Question regarding Elves and death

[Tom-fool of a took]

Bit of a noobish question.

I know that Elves have eternal life and, when choosing to, eventally pass onto the Havens (which I'm assuming is some form of Heaven?).

My question is what happens to Elves that suffer death in Middle-Earth?

Are they eventually able to pass onto the Havens as well?

[Mithalwen]

Hi Tom! From your question it seems you have read the Lord of the Rings but not the Silmarillion?

The Havens are not heaven but the Grey Havens (Mithlond) on the coast west of the Shire. From here Elves who are weary of life in the mortal lands of Middle Earth take ship and sail to the Undying Lands. So it is the departure point rather than the destination.

In Tolkien's universe there is an overall creator"god" Eru but the world is governed by angels or demigods called the Valar aided by less powerful beings of the same type called the Maiar. They have specific areas of responsibility like the Norse gods or the gods of Greece and Rome and live in the Undying lands, a sort of Paradise.

One of the Valar is called Namo or Mandos and he deals with judgement. When a elf dies his spirit is summoned to the halls of Mandos. If he refuses the call he will remain as a disembodied spirit - basically a ghost. If he accepts the call he will be judged by Mandos and spend and appointed time in his halls contemplating the deeds of his life and when appropriate will be given a new body and live again in the Undying lands. The Halls of Mandos are a kind of purgatory. Only one elf has returned to Middle Earth having died and gone to Mandos and that is Glorfindel.

It is more complicated than this because it is based on information and writings that weren't published by Tolkien in his lifetime and he revised his ideas about what happened to slain elves but I am sure someone will correct me if I have gone wrong.

[Tom-fool of a took]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Hi Tom! From your question it seems you have read the Lord of the Rings but not the Silmarillion?

The Havens are not heaven but the Grey Havens (Mithlond) on the coast west of the Shire. From here Elves who are weary of life in the mortal lands of Middle Earth take ship and sail to the Undying Lands. So it is the departure point rather than the destination.

In Tolkien's universe there is an overall creator"god" Eru but the world is governed by angels or demigods called the Valar aided by less powerful beings of the same type called the Maiar. They have specific areas of responsibility like the Norse gods or the gods of Greece and Rome and live in the Undying lands, a sort of Paradise.

One of the Valar is called Namo or Mandos and he deals with judgement. When a elf dies his spirit is summoned to the halls of Mandos. If he refuses the call he will remain as a disembodied spirit - basically a ghost. If he accepts the call he will be judged by Mandos and spend and appointed time in his halls contemplating the deeds of his life and when appropriate will be given a new body and live again in the Undying lands. The Halls of Mandos are a kind of purgatory. Only one elf has returned to Middle Earth having died and gone to Mandos and that is Glorfindel.

It is more complicated than this because it is based on information and writings that weren't published by Tolkien in his lifetime and he revised his ideas about what happened to slain elves but I am sure someone will correct me if I have gone wrong.

Spot on with your assumption. My knowledge about content not directly in the LOTR is pretty limited, although I've done some internet browsing to try and rectify that. Might be time to invest in the Silmarillion!

Thanks for your response. Got alot more than I bargained for!

In regards to Glorfindel, are you referring to the Elf-Lord in LOTR who assists Frodo in getting to Rivendell? Man I was so annoyed in the movies when they gave his bit to Arwen!

Your response to my question has led me to have more questions!

Does that mean that at the end of the LOTR, when Frodo is allowed to pass onto the Grey Havens, that he is also allowed to pass into the Undying Lands?

And is the Undying Lands strictly for Elves or can other races (i.e. Men, Dwarves) that die also pass into there? I guess what I'm trying to ask is whether the "Halls of Mandos" process is strictly for Elves or for all beings of Middle-Earth?

Apologise for the additional questions, especially since you were so generous with your response.

[Mithalwen]

I expected it to! HoweverIhave to go out in about 10 mins so this won't be as comprehensive as I would like until I get back (or someone adds in the mean time) .

The fates of Elves and Men are separate. Elves are immortal while the world lasts which is why they may return from Mandos. After the end of the world that might be it or Eru may have a plan for them they don't know. I think there are separate halls in Mandos for Men but their fate is not tied to the world - I'll need to get back to you on this needs too much checking up on details.

Yes that Glorfindel - he appears and dies in the Silmarillion.

Frodo and the ringbearers have special permission to go to the Undying lands but they don't become immortal. They just get a chance to heal and make a "good death". Sorry this is inadequate. Promise I'll return and fill in the gaps and any other questions if someone doesn't do a better job while I'm away!

[Bom Tombadillo]

Actually, I don't think Men go to the halls of Mandos; it says in the Sil that:

. . . dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor . . . But the sons of men die indeed and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or rhe Strangers.

[Galin]

Various statements to ponder (the word fear is the plural of the Elvish word fea, for anyone who might not know):

Silmarillion

'... and Mandos under Ilúvatar alone save Manwe knows wither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea.' <> 'But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers.'



Author's commentary on Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

7) 'Since Men die, without accident, and whether they will to do so or not, their fear must have a different relation to Time. The Elves believed, though they had no certain information, that the fear of Men, if disembodied, left Time (sooner or later), and never returned. (Authors note *4 ...)'

Note 4...

Sooner or later: because the Elves believed that the fear of dead Men also went to Mandos (without choice in the matter: their free will with regard to death was taken away). There they waited until they were surrendered to Eru. The truth of this is not asserted. No living Man was allowed to go to Aman. No fea of a dead Man ever returned to life in Middle-earth. To all such statements and decrees there are always some exceptions (because of the 'freedom of Eru'). Earendil reached Aman, even in the time of the Ban; but he bore the Silmaril recovered by his ancestress Lúthien, † and he was half-elven, he was not allowed to return to Middle-earth. Beren returned to actual life, for a short time; but he was not actually seen again by living Men.

Author's Notes on the Commentary to the Athrabeth, Morgoth's Ring

Letters of JRRT

'The Doom (or the Gift) of Men is mortality, freedom from the circles of the world ... (my edit) ... mortality is not explained mythically: it is a mystery of God of which no more is known than that 'what God has purposed for Men is hidden'.'

'Neither had they of course any special information concerning what 'death' portended for Men. They believed that it meant 'liberation from the circles of the World', and was in that respect to them enviable.'


I find note 4 especially interesting, so I quoted it 'specially' in a sense