for the winter.
Posts: 208
![]() |
Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#24 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,359
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Quote:
__________________
You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#25 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,033
![]() ![]() |
Quote:
![]() But your initial question was not about possible deeper levels, but whether Dwarves found (or could find) Elves attractive physically; and my point is that while The Book of Lost Tales quote is dubious enough, I think Gilmi can be used as an example that it was possible, and the response 'it was more than physical' is basically off the point to that... ... again, unless anyone out there intends to imply that this deeper level really explains Gimli's devotion to Galadriel, meaning he didn't really find her fair on a physical level (shallower level though it be!). |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#26 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion
Posts: 551
![]() |
I think this thread has deviated from 'were Dwarves attracted to Elves' to 'explain how Gilmi was attracted to Galadriel'
![]()
__________________
"Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" – Tom Bombadil |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#27 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,033
![]() ![]() |
Quote:
In other words I'm wondering if there's anyone out there who doesn't agree with that much. Perhaps not, since it's such an arguably narrow enough point, but I can't say I've never been surprised when chatting Tolkien on the web! I'm not sure I would note -- let's say for a theoretical website article or something -- that Gimli is certainly proof of some sweeping point about physical attraction between the races (I likely wouldn't even raise the matter actually), but on the other hand I'm not sure why he need be singular among Dwarves in finding Elven-women beautiful; again, even if his deeper devotion to Galadriel herself was historically more singular. Last edited by Galin; 05-16-2011 at 10:12 AM. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#28 |
Dead Serious
|
Quite apart from the case of Gimli (who, in any case, is too much of an apparent exception to be looked at too closely except as evidence that it is possible), I don't think it is, ontologically, a problem to say that Dwarves would find Elves attractive--assuming they could get over several thousand years of racial hatred and an understandable preference for the familiar over the unfamiliar (which is as much or more likely a default as trite saying that "opposites attract").
The reason I think this has to do with the origins of the Dwarves: Aulë made them because he was impatient for the Eruhíni (so were the other Valar, but that's decide the point). They were also made in imitation of them. On these bases, I think it is likely to posit that the Dwarves would still recognise Elves as the ideal on which they were based--even if it was only in some sort of subconscious matter. After all, I highly doubt the Dwarves would go around saying "we're poorly patterned copies off the Elven original." The chief way to counter this, I suspect, would be to say that when Eru gave them souls, he also gave them a distinct sense of beauty and/or a preference for their own kind. While this is undoubtably true in part, I shy away from saying that Eru would have categorically overridden their recognition of the bodily beauty of those on which they were patterned. After all, Eru did not so much turn Aulë's creation into the Children he was trying to imitate, but merely gave them what Aulë could not: independence and a soul. Thus, it seems to me that the Dwarves would be able to recognise, by themselves, what Aulë had recognised before them--namely the beauty of the Elves. None of which answers the question certainly, but I think it's a good starting point.
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#29 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 33
![]() |
You can admire the way something looks without falling in love with it. You can see a sunset and think it looks amazing and wish you could capture the color of the sky in a painting and gaze at it forever. Gimli kind of did that with Galadriel's hair by placing it in a necklace and using it as a family heirloom.
Gimli may have loved Galadriel but he probably didn't want to marry her. He admired her and considered her a true friend. He would probably be pleased to hang out with her often, but that would probably be enough. There are just so many levels to the concept of love... |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|
![]() |