Wood Elves

[xMellrynxMaidenx]

I am unsure if there is already a thread like this created, and if so please forgive me for creating another, but something has been bugging the ever living out of me since I watched those movies.

Frodo, when both he and Sam are resting, tells Sam that the wood elves are near. The two of them in all their hobbitsh excitement go and watch them pass through. Frodo tells Sam they are passing over the Sea into the Undying Lands and Sam says it make him sad and all that jazz.

The only "wood elves" that I ever remember Frodo and Sam meeting in the Shire was Gildor Inglorion and his company of elves.

My question is: Are the elves Frodo and Sam see Gildor and his company?

I mean, given the number of them, they DO make a company, but Gildor told Frodo in the books...

"We are Exiles, and most of our kindred have long departed and we too are only tarrying here a while, ere we return over the Great Sea."

It's possible I guess that it was Gildor and his company departing, (PJ and what he likes to call "adding his own touch") but he and Frodo met again in the same spot, when Gildor was traveling to the Undying Lands with Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel.

So...if the "wood elves" wasn't Gildor and his company, then who were they? I suppose they could be elves from Lothlorien or Mirkwood (Since they ARE Silvan elves) traveling to the Grey Havens. (kind of already answered my own question, didn't I? )

It was just something that was bugging me, really. What do you guys think?

[Galin]

Well, as it's for the movie they can be generic silvan elves to illustrate that Elves are passing West and leaving Middle-earth.

In the book (at this point) Frodo speaks of Elves wandering into the Shire, and Gildor and company turn out to be High Elves (meaning 'Eldar' here it seems), and specifically Exiled Noldor.

[Galadriel55]

I'm not really sure PJ unrerstood the difference between Silvan elves and High Elves, so that would explain a lot. It's just one flaw of the movies out of a hundred.

[Galin]

I'm not a Jackson fan myself, but I don't see this particular scene as a flaw actually. In my opinion these Elves don't need to be High Elves to make the simple point.

Jackson did cut this scene for theatrical release in any case.

[Galadriel55]

true, that.maybe PJ just wanted to shorten the story a bit, but add a dramatic line. Well, it worked.

[Galadriel]

Huh? Gildor is a Wood elf? I think I remember Frodo saying, "They spoke the name of Elbereth! These are High Elves!" in the books.

What's more, the name 'Inglorion' indicates he is of the House of Finrod. Also, Gildor mentions this himself. In that case, he is definitely not a Wood elf; he is a Noldo/Vanya.

Edit: Oh wait, I think you're talking about the possibilities in the movie. Well, in that case they're probably from Lothlórien

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Galin

I'm not a Jackson fan myself, but I don't see this particular scene as a flaw actually. In my opinion these Elves don't need to be High Elves to make the simple point.

Jackson did cut this scene for theatrical release in any case.

Strange though, that he simply couldn't say 'High Elves'. Probably the audience would never understand

[xMellrynxMaidenx]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

Edit: Oh wait, I think you're talking about the possibilities in the movie. Well, in that case they're probably from Lothlórien

Haha I was Because truly I don't think it would matter to PJ if they were High Elves, Wood Elves, Blue Elves, Purple Elves...etc (okay so I was being silly with the last few )

We know Gildor was a High Elf, PJ could have been unaware of that fact. I didn't give this question a whole lot of thought at the time, but after I had posted it, only then did it become so blaringly obvious to me.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

(...) What's more, the name 'Inglorion' indicates he is of the House of Finrod. Also, Gildor mentions this himself.

Inglorion doesn't necessarily indicate this however, though Gildor's mention does, that's true.

Pedantic of me I know

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by xMellrynxMaidenx

We know Gildor was a High Elf, PJ could have been unaware of that fact. I didn't give this question a whole lot of thought at the time, but after I had posted it, only then did it become so blaringly obvious to me.

No, I don't think he overlooked it. For someone who knows LotR so thoroughly, it shouldn't slip his mind. I still hold that the audience would not know what High Elves would be, and therefore Wood elves was an easier alternative.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Galin

Inglorion doesn't necessarily indicate this however, though Gildor's mention does, that's true.

Pedantic of me I know

I know it's not necessary, but since Gildor says it, to me it does become (almost) necessary. The main problem was that Tolkien changed his mind every week and twice on Sundays.

