Elven Cities

[Burzdol]

I've heard of Lothlorien, Mirkwood, and many other well known elven establishments, but are there any smaller elven towns?

[Earendilyon]

I assume you're talking about the time of the War of the Ring?
At that time, to only city of Elves left in Middle-Earth was/were the Grey Haven in the West. Besides the places indicated by you, there were Elves just wandering around, I asume, like the ones the four Hobbits met in the Shire.

[Lord of Angmar]

like the ones the four Hobbits met in the Shire.

That is a good point. The Elves that Frodo, Sam and Pippin (Merry was waiting for them in Buckland) ran into were High Elves of the Noldorin race, and probably wandered in the Northern part of Middle-earth for most of the Third Age, probably staying a good deal in Lothlorien or, especially, Rivendell.

There were a great many other Elven cities in the First and Second Ages. You can find information about them probably through the "Search" function or the Encyclopedia of Arda, if you wish to forgo reading Tolkien's books themselves.

[Earendilyon]

The Elves that Frodo, Sam and Pippin (Merry was waiting for them in Buckland) ran into

I stand corrected [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Silmiel of Imladris]

I thought those elves in the Shire were from Mirkwood for (Gildor I believe his name was) told of Gollum's escape or am I mistaken?

[Legolas]

Those elves were on their way to the Grey Havens.

[Finwe]

The Hobbits only found out about Gollum's escape in the Council of Elrond, and that too from Legolas, who had come from Mirkwood.

[Gil-numen]

What about the Avari? They might have large cities, especially the Kindreds of Morwe and Nurwe (from HoME X).

------------------------------

"The dead have been summoned"
Elladan to Gimli

[Maerbenn]

Legolas wrote:

Those elves were on their way to the Grey Havens.

From The Road Goes Ever On:

No doubt Gildor and his companions (Vol. I., Chap. 3), since they appear to have been going eastward, were Elves living in or near Rivendell returning from the palantír of the Tower Hills. On such visits they were sometimes rewarded by a vision, clear but remote, of Elbereth, as a majestic figure, shining white, standing upon the mountain Oiolosse (S. Uilos).

[lindil]

The closest the Avari would have come to having a large city was probably mixed in with the Silvan and Sindarin Elves in Thranduil's realm.

JRRT in many and oft conflicting writings re: the Avari generally tends to depict them as wilder and less civilized, and in one scrap in HoM-E XI it mentions 8 or so clans.

here is an extraxt from discussion re: a now abandoned 'Complete Guide to Tolkien's Legendarium', consisting mostly of extracts from an article I currently have no link for by Michael Martinez:

from MM's wild, wild, wood-elves west article.


...Hence, it seems reasonable that the Tatyar who remained in Middle-earth were equally divisive, and Tolkien notes that they were more contentious with the Eldar than were the Nelyarin Avari. The Tatyarin Avari felt their Amanic cousins were too haughty. The Tatyarin Avari are thus good candidates for comprising the various "tribes" the Eldar documented in Beleriand and Eriador: the kindi, cuind, hwenti, windan, and kinn-lai. The penni settled in the Vales of Anduin, and they in fact spoke the "Wood-elven" language. They also were friendlier to the Eldar, especially the Sindar who eventually settled in the Vales of Anduin.

What became of the Tatyar? Some actually reached Beleriand and lived in the hills and great forests of the south where few if any of the Eldar ever ventured. Some also happened to merge with Nandor. In fact, Tolkien suggests at one point that some of the Green-Elves of Ossiriand (those Nandor who were led by Denethor, son of Lenwe, to Beleriand) were in fact Avari, Tatyarin Avari. After Denethor's death some of his people left Ossiriand and settled in Arthorien, the southeastern march of Doriath. These were called the Guest-elves, and some of them appear to have been Tatyarin Elves in origin.

