Physiques

[skytree]

Other than Forlong the Fat, it seems there were no plus size or large physique people in Middle Earth. Aragorn and Boromir were large, powerful men but neither were described as any more than what could be perceived as athletically built. Elf or Man, no one seemed to be described as massive, enormous, huge and its surprising since there were so many warriors in his work. Such men aren't common but they exist in significant numbers in our own world and would naturally seem to be drawn to a martial life.

[Alfirin]

Well is a very very long shot, but some Hobbit tales tell of great Giants who guard the Hight Rhovannion passes along with orcs. If we 1. beleive the hobbit stories are accurate. and 2. Assume these giants are men, as opposed to some other oversized race (like trolls) these may represent a race of oversized men. Given that hobbits are a smallish race, thier definiton of "giant" may likewise be a bit smaller than ours, an unusually tall race of men might fit. Aragorn and Boromir are both of Gondorian/Numernorian stock, with so much elf blood in the lines they may be an unusually gracile people and just not prone to getting a lot of really big people.

[Galadriel55]

Bombur definitely is "extra-large".

[Nerwen]

What about Helm Hammerhand?

[Galadriel55]

How about Beorn?

[skytree]

Just thinking of some old English Kings, you had kings like Edward Longshanks or Richard the Lionhearted who were tall, athletically built like Aragorn but you also had kings like Edward the IV, or Alexander III of Russia who had huge physiques and were very robust and know for their immense strength.

It just seems all of Tolkien's powerful warriors, whether it Turin or Aragorn are tall, graceful, and athletic. Imposing but with some Elf like quality. Surely, somewhere in the history of middle earth, there has to be a warrior paramount that was a robust, brutish figure.

I really don't think of Beorn, because it was the Hobbit and I think his nature will always be somewhat of a mystery even though Tolkien states he is a man. Helm, is really the only mention but even that is a brief narrative.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by skytree

It just seems all of Tolkien's powerful warriors, whether it Turin or Aragorn are tall, graceful, and athletic. Imposing but with some Elf like quality. Surely, somewhere in the history of middle earth, there has to be a warrior paramount that was a robust, brutish figure.

I'd agree that Tolkienien heroes tend to be "ectomorph" types... but you're not talking about the general picture, you're talking about "somewhere in the history of Middle-earth". We've supplied you with a couple of examples already, and you disallowed them using what I'd call special pleading ("Hobbit" characters don't count, briefly-appearing characters sort-of don't count...) Um... what does count?

[skytree]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I'd agree that Tolkienien heroes tend to be "ectomorph" types... but you're not talking about the general picture, you're talking about "somewhere in the history of Middle-earth". We've supplied you with a couple of examples already, and you disallowed them using what I'd call special pleading ("Hobbit" characters don't count, briefly-appearing characters sort-of don't count...) Um... what does count?

If you look at a literal description of Beorn, you could extrapolate that he was Goliath proportions, maybe 10-12 feet tall and it always seem he is dismissed because the Hobbit was meant to be a kids tale and Tolkien tried to fold it into the greater setting he created for Lord of the Rings.

Something more substantial for example than a paragraph which is basically all we hear about Helm. I've only scratched the surface on reading the Unfinished Tales or History of Middle Earth, that is why I am posting. If Helm is it, it seems odd that he was the only great warrior that had a robust physique.

[Inziladun]

The Men we see in the stories are mostly of Númenórean descent, or their distant relatives the Rohirrim. For the Númenóreans, perhaps the fact that it is said they had become the most like Elves of any Men had something to do with their tall, slim stature. The fact that Forlong was notable as "the Fat", seems to speak for the idea that obesity was a rarity for Gondor. Also, there could well be (and probably were) fighters in many of the great battles that were larger in girth than average. Since we as readers only see a tiny number of characters close-up though, the odds don't necessarily favour someone of "plus size" getting any notice.
We are told of some other races of Men that have a tendency to be smaller and stouter, though.

They are strong....countless companies of Men of a new sort that we have not met before. Not tall, but broad and grim, bearded like Dwarves, wielding great axes.