[Galin]

I meant Gildor 'Inglorion' by itself doesn't necessar-ily show that Gildor was of the House of Finrod. So in a sense it was 'necessary' for him to state 'House of Finrod', otherwise the reader wouldn't know.


Gildor and Company arguably have nothing to do with this scene, just as Glorfindel has nothing to do with Arwen showing up at the ford. Are these things in line with the books? Obviously not, but the filmmakers don't really attempt to illustrate the Gildor encounter, which obviously is much more involved that just seeing the Elves pass by.

[xMellrynxMaidenx]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

No, I don't think he overlooked it. For someone who knows LotR so thoroughly, it shouldn't slip his mind. I still hold that the audience would not know what High Elves would be, and therefore Wood elves was an easier alternative.

Just goes to show you what I know about PJ.

But yes, I see where you're coming from with this. If I had not read the Lord of the Rings or any of Tolkien's work that pertains to ME, really, I wouldn't have known who the High Elves were or what their significance was.

[Blind Guardian]

Originally Posted by xMellrynxMaidenx

Just goes to show you what I know about PJ.

But yes, I see where you're coming from with this. If I had not read the Lord of the Rings or any of Tolkien's work that pertains to ME, really, I wouldn't have known who the High Elves were or what their significance was.

Wait, there's High Elves? I thought that came from Sacred 2!

[narfforc]

O Elbereth Gilthoniel!
We still remember , we who dwell
In this far land beneath the trees,
Thy starlight on the Western seas.

'I am Gildor,' answered their leader, the elf who had first hailed him. 'Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod. We are exiles, and most of our kindred have long ago departed and we too are now only tarrying here a while, ere we RETURN over the Great Sea

The elves that Frodo and Sam see in the movie look more like The Elves of Imladriss rather than the rustic Silvan Wood-elves of say Thranduils realm, in saying that will we see elves of more elequance within The Elven-King's Hall in the Hobbit movies or will they be dressed ala Legolas. What has always worried me about Gildor is that he names his company 'Exiles', when the Ban was lifted after The War of Wrath. Some Noldor, notably Galadriel refused to return.....is Gildor a sef-imposed exile? therefore he can return when he takes the fancy. Anyone who wishes to know what High Elves are should read The Silmarillion.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Blind Guardian

Wait, there's High Elves? I thought that came from Sacred 2!

Forgive me, I don't quite know what you're talking about

[narfforc]

What is Sacred 2?

[narfforc]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

Huh? Gildor is a Wood elf? I think I remember Frodo saying, "They spoke the name of Elbereth! These are High Elves!" in the books.

What's more, the name 'Inglorion' indicates he is of the House of Finrod.

I remember reading in HoME that Finrod replaced Inglor as the name of a son of Finarfin, doesn't Inglorion translate as Son of Inglor/Finrod in that case it is another of Tolkien's slight errors, as Finrod didn't have any children. Part of Finrod's Quenya name is Ingoldo, anyone have any answers?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by narfforc

What has always worried me about Gildor is that he names his company 'Exiles', when the Ban was lifted after The War of Wrath. Some Noldor, notably Galadriel refused to return.....is Gildor a sef-imposed exile? therefore he can return when he takes the fancy.

Galadriel was still under special ban for her role in the Rebellion but I think Gildor is stating his status as an Exile (of the Etyañgoldi) rather than meaning he is still not allowed to return. As you noted, he is tarrying -- possibly at the request of Elrond?

I remember reading in HoME that Finrod replaced Inglor as the name of a son of Finarfin, doesn't Inglorion translate as Son of Inglor/Finrod in that case it is another of Tolkien's slight errors, as Finrod didn't have any children. Part of Finrod's Quenya name is Ingoldo, anyone have any answers?

Tolkien went back and forth as to whether or not Inglor/Finrod Felagund had children: it seems that at the time of writing The Lord of the Rings (or at least in the time 'surrounding' this general period) Inglor Felagund had a wife and children, and in notes to the QS manuscript even Gil-galad was his son. In early workings of the text Of The Rings of Power And The Third Age Galadriel was a daughter of Felagund the fair and the elder sister of Gil-galad.


In any case, Tolkien hadn't published that Felagund was named Inglor, though he muddled the picture of the first edition a bit, because there 'Finrod' was Galadriel's father and Felagund her brother.

Anyway, Gildor as the son or descendant of an Elf named Inglor isn't necessarily problematic. In the revised conception one might argue that House of Finrod