Unfortunately Tolkien doesn't associate any of the names of Avarin clans with geographical regions. Perhaps a linguistic analysis might reveal some hints of who settled where, but that is all beyond me. It does appear, however, that the Tatyar who didn't settle in Beleriand ended up in Eriador. These clans may have merged with the few Nandor who remained in Eriador after Denethor's great migration to Beleriand. If that was the case, the Tatyarin Avari and Nandor must have become virtually indistinguishable, and they would have perhaps remained the largest population in Eriador until late in the First Age. Most of them were probably destroyed or driven to seek refuge in Lindon during the War of the Elves and Sauron.

But that leaves the Penni. They somehow got up the gumption to wander westward, too, and probably the entire nation of Nelyarin Avari became the Penni. That is not to say they couldn't have had a few drop off and put down roots here and there. For example, people have often wondered who the Dorwinions were. The name "Dorwinion" occurs in two sources: "Lay of the Children of Hurin", where a potent wine is brought from Dorwinion by the Dwarves of Nogrod to Doriath; and The Hobbit, where the Wood-elves of Mirkwood import wine from their kin in the south, in the land of Dorwinion (actually, it's not clear what the southern Elves exported to Mirkwood, since Tolkien writes "the wine, and other goods, were brought from far away, from their kinsfolk in the South, or from the vineyards of Men in distannt lands").

Tolkien told Pauline Baynes to place Dorwinion on the northwestern shores of the Sea of Rhun, and every cartographer to follow her has accordingly done the same, though the name doesn't appear in any of the canonical LOTR maps. Christopher Tolkien was puzzled by this placement, since "Lay of the Children of Hurin" speaks of the "heats of the South", but it does seem logical that -- if Dorwinion is an Elven land -- it be placed somewhere near the path followed by the Elves on their westward journeys. They all seem to have wandered along the northern shores of whatever sea lay in the region (the old sea, Helcar, vanished in the turmoils at the end of the First Age, and all that remained of it was the sea of Rhun).

Without a more double checking I am hesitant to say that all references above were really JRRT's last thoughts on any given point, but they at least collect together alot of the more obscure points of Elven history and geographical locations [at one time at least] of some of the Avari/Silvan Elves.

Dorwinion is another possible Elven center, though this is inconclusive. I do not have time at the moment but there was a year or so ago a very long discussion on it.

[Galin]

Some descriptions according to Quendi And Eldar (1959-1960, noted as Q&E below). But see below where I think it's at least possible that Tolkien might have rejected certain ideas.

Avari in Beleriand (Q&E)

Somewhat later the Sindar became aware of Avari, who had crept in small and secret groups into Beleriand from the South. (...)

The Avari thus remained the chief examples of Moerbin. Any individual Avar who joined with or was admitted among the Sindar (it rarely happened) became a Calben; but the Avari in general remained secretive, hostile to the Eldar, and untrustworthy; and they dwelt in hidden places in the deeper woods, or in caves (...)

Such Avari as came into Beleriand were, as has been said, called Morben, or Mornedhel. (...)

Eol was a Mornedhel, and is said to have belonged to the Second Clan (whose representatives among the Eldar were the Ñoldor* [footnote by CJRT]


*It is curious that - as in the original text of Maeglin, where he was 'of the kin of Thingol' - in my father's very late work on the story Eol becomes again 'one of the Eldar' (p. 328), though consumed with hatred of the Ñoldor; whereas here he is a Mornedhel (one of the Avari), and moreover of the aboriginal Second Clan.'

Vale of Anduin (Q&E)

The first Avari that the Eldar met again in Beleriand seem to have claimed to be Tatyar, who acknowledged their kinship with the Exiles, though there is no record of their using the name Ñoldo in any recognizable Avarin form. They were actually unfriendly to the Ñoldor, and jealous of their more exalted kin, whom they accused of arrogance. (...)

For in contrast the Lindarin elements in the western Avari were friendly to the Eldar, and willing to learn from them; and so close was the feeling of kinship between the remnants of the Sindar, the Nandor, and the Lindarin Avari, that later in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin they often became merged together.

