One man's Orc is another man's Orocuen... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Anguirel · 03-29-2011, 04:04 PM

http://www.salon.com/books/laura_mil...rer/index.html

whadd'ya reckon?

I think it's probably quite badly written and I also expect it loses a certain amount in translation, but, supposing we leave lit aesthetix aside, things get rather interesting - both what this bloke has done, and why.

The souped up Barad-Dur sounds great:

"that amazing city of alchemists and poets, mechanics and astronomers, philosophers and physicians, the heart of the only civilization in Middle-earth to bet on rational knowledge and bravely pitch its barely adolescent technology against ancient magic."...

...especially intrigued by those Orcish poets. Or rather, Orocuen, for Orcs aren't a separate race after all, but an allied civilisation with a kool new name. It strikes me as quite a good one, a good ennoblement of the word "Orc" just as "yrch" is an excellent insulting degradation. I wonder if this version's linguistic skills are equally strong elsewhere.

Hobbits are out; Elves are in and the supervillains; Orcs are humanised. I can sort of understand where this is going. Oddly enough the kind of reader who feels uneasy with Tolkienian morality is often the kind who doesn't exactly get hobbits. I know because I am that kind of reader, and I find lots of hobbitry sentimental, mawkish, inappropriately comic, destructive to grandeur of tale &c. I know this is a fundamental misunderstanding, but I can see where this author is coming from. On the other hand Elves make very glamorous villains (as we see in the Silmarillion and most of the world's folk mythology) so they remain distinct, if inverted. Orcs are human to emphasise the (in any case tricky) genocide question.

Has anyone read this? I haven't downloaded it yet; I hope CTolk doesn't annihilate it. If you're reading, Chris, please slacken the frenzied basset hounds; thanks.

I think the reviewer's remarks on fan-fiction seem sensible and even quite encouraging...I suspect she's a closet sampler herself...perhaps even a writer...?

EDIT: have now downloaded; will return to this when have read some Actual Primary Material...

Galadriel55 · 03-29-2011, 04:27 PM

Why do I recall reading this article somewhere? Was there another thread about it?

It's an interesting idea, but I think that it would have worked better with the Haradrim or Easterings thn orcs. Not all orcs are as wise as Gorbag.

Anguirel · 03-29-2011, 04:42 PM

ach, I've been skimming it and it's a lot worse than my fears (though I quite like the puppet-Faramir, and Aragorn's helplessness in Arwen's hands, as ideas)...perhaps more profitable to discuss the theory than the practice...

The Might · 03-30-2011, 06:55 AM

Wait... what?

The idea sounds interesting, what if Eriol only heard the Elvish side of the story, but never that of the Orcs?

However, I'm not sure if I want to read this.

Nerwen · 03-31-2011, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Has anyone read this? I haven't downloaded it yet; I hope CTolk doesn't annihilate it. If you're reading, Chris, please slacken the frenzied basset hounds; thanks.

Er... you do know there's fan-fic out there where one of the hobbits (I forget which) has sex with Treebeard? I'm just saying...

Inziladun · 03-31-2011, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Er... you do know there's fan-fic out there where one of the hobbits (I forget which) has sex with Treebeard? I'm just saying...

And probably basset hounds too, for that matter.

To me, toying with the point of view of the basic story is an interesting gimmick, but nothing more. It isn't believable for me for Sauron to be "good" in any way, at least by the time of the Third Age. I wonder how he'd explain the mass decapitations of Gondorian soldiers whose heads were tossed over the walls of Minas Tirith during the war, or his imprisoning of Thráin the Dwarf in Dol Guldur, etc.

Galadriel55 · 03-31-2011, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I wonder how he'd explain the mass decapitations of Gondorian soldiers whose heads were tossed over the walls of Minas Tirith during the war, or his imprisoning of Thráin the Dwarf in Dol Guldur, etc.

They just made it all up to make orcs seem cruel, rutheless, ugly, etc! Orcs are really gentle empathetic creatures that are just misunderstood.

As for Thrain, didn't he stay there as an honoured guest on his free will? It's not anyone's fault that he took a strong dose of halucinogen with his drink...

03-29-2011, 04:04 PM	#1
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	One man's Orc is another man's Orocuen... http://www.salon.com/books/laura_mil...rer/index.html whadd'ya reckon? I think it's probably quite badly written and I also expect it loses a certain amount in translation, but, supposing we leave lit aesthetix aside, things get rather interesting - both what this bloke has done, and why. The souped up Barad-Dur sounds great: "that amazing city of alchemists and poets, mechanics and astronomers, philosophers and physicians, the heart of the only civilization in Middle-earth to bet on rational knowledge and bravely pitch its barely adolescent technology against ancient magic."... ...especially intrigued by those Orcish poets. Or rather, Orocuen, for Orcs aren't a separate race after all, but an allied civilisation with a kool new name. It strikes me as quite a good one, a good ennoblement of the word "Orc" just as "yrch" is an excellent insulting degradation. I wonder if this version's linguistic skills are equally strong elsewhere. Hobbits are out; Elves are in and the supervillains; Orcs are humanised. I can sort of understand where this is going. Oddly enough the kind of reader who feels uneasy with Tolkienian morality is often the kind who doesn't exactly get hobbits. I know because I am that kind of reader, and I find lots of hobbitry sentimental, mawkish, inappropriately comic, destructive to grandeur of tale &c. I know this is a fundamental misunderstanding, but I can see where this author is coming from. On the other hand Elves make very glamorous villains (as we see in the Silmarillion and most of the world's folk mythology) so they remain distinct, if inverted. Orcs are human to emphasise the (in any case tricky) genocide question. Has anyone read this? I haven't downloaded it yet; I hope CTolk doesn't annihilate it. If you're reading, Chris, please slacken the frenzied basset hounds; thanks. I think the reviewer's remarks on fan-fiction seem sensible and even quite encouraging...I suspect she's a closet sampler herself...perhaps even a writer...? EDIT: have now downloaded; will return to this when have read some Actual Primary Material... Last edited by Anguirel; 03-29-2011 at 04:08 PM.

03-29-2011, 04:27 PM	#2
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,360	Why do I recall reading this article somewhere? Was there another thread about it? It's an interesting idea, but I think that it would have worked better with the Haradrim or Easterings thn orcs. Not all orcs are as wise as Gorbag. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

03-29-2011, 04:42 PM	#3
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	ach, I've been skimming it and it's a lot worse than my fears (though I quite like the puppet-Faramir, and Aragorn's helplessness in Arwen's hands, as ideas)...perhaps more profitable to discuss the theory than the practice... __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso

03-30-2011, 06:55 AM	#4
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	Wait... what? The idea sounds interesting, what if Eriol only heard the Elvish side of the story, but never that of the Orcs? However, I'm not sure if I want to read this. __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown