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#1 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion
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Can the Valar Sentence People to Death?
What I mean is, can they sentence Elves to death? I'm probably asking a stupid question, since I've possibly overlooked this aspect, but I'd like to know, thanks. I know they can curse them, but killing is another thing. Though I suppose because the Noldor were put under a curse they were killed.
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#2 |
Auspicious Wraith
Join Date: May 2002
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I don't remember anything in the text about this matter, but I'm sure they would not make such a decision without consulting Eru.
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#3 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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I don't recall any death penalties. Banishments, curses, imprisonments, other punishments, but not death. Though death can indeed be the consequesne of one of there.
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#4 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
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It is a slightly odd concept given the nature of Elvish life. If the Valar did such a thing they would in effect be confining them to Mandos for a period until their contemplation of their wrongdoing had brought them to a state of contrition such as they could be permitted to return to life and perhaps make atonement. Presumably the Valar could effect a similar confinement without having to actually execute a death sentence.
The doom of Mandos suggests to me that death is a consequence of their actions rather than a punishment for them. I wouldn' t like to make assumptions regarding Tolkien's attitude to the death penalty which was still used in England & Wales at the time he wrote LOTR certainly, however Gandalf's words to Frodo about Gollum were a factor settling my feelings on the matter. Certainly though the death penalty exists in Gondor - Faramir says his life will be forfeit for letting Frodo go and the "penalty of old" for Beregond's crimes but they are remitted. It just doesn't seem a likely scenario to me.
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#5 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Let's assume a scenario. Suppose Maglor just randomly turns up at Alqualondë (suspension of disbelief needed at this point) and starts shooting people. Will the Valar simply banish him again, or have him killed? You can assume he lost his mind, if you like ![]()
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#6 |
Auspicious Wraith
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Tulkas would tie him in knots and they'd wait for Eru to show up.
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#7 |
Pilgrim Soul
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Or if he were killed to stop him killing others, that isn't exactly sentencing to death - more a form of self defence, perhaps comparable to Grima being shot by the hobbits after murdering Saruman.
Sentence does imply some sort of trial and judgement, IMO.
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#8 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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I think Maglor would be either killed by the elves who defend themselves or imprisoned by the Valar (physically). I don't think they will banish him again, since it had no effect on him. What's the point of a punishent if it doesn't get the point across?
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#9 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jun 2007
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I'd say they sentenced a lot of people on Numenor to death.
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#10 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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That was Ilúvatar, though, not the Valar. Illustrating my above point, the Valar did not think they had the authority to render a summary judgment and kill the Númenóreans outright, even though Ar-Pharazôn and his men were a direct threat to the Elves in Aman. Instead, they handed the matter over to the "father" of the Children. I see the Valar as being more "nannies" to the Children, and not having ultimate authority as "parents".
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#11 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I think, since banishing the Noldor led to their death, why should the Valar stop there?
Okay, forget that. What if Eru came and said, "Do what you want with him." Not that he'd actually say that, or he'd say it very differently, but what then?
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#12 |
Auspicious Wraith
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Are you saying the Valar effectively killed those Noldor? That's going way too far, if you ask me!
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#13 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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If one follows the story, the Valar do not sentence anyone to death, not even Morgoth. Such punishment is always deferred to Eru, particularly in the case of the Children of Iluvatar. He who gives life is the one who can take it away.
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#14 |
Pittodrie Poltergeist
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This, a lot of children included.
Also I think they separated Melkor's spirit from his body which is a definition of killing him isn't it?
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#15 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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Also, Melkor was forced into the Void, but it is not said that his consciousness was affected, and the Valar were not by nature corporal beings in the first place. I don't think you can infer that Melkor was "killed". EDIT- Also had the thought that Melkor was not one of the Children, but was a peer of the Valar. Their bringing him to heel was much different than the prospect of their judging Elves, Men, or Dwarves.
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#16 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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The Valar didn't give life to the Children - so they can't take it away.
Zil - I agree with you completely on what you said about Morgoth.
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#17 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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As an aside: I would say Morgoth was killed; he incarnated himself and had become wedded to his body it seems, and was ultimately judged and executed.
This is arguably more explicit in Morgoth's Ring (and/or possibly Osanwe Centa) than in the Silmarillion. What the MR text might also say about Manwe or Eru here I don't remember however, and I don't have Myths Transformed at hand at the moment! Edit: here's the 'arguably more explicit' passage I was thinking of (found it on the net), but I know there's more in any case... Quote:
Last edited by Galin; 02-18-2011 at 10:45 PM. |
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#18 | ||
Gruesome Spectre
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I don't know which text was the preferred one from the Professor's point of view, but doesn't the Second Prophesy of Mandos refer to Melkor returning at the end as well?
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#19 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I would say that in Tolkien's world killing is the separation of body and spirit, rather than the reduction of spirit to nothing. Again I have to rely on quotations from the net (from Morgoth's Ring), but as far as Morgoth being physical...
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#20 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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The Valar didn't have to rip the body away from Morgoth. They couldn have just pushed him into the Void, and it is the Void, so nothing physical could be there. *Morgoth's body dissolves into emptiness*
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#21 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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On the 'Void' and Morgoth's fate...
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