They had evidently continued to call themselves *kwendī, the People, regarding those who went away as deserters (...) The Avarin forms cited by the Loremasters were: kindi, cuind, hwenti, windan, kinn-lai, penni. The last is interesting as showing the change kw > p. This might be independent of the Common Telerin change; but it suggests that it had already occurred among the Lindar before the Separation. The form penni is cited as coming from the 'Wood-elven' speech of the Vale of Anduin, and these Elves were among the most friendly to the fugitives from Beleriand, and held themselves akin to the remnants of the Sindar.

So here the Lindarin, or Nelyarin Avari, appear to have merged with the Elves of the Anduin Vale, and even in Eriador. Above we have Eol being one of the Tatyarin Avari (the Second Clan), but this appears to have been rejected later. In Words, Phrases and Passages (without checking I think this section might have been written around the same time as Quendi and Eldar):

'Avari would not, at this period, be found West of the Misty Mountains. In Eriador such Elves as remained, or were gathered under the protection of Elrond, were either Nandor, or else Sindar and Noldor...'

Although 'at this period' (Frodo's time I as I interpret the fuller passage) may leave the possibility open that some Avari had crossed over Eriador long ago to make it into Beleriand, and that some still survived in Eriador up until some point before the period of the Quest of the One Ring.


Avari in Beleriand according to Of Dwarves And Men (1968 or later)

'It is doubtful if any of the Avari ever reached Beleriand or were actually known to the Numenoreans.'

Christopher Tolkien footnotes this statement to compare it to the earlier description in Quendi And Eldar. There is also the question of Avari in the Anduin Vale. In Of Dwarves And Men is found the classification of Elves by the Atani (not the same as the classifications made by the Elves themselves however):

High Elves: returned Noldor
Middle Elves: Sindar
Dark Elves: those who had never marched to the Western Shores and did not desire to see Aman.

According to this the 'Dark Elves' seem like the Avari to me, and it is noted that the Silvan Elves were Middle Elves according to the Numenoreans, although unknown to the Atani until later days, as they were like the Sindar Teleri...

'... but were laggards in the hindmost companies who had never crossed the Misty Mountains and established small realms on either side of the vales of Anduin. (of these Lorien and the realm of Thranduil in Mirkwood were later survivors in the Third Age).'

So the Silvan Elves are Middle Elves, as they are Teleri, not 'Dark Elves' according to Men at least. And that the Silvan Elves are Telerin in origin is repeated in other late notes, including Appendix A to The History of Galadriel And Celeborn, The Silvan Elves And Their Speech: here the Silvan Elves are...

'... specifically declared to be descended from the Telerin Elves who remained in the Vale of Anduin.' [and they] '... hid themselves in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty Mountains, and became small and scattered people hardly to be distinguished from Avari.'

Unfinished Tales

But 'hardly to be distinguished' from Avari seemingly yet distinguishes them. Were they later joined by Avari in any case?


So from Q&E Avari ever having been in Beleriand seems rejected (as well as Eol being an Avar from the Second Clan). And whether or not they had been in Eriador seems a bit unclear in my opinion (so far), but at least there were seemingly none in Frodo's day. And whether or not any of the Avarin Penni, for example, ultimately merged with these Teleri in the Anduin Vale does not seem to be mentioned in later texts, that I recall so far anyway.

There may be more texts to help sort things out. Anyone? One could easily enough say that Quendi And Eldar is the more detailed account, and that other later texts about the Silvan Elves simply leave out this detail, but it remains at least possible, I think (again if nothing else surfaces that I've forgotten), that Tolkien maybe later abandoned the idea of any Avari here.

According to The Lord of the Rings the 'East-elves' of Mirkwood and Lorien (there said to not be Eldar, but yet the East-elves are not said to be Avari specifically) seemingly can sail West Over Sea, considering Nimrodel and other Silvan Elves for example.

Would a true Avarin Elf, a 'Refuser', desire this, even if allowed? But again, being able to sail, or desiring to anyway, may be true of the East-elves in general, while a more detailed conception possibly includes some Nelyarin Avari...

... or not

[Alfirin]

I would say that, based on the Hobbit quote, the Dorwinian elves would have had to have at least a small city. If nothing else, the very nature of the trade between themselves and thier Northern kinsman would more or less require somewhere where goods could be centralized for export; somewhere big enough to have the space for the large harbor quay/dock system needed to support a trading fleet. Either that, or the Elves in Dorwinion would have to be on such good terms with the men that it was feasible for elves to use Mannish cities and Mannish ships to ship thier goods (i.e. the shipping cities of Dorwinion would have to be integrated, with elves and men living more or less side by side something we usually don't see in ME.)

[Findegil]

But from the Hobbit it is clear that the Elves of Mirkwood did not trade farther as Esgaroth. The Trade up and down the Celduin was done by manish ships.

This man that the relam of Dorwinion (equaliy if it were Elves or Men who settled there) had not to tarde directly with Mirkwood. Nonetheless a central point of trade would be needed and it would be mostprobably be a city in Dorwinion, probably the capital.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Findegil

But from the Hobbit it is clear that the Elves of Mirkwood did not trade farther as Esgaroth. The Trade up and down the Celduin was done by manish ships.

This man that the relam of Dorwinion (equaliy if it were Elves or Men who settled there) had not to tarde directly with Mirkwood. Nonetheless a central point of trade would be needed and it would be mostprobably be a city in Dorwinion, probably the capital.

Respectfully
Findegil

That's true, but the point I was trying to make was that the elves would have had to have somewhere in Dorwinion where they goods they made were sent to be sent on to Esgaroth. Either there has to be an elven city where the varios elven farmers and craftsmen could send their goods for the men to pick up or relations between Dorwinion elves and Dorwinion men would have to be so good that elves would have been comfortable entering some mannish city (as you said, probably the capital) on a very regular basis, which would probably mean at least a few elves actually LIVING in the city alongside men. And giving the behavior most of the other elven groups show with regards to associating with men, Elves living cheek to cheek with men anywhere just doesn't seem likely (the elven habit of simply sending the empties down the river to wash up in Dale (as opposed to say, sending them back on their own ships, or letting men of dale come and pick them up at Mirkwood, seems to idicate a tendency even here to have as little actual contact with non-elves as possible while still getting the wine and goods they wanted). The only other option I can see that doesn't involve either of the above two is Dorwinion having men traders who were actually permitted by the elves to visit them on a regular basis to pick up thier goods, again an unusally close relationship of man and elf by ME standards.

[Galin]

Legolas wrote: 'Those elves were on their way to the Grey Havens.'

Maerbenn responded: 'From The Road Goes Ever On No doubt Gildor and his companions (Vol. I., Chap. 3), since they appear to have been going eastward, were Elves living in or near Rivendell returning from the palantír of the Tower Hills. On such visits they were sometimes rewarded by a vision, clear but remote, of Elbereth, as a majestic figure, shining white, standing upon the mountain Oiolosse (S. Uilos).'

Ultimately I don't disagree that RGEO arguably provides the most direct answer here, and I think I would end up giving it the most weight. That said, I did some digging, as to my mind the chapter in which we meet Gildor and Company seems to suggest that these High Elves were wanderers from Lindon.

From the drafts for The Lord of the Rings:

Phase I

Bingo says of Elves: 'They don't really live here, though; but they often come across the river in spring and autumn.'

The Elves say [in part]: 'But we have no need of other company, and Hobbits are so dull,' they laughed. 'Come along now, tell us about it! We see you are simply swelling with secrets we should like to hear. Though some we know, of course, and some we guess. Many Happy Returns of yesterday -- we have heard all about that, of course, from the Rivendell people.' (note 17)

Gildor says: 'We are Wise-elves, and the elves of Rivendell are our kinsfolk* (note 18). But I note Christopher Tolkien's, commentary:

'The striking out of Gildor's words 'for the matter is outside the concern of such Elves as we' (note 27) is interesting. At first, I think, my father thought of these Elves as 'Dark Elves'; but he now decided that they (and also the Elves of Rivendell) were indeed 'High Elves of the West', and he added in Gildor's words to Bingo...'