ROTK The Siege of Gondor

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by skytree

If you look at a literal description of Beorn, you could extrapolate that he was Goliath proportions, maybe 10-12 feet tall and it always seem he is dismissed because the Hobbit was meant to be a kids tale and Tolkien tried to fold it into the greater setting he created for Lord of the Rings.

Well, "always" there is pretty vague, skytree. Who is doing this dismissing?

Originally Posted by skytree

Something more substantial for example than a paragraph which is basically all we hear about Helm.

But that is enough to establish his existance, surely? I mean, your initial statement was:

Originally Posted by skytree

...it seems there were no plus size or large physique people in Middle Earth. Aragorn and Boromir were large, powerful men but neither were described as any more than what could be perceived as athletically built. Elf or Man, no one seemed to be described as massive, enormous, huge...

(my bolding)

Originally Posted by skytree

I've only scratched the surface on reading the Unfinished Tales or History of Middle Earth, that is why I am posting. If Helm is it, it seems odd that he was the only great warrior that had a robust physique.

Well, what about the "mighty" Erkenbrand? Or is he again disqualified as being only a minor character?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by skytree

It just seems all of Tolkien's powerful warriors, whether it Turin or Aragorn are tall, graceful, and athletic. Imposing but with some Elf like quality. Surely, somewhere in the history of middle earth, there has to be a warrior paramount that was a robust, brutish figure.

Húrin.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Húrin.

Hurin was the mightiest man, but not the tallest. In COH it says that he was actually a bit shorter than most men of his kind.

Huor his brother was tall, the tallest of all the Edain,save his own son Tuor only...~COH, The Childhood of Turin

I think the fact that people need to move a lot in ME prevents them from gaining too much fat. (Hobbits are a different matter.)

And talking about hobbits - Bullroarer Took, Pippin, and Merry are taller than the "standart".

[skytree]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, "always" there is pretty vague, skytree. Who is doing this dismissing?

Plenty on this forum for example. If you take the description on face value, that Bilbo was able to walk beneath a tunic that came down to Beorn's knees without ducking, that would put Beorn somewhere in the neighborhood of 12 feet tall or larger than a Troll. Certainly there are no other Men in his fiction that are giant but he states in a letter that he is human. It makes Beorn an anomaly like Tom Bombadil but many on this forum have argued its just the product of being a character in the Hobbit, that was meant to be a kids tale. Sort of like Bert, Tom, and Bill's portrayal as Trolls or the giants in the misty mountains.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

But that is enough to establish his existance, surely? I mean, your initial statement was:
(my bolding)

Are there others in his other writings? I am generally curious on the subject and haven't read any of the ancillary works.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, what about the "mighty" Erkenbrand? Or is he again disqualified as being only a minor character?

Never really thought about that but I guess there is a reference that he has Helm-like qualities.

[Galadriel55]

Skytree, if you're going to look only on "major" characters, you're not going to find much. Major characters are generally "normal" people that do extraordinary things. If Sam was a giant, it would be no surprise that orcs were afraid of him in the tower of Cirith Ungol. But he wasn't - and that made his deed something remarkable.

If you are looking for characters with a large body-build, you have to consider the "minor" characters too.

[skytree]

I understand that from a dramatic standpoint that has to hold true, that is why I was asking about the History of Middle Earth, which I haven't read yet.

I happen to be of Dutch descent from the area of Friesland. I think there is a genetic predisposition to be large in my ancestry. My grandfather was 6'8", my father 6'6", and I am 6'6" with the shortest of my siblings being a a sister of 5'11". I would characterize us as being "large boned" and not just tall. I could stand to be in better shape but I normally range 260-275 lbs.

In fact in the Friesan history we had a pirate Pier Gerloff Donia, who led a William Wallace style revolt against the Hapsburgs and from his armor is estimated to have been around 7' and 430 lbs. His greatsword was 7' and weighed 14.5 lbs. Obviously he was naturally large as 1500 was long before weight training.

I guess Tolkien's idea or image of a powerful warrior was tall and athletic like Elendil.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by skytree

I guess Tolkien's idea or image of a powerful warrior was tall and athletic like Elendil.