So I would guess, at this point, not Elves from Rivendell, if still from 'across the river'.

Phase II

the Elves arrive: 'out of their own lands far beyond the river'

Phase III

same as phase II

Phase IV

I could find no mention of any pertinent revision to this chapter, but with respect to another chapter, Christopher Tolkien comments:

'Here the text breaks off. That Glorfindel should have set out after Gandalf reached Rivendell is at variance with the time-schemes (p. 14) and this brief draft must have preceded them. Abandoned in mid-sentence, it was replaced by another very close to what Glorfindel says in FR: he had left Rivendell nine days before; Gandalf had not then come; and Elrond had sent out from Rivendell not on account of Gandalf but because he had had news from Gildor's people -- 'some of our kindred journeying beyond the Branduin (which you turned into Brandywine)'.

This too was revised a bit for the published account it seems, as Glorfindel says: 'Elrond received news that troubled him. Some of my kindred, journeying in your land beyond the Baranduin, learned that things were amiss, and sent messages as swiftly as they could.'


But here I think that neither phrasing necessarily need mean that Glorfindel's kin had journeyed beyond the Brandywine from Rivendell [or near it], as they could simply mean that Elrond received news from other High Elves who happened to be journeying beyond the Brandywine.



In any case, looking at the four phases I can't tell exactly when 'far beyond the river' was revised to...

'... out of their own lands away beyond the Tower Hills'

... as in the final, published version.

I suppose the 'river' could mean a river other than the Brandywine, but I gave up searching for clues about that, as to my mind the implication of this last revision is that these Elves, while High Elves and kin to those of Rivendell, were not actually from, or living near, Rivendell. Okay, 'implication' at least.

So what about The Road Goes Ever On?

Perhaps Tolkien...

A) ... forgot what he had arguably implied in this early chapter in the published text, and so, in a sense he re-characterized Gildor and Company to be on a journey from [or near] Rivendell. RGEO was written much later than The Fellowship of the Ring, but who knows.

B) ... did not forget what he had published, but felt that Frodo could still be correct even if the Elves he was now meeting turned out to be High Elves from Rivendell. How could Frodo really know for certain, after all, at the point when he makes this comment.

C) ... wrote 'no doubt' meaning that he thinks so as translator, but not as author.


Gildor, if from near or in Rivendell, doesn't seem to have seen Bilbo much in any event: Bilbo said farewell to Gildor on the spot where Frodo and Gildor later converse, for instance, and: 'But I saw him once again, far from here.' But also, Gildor arrives with Elrond and Galadriel, on the way West, in the chapter The Grey Havens too.

Hmm. I suppose Gildor, if from Lindon, could have simply been in Rivendell at the start of this journey, or even planned it that way. On the other hand I suppose Gildor, if from Rivendell, could be talking of his own company when he says: '(...) But some of our kinsfolk dwell still in peace in Rivendell.'



Heheh, unless I'm missing something obvious here [in which case never mind] another question that seems to have more than one answer. As I say, despite Frodo's comment [he being a character in the book of course] about the Tower Hills, perhaps the most definitive for me so far would be the description from The Road Goes Ever On, as at least it looks at the question rather directly, and 'no doubt' is strong enough phrasing in another sense, despite C) above.


But then again, if JRRT simply forgot Frodo's arguable suggestion in the chapter where the reader actually meets these Elves, he might more easily say 'no doubt' in RGEO!

Or something

[Nerwen]

Alfirin, why do you think there were Elves in Dorwinion? I can't recall anything about that. Though it's been a while since I've read "The Hobbit".

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Alfirin, why do you think there were Elves in Dorwinion? I can't recall anything about that. Though it's been a while since I've read "The Hobbit".

As I said in my quote of the 22nd of last year, it's sort of implied. We know the elves of Mirkwood like the wine of Dorwinion, and we know that, in general, elves do not generally like to have much contact with men or other non elves, especially with regards to the elves of Mirkwood (hence, as I said, why they are simply tossing empty barrels into the river and letting the current take them down, as opposed to say loading them on a raft or a ship (they live on a big river, so they presumably make at least some use of it) and sailing them down. So there really seem to be only 3 possibilites on how the full wine barrels GET to Mirkwood 1. there are men whom the Mirkwood elves trust enough to let them sail into Mirkwood to drop them off 2. The Mirkwood elves are in the habit of regularly sailing down to Esagaroth themselves to pick the wine up or 3. There are elves in Dorwinion to take the wine on board, sail it to Mirkwood then sail back (assuming that the trasport of the empty barrels from Esgaroth to wherever they go (presumably back to Dorwinion to be refilled.) is accomplished by men. I also seem to recall some quote (don't know where) that while wine was the main thing being taken into Mirkwood from Dorwinion, there were other goods from there some of which were specifically referred to as being of elven make. In short, it boils down to, if the elves do not allow men to come to Mirkwood, and do not travel to Esgaroth themselves, then there has to be some other sort of elven presence, or there is NO WAY to get the wine IN. The men of Esgaroth can be sending full barrels back in the river for at least three good reasons. 1. the wine is probably too expensive to risk the losses caused by letting them find there way there 2. Full barrels would sink and 3. Rivers only flow one way under normal circumstances.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

As I said in my quote of the 22nd of last year, it's sort of implied. We know the elves of Mirkwood like the wine of Dorwinion, and we know that, in general, elves do not generally like to have much contact with men or other non elves, especially with regards to the elves of Mirkwood (hence, as I said, why they are simply tossing empty barrels into the river and letting the current take them down, as opposed to say loading them on a raft or a ship (they live on a big river, so they presumably make at least some use of it) and sailing them down. So there really seem to be only 3 possibilites on how the full wine barrels GET to Mirkwood 1. there are men whom the Mirkwood elves trust enough to let them sail into Mirkwood to drop them off 2. The Mirkwood elves are in the habit of regularly sailing down to Esagaroth themselves to pick the wine up or 3. There are elves in Dorwinion to take the wine on board, sail it to Mirkwood then sail back (assuming that the trasport of the empty barrels from Esgaroth to wherever they go (presumably back to Dorwinion to be refilled.) is accomplished by men. I also seem to recall some quote (don't know where) that while wine was the main thing being taken into Mirkwood from Dorwinion, there were other goods from there some of which were specifically referred to as being of elven make. In short, it boils down to, if the elves do not allow men to come to Mirkwood, and do not travel to Esgaroth themselves, then there has to be some other sort of elven presence, or there is NO WAY to get the wine IN. The men of Esgaroth can be sending full barrels back in the river for at least three good reasons. 1. the wine is probably too expensive to risk the losses caused by letting them find there way there 2. Full barrels would sink and 3. Rivers only flow one way under normal circumstances.

But the Mirkwood Elves do travel to Esgaroth. They form the empty barrels into rafts and ride them downriver. Not only that, but they dine with the Lake-men while they're there. And Esgaroth itself is where the barrels are refilled. This is all in the chapters "Barrels out of Bond " and "A Warm Welcome".

If, however, there *is* a quote about elven-made goods from Dorwinion, that would of course change everything. I haven't been able to find it, though.

[Inziladun]

The quote to which Alfirin refers may be this one, from Barrels Out of Bond:

The wine, and other goods, were brought from far away, from [the Wood-elves'] kinsfolk in the South, or from the vineyards of Men in distant lands.