Yes, and no. ost warriors are like that, but as I said before, Hurin was the mightiest of mortal men, but he was shorter than most of his kind. And you can't be a good warrior if you aren't atheletic - you'd be killed in the first confrontation with an enemy.

You're right about Elendil, though - he's even called "the tall".

[skytree]

I don't know how athletic Grutte Pier was or if you would consider 430 lbs on a 7 footer athletic but he was certainly as strong as an ox and led a rebellion that ultimately failed in stopping the Habsburgs but he was never defeated and retired from the rebellion after 4 years.

His size and strength alone made him a formidable warrior.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by skytree

Other than Forlong the Fat, it seems there were no plus size or large physique people in Middle Earth. Aragorn and Boromir were large, powerful men but neither were described as any more than what could be perceived as athletically built. Elf or Man, no one seemed to be described as massive, enormous, huge and its surprising since there were so many warriors in his work. Such men aren't common but they exist in significant numbers in our own world and would naturally seem to be drawn to a martial life.

Partly I think different terms mean different things to different people. I mean I take athletically built as built like an athlete and in that rather depends on the discipline. A javelin thrower is going to be tall and powerful whereas a (middle) distance runner is going to be of a much slighter build and possibly only of medium height. So I would imagine Boromir described as both tall and strong to be rather larger that what I would think of as athletically built.. more like a Rugby player than a soccer player - but fit-weight not fat weight. Top rugby players can go up to 6"10 and 19 1/2 stone (273 lbs).

In UT it says how the Numenoreans had little cavalry because they had few horses that could bear men of their stature, certainly in armour.

So if you mean large as large (as in an oak tree is large compared to a birch)rather than as a gentler alternative to fat then I think there are people of large physiques other than exceptional characters such as Beorn. I do think there are few fat people (Barliman Butturbur is described so rather scornfully by Aragorn) because most of the characters are highly active and warriors in a time where food was not so freely available - either they are travelling and carrying there own rations or there may be rationing in force as seems to be the case in Minas Tirith when Pippin arrives. That kind of situation helps to keep the weight down even of those who are not naturally lean,

[Kuruharan]

...lets be honest about it, if one is ponderously overweight it tends to inhibit one's battle prowess just a bit.

While I would probably enjoy reading the saga of James the Morbidly Obese as he waddled about the field of glory during the Battle of Hind Quarters...my enjoyment of it would probably not be based on the heroic achievements of our rotund hero.

And what Mithalwen said.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by skytree

I guess Tolkien's idea or image of a powerful warrior was tall and athletic like Elendil.

In modern fighting, like MMA or Boxing, size and weight certainly is an advantage, but only up to a certain point. A champion heavy-weight boxer typically weighs in at around 90-100 kilos (190-220 lbs) and is almost never heavier than 115 kilos (255 lbs). Beyond that point the added power that comes with weight is overcome by the loss of mobility and stamina that also comes with the weight.

I would assume that this is also true when it comes to armed battle, man to man; perhaps even more so. Big is good, but too big is a problem.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Big is good, but too big is a problem.

It's not sumo wrestling.

[Galin]

Here's some (of my) ideas on relative tallness with respect to the period of the War of the Ring (the Numenoreans will have dwindled from 1150 TA when 'halfling' was coined). Please quibble if you like! I haven't set them all in stone for myself.

Good guys and bad guys

Hobbits: between 3 and 4 feet (Bullroarer and other notable hobbits excepted)

Dwarves: about 4 feet high at least (JRRT, late note)

Lesser orcs (snaga-types): 3.5 feet to 4.5 feet

Uruks: 4.5 to 5.5 feet and above -- that is, say a 5 foot 8 to 5 foot 10 inch Uruk being exceptionally huge for an orc (the 'huge' Orc-chieftain in Moria was almost 'man-high')

Gandalf: '... even bent must have been at least 5 ft. 6... Which would make him a short man even in modern England, especially with the reduction of a bent back.' (JRRT, late note)

Men in general, and Goblin-men or 'half-orcs': around 5 feet 10 to 6 feet, or 'man-high' (but not according to the measure of the Dunedain and the Men of old)

Men of high Numenorean lineage (includes Boromir): 6 feet 4 or 'man-high' according to the measure of the Dunedain and the Men of old. Includes Galadriel as well, and arguably Celeborn too.


The Rohirrim: '... were generally shorter, for in their far-off ancestry they had been mingled with men of broader and heavier build. Éomer was said to have been tall, of like height with Aragorn; but he with other descendants of King Thengel were taller than the norm of Rohan, deriving this characteristic (together in some cases with darker hair) from Morwen, Thengel's wife, a lady of Gondor of high Númenórean descent.' (Unfinished Tales)

I assume this means shorter than man-high according to the measure of the Dunedain -- but also I note what is said here of Éomer compared to text published years before: 'Éomer was like his fathers before him; but Éowyn was slender and tall, with a grace and pride that came to her out of the South from Morwen of Lossarnach, whom the Rohirrim had called Steelsheen.' (Appendix A) Éomer was Éomund's son of course, and Morwen's blood is traced through Théodwyn. I think 'his fathers before him' refers to Éomund's line (noting too that Théodwyn's father is Thengel, Morwen's husband). And seemingly in comparison -- interestingly, with mention of her physique -- it is rather Éowyn who gets noted traits from Morwen.


Aragorn: at least 6 foot 6 (noted by JRRT in reaction to an illustration)

Eldarin men: no less than 6 foot 6, and taller for some kings and leaders (noted by JRRT in reaction to an illustration)

Eldarin women: seldom less than 6 feet (noted by JRRT in reaction to an illustration)

Thingol, Turgon, and Argon seem be the tallest of the Children of Eru, despite that the Numenoreans, at their peak, were very tall of course. Maedros is nick-named the Tall, as well as Elendil -- but for Elendil there appears to be two variant (IMO) late descriptions regarding just how tall he was.





For the Eldar I chose a late note where Tolkien reacts to an illustration made by Pauline Baynes -- over another late description in Of Dwarves And Men where the Eldar appear to be generally taller. I have no real evidence as to which text came after the other, so my choice is rather based on my opinion: that I think one description better allows for more of Tolkien's late statements to fit together.

Compared to the height of Eldarin men noted above, for example, Of Dwarves and Men notes that: 'They were called 'Halflings'; but this refers to the normal height of Men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.'

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

And talking about hobbits - Bullroarer Took, Pippin, and Merry are taller than the "standart".

Merry and Pippin need asterisks next to their names, much like modern baseball players who have used human growth hormones or similar enhancing drugs. Ent droughts, you know...

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by blantyr

Merry and Pippin need asterisks next to their names, much like modern baseball players who have used human growth hormones or similar enhancing drugs. Ent droughts, you know...

But Bulroarer Took still counts. He didn't drink no Ent-draughts! Beer's good enough for him!

[Morthoron]

Let's not forget Isengrim the Dainty and Loadholt the Squat.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Bombur definitely is "extra-large".

I thought Will Whitfoot was pretty big, too

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

I thought Will Whitfoot was pretty big, too

I thought they were talking vertical size here. Otherwise, old Flourdumpling and Bombur the Dwarf might top Thingol himself.

[Firefoot]

Originally Posted by Galin

Aragorn: at least 6 foot 6 (noted by JRRT in reaction to an illustration)

Eldarin men: no less than 6 foot 6, and taller for some kings and leaders (noted by JRRT in reaction to an illustration)

Eldarin women: seldom less than 6 feet (noted by JRRT in reaction to an illustration)

Compared to the height of Eldarin men noted above, for example, Of Dwarves and Men notes that: 'They were called 'Halflings'; but this refers to the normal height of Men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.'

Anyone want to play some basketball?

[Galin]

The Eldar did not play basketball, because they could not stand anything 'foul'.

Ahem. sorry.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

The Eldar did not play basketball, because they could not stand anything 'foul'.

Sure they did. Nobody could ring a three-pointer like ElRond.

I always thought Gandalf to have been around "average" height for Men in Middle-earth, say about 5'11.

[Galin]

Yes 'at least 5 ft 6' is a bit surprising, but Gandalf was referred to as a 'little old man' in The hobbit too -- until a revision in 1966 anyway, when he became an old man, for whatever reason.