The wine later was said to have been "of the great gardens of Dorwinion", and to me, in the context of the earlier quote, would indicate that those at Dorwinion were Men. Since that was so near the Sea of Rhûn, a place that was not especially hospitable to the West, it's difficult to picture Elves living there. Perhaps there was a settlement of them near the confluence of the Carnen and the River Running, northwest of Dorwinion, though that's mere speculation.

[Alfirin]

Okay okay, I screwed up. So the Mirkwood elves do visit Esgaroth from time to time, and the fact that they are willing to eat with men probably means they're comfortable enough to let them visit Mirkwood to re-deliver the full barrels, or, at least to borrow ships for the return journey The river flow thing is still there, if the tide brings the barrels down, you need a boat to bring them back up, unless the elves pole the whole way back. And even them, you'd need a raft apart from the empty barrels,a raft made of full ones would presumably sink (unless the elves have all of the barrels only filled about half way, so there is enough air left to keep them bouyant.

[jallanite]

Or raft-elves from Mirkwood travelled to Esgaroth (often with empty barrels floating on the river) and purchased the full barrels of wine there, then returning to their homes in Mirkwood on their rafts with the barrels. Full barrels of wine historically travelled on boats or rafts and I don’t see why Tolkien should have imagined anything different in Middle-earth.

There is no tide involved. Rivers and lakes are not large enough to have appreciable tides.

[Alfirin]

Tides no, but they do have a current

[MCRmyGirl4eva]

About the Elves that Frodo, Sam, and Pippin met in the Shire; I've been wondering but never thought to ask because it seemed trivial. Would the little fort that they stayed at overnight count as a dwelling, or more of an outpost? It just seems to me that the Elves have so few places to claim as homes, and I want to count it as a small colony or such but they were only passing through.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by MCRmyGirl4eva

About the Elves that Frodo, Sam, and Pippin met in the Shire; I've been wondering but never thought to ask because it seemed trivial. Would the little fort that they stayed at overnight count as a dwelling, or more of an outpost? It just seems to me that the Elves have so few places to claim as homes, and I want to count it as a small colony or such but they were only passing through.

It was probably only a place the Elves simply knew of and liked to use as a camping spot, being relatively secluded. No doubt they had other similar spots in the Shire too.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It was probably only a place the Elves simply knew of and liked to use as a camping spot, being relatively secluded. No doubt they had other similar spots in the Shire too.

That, and a Starbucks was close-by. It is a little known fact that Maedhros first mixed a caramel latte macchiato. One-handed yet!

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

That, and a Starbucks was close-by. It is a little known fact that Maedhros first mixed a caramel latte macchiato. One-handed yet!

The Hobbits claim they invented Starbucks. It was old Barista Caffeinebottom down in the Marish who grew the first coffee beans. How he came by the plant he never said....

And...6000 posts! Milestone!

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The Hobbits claim they invented Starbucks. It was old Barista Caffeinebottom down in the Marish who grew the first coffee beans. How he came by the plant he never said....

And...6000 posts! Milestone!

Congrats, Inzil! And to think, your 6000th post was one of great import and profundity. I am in awe.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Congrats, Inzil! And to think, your 6000th post was one of great import and profundity. I am in awe.

Indeed!

But congrats, Zil! 6K is quite a number! (Voice in head whispers: like the Riders of Rohan to Minas Tirith!)

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Well, if it wasn't for that twit Saruman distracting
him he could have had 10,000 by now.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Burzdol

I've heard of Lothlorien, Mirkwood, and many other well known elven establishments, but are there any smaller elven towns?

Other than the two you name, there was Ost-In-Edhil near the Moria Gates is a ruined, former Elven stronghold. We had Rivendell, Forlindon, Harlindon (north west and south west corners of the Gulf of Lhun) and the Grey Havens, where Cirdan had a stronghold.

I don't know of any other settlements, though Middle Earth is big, and there were several other forested areas. Have a look for Eryn Vorn, a promising cite, south of Harlindon (south Lindon). It was on the coast in the former Cardolan (Arnor) and not being far from Lindon, it may have had some Elvish folk.

I don't know what happened to all the Avari.

cheers
Ivrininiel

[Findegil]

Waht we know of Eryn Vorn does not sound very promissing for an Elven settelment to be found there ["Unfinished Tales";]:

The native people were fairly numerous and warlike, but they were forest-dwellers, scattered communities without central leadership. They were in awe of the Númenóreans, but they did not become hostile until the tree-felling became devastating. Then they attacked and ambushed the Númenóreans when they could, and the Númenóreans treated them as enemies, and became ruthless in their fellings, giving no thought to husbandry or replanting. The fellings had at first been along both banks of the Gwathló, and timber had been floated down to the haven (Lond Daer); but now the Númenóreans drove great tracks and roads into the forests northwards and south¬wards from the Gwathló, and the native folk that survived fled from Minhiriath into the dark woods of the great Cape of Eryn Vorn, south of the mouth of the Baranduin, which they dared not cross, even if they could, for fear of the Elvenfolk. From Enedwaith they took refuge in the eastern mountains where afterwards was Dunland; they did not cross the Isen nor take refuge in the great prom¬ontory between Isen and Lefnui that formed the north arm of the Bay of Belfalas [Ras Morthil or Andrast: see p. 224, note 6] because of the "Púkel-men"....

Respectfully
Findegil

[Ivriniel]

Not convinced. Especially since they feared the Elven folk, and given the long timespans since that time of the Numenorean influence. We're talking thousands of years.

Although, the Elves were a dwindling peoples and I don't know that they had anything other than a seclusionist policy and dwelled together in their few and small realms in Middle Earth at the end of the Third Age.

We still know nothing at all about the Avari, who would have remained very unlikely to have done anything but dwell in Middle Earth.

Is there anything in Letters about Elven settlements?

[gondowe]

In Words, Phrases and Passages in TLOTR, published in PE17 by the root MBAR, under the stem Q:ambar metta, there's a simple description of the dwellings of the Eldar basically in the First Age.

Greetings

[Puddleglum]

At one time there was a settlement at Edhellond, near the site of Dol Amroth wence the elves of Lorien would set sail to the west. It was, as I recall, settled my marinors from Brithomber & Eglarest who sailed south after Morgoth sacked the havens following the Arnodiad.

However, that settlement closed down midway in the 3rd age - Amroth was on the last ship to sail from that haven (and died trying to swim back to shore in search of Nimrodel).

[mark12_30]

Of course it's just my fancy, but I imagine the Ered Luin to be teeming with elves, refugees from Lindon, and Ossiriand... the mountains of Song?. (Someone will probably correct me.) And while settlements may be few, the charm of the wilder elves was that they wandered and sang at will.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

At one time there was a settlement at Edhellond, near the site of Dol Amroth wence the elves of Lorien would set sail to the west. It was, as I recall, settled my marinors from Brithomber & Eglarest who sailed south after Morgoth sacked the havens following the Arnodiad.

However, that settlement closed down midway in the 3rd age - Amroth was on the last ship to sail from that haven (and died trying to swim back to shore in search of Nimrodel).

Yes. Edhellond was populated by Nandorin and Silvan Elves, fleeing Beleriand in the First Age, but the community survived all the way through to the Third Age. As Legolas says to Imrahil on the Pelenor:

"It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water."

In the Second Age, there is reference to a Nandorin presence fleeing from the Ost-In-Edhil, after the Gwaith-i-Mirdain were either killed (Celebrimbor's head was put on a pike) or fled. Galadriel, herself, appears to have passed through, bringing more than Nandor after or during the War of Elves and Sauron, when Sauron's armies gathered in, or occupied Tharbad.

Mithrellas (companion of Nimrodel, who fled Lorien) partnered with Imrazor (TA 1980), the Numenorean, and founded the Line of Imrahil, around 2000, TA. Galador (male) and Gilmith ('star mist', female) were Half Elven and the first of Imrahil's line.

It seems this was probably the most neighbourly example of Elves and Men in the TA.