Gandalf doesn't appear to have embiggened much however, if at all, even noting the revision

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galin

The Eldar did not play basketball, because they could not stand anything 'foul'.

I would think they could play, they would just have to play very conservatively in order to avoid violating any rules.

[Galadriel55]

No, no, no. They learned enough about playing with round objects in the First Age.

As the saying goes, they prefer not to play with fi... balls.

[Galin]

Here's a question that no one yet at any other forum (those where I asked) has cared to comment on

But one never knows, so here goes: I'm wondering about an early conception, but I'm not sure one needs to have necessarily read The History of Middle-Earth series to comment: in very early description from The Book of Lost Tales:

'Tis written that in those days the fathers of the fathers of Men were of less stature than Men now are, and the children of Elfinesse of greater growth, yet was Tuor taller than any that stood there. Indeed the Gondothlim were not bent of back as some of their unhappy kin became, labouring without rest at delving and hammering for Melko, but small were they and slender and very lithe.'

JRRT, The Book of Lost Tales, The Fall of Gondolin

It's also noted that the Noldoli that came forth to see Tuor marvelled at his stature and gaunt limbs.


So, how do folks interpret that? Can it be used to guess how tall Tuor might be, and how small the Gnomes (Noldoli) were?

[Galadriel55]

Tuor remained very tall even in the published COH (see post#12)... As for the Noldoli, I guess they were smaller than the other Elves...

It could also mean that Tuor was broader and more, I guess, pillar-like. Elves were more elegant, perhaps, and the difference in height wasn't that great, just emphasised by these features...

I don't know. But that's my interpretation.

[Galin]

Thanks Galadriel! my first response and if I can ask a follow-up, do you (or anyone) think that this part...

'Tis written that in those days the fathers of the fathers of Men were of less stature than Men now are, and the children of Elfinesse of greater growth,...'

... means we can guess that Tuor was shorter than the average man of Tolkien's day, yet still taller than the Noldoli back when Gondolin existed?

Or is the reader not meant to employ this information in this way?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Galin

and if I can ask a follow-up, do you (or anyone) think that this part...


... means we can guess that Tuor was shorter than the average man of Tolkien's day, yet still taller than the Noldoli back when Gondolin existed?

It certainly seems so at first sight. Yet, when I think about it, The Sil isn't the book to compare "our" world with ME. TH has some comparissons, LOTR has very few, and mostly in the Shire chapters (eg, I remember something in FOTR about hobbits liking mushrooms even more than we do). But Sil seems strictly ME. If any comparisons are made, they are made with the SA and TA.

You said that it's a very early draft. So I'm guessing that at the time the Noldoli were more like Dwarves than Elves as we know them from the published works. Perhaps they were the shorter "kind" of Elves - compared to, say, the Vanyar (I don't know if Vanyar even existed at that stage...). And Men could be shorter than Men of the Second Age, for instance...

I don't know how to answer your question. I mean, it's clearly yes, but it's just not! It just doesn't work in the legendarium as I'm used to knowing it!

[Aiwendil]

means we can guess that Tuor was shorter than the average man of Tolkien's day, yet still taller than the Noldoli back when Gondolin existed?

That seems quite plainly to be the meaning, if you ask me - at least, that's how I've always interpreted it. But there is plenty of evidence that this early conception of short Men and short Elves, who diverged in height into taller Men and even shorter Elves, was abandoned in the post-LT period.

[Galin]

Thanks! and yes sometimes we must forget Middle-earth as we know it, when dealing with The Book of Lost Tales and other early texts.

Perhaps this statement could be from Eriol/Elfwine's point of view, and Eriol could arguably be comparing the stature of Men to his day -- if not Tolkien's day -- which might still imply that the Elves were shorter than Tolkien would imagine them later. If I remember correctly, there is a text referring to the awakening of Men which is also notable here, and description with respect to Beleg and Flinding lifting Turin.

And yes the Vanyar were around in this period -- or at least the 'germ' of the later Vanyar; although I think they were referred to as the Teleri if memory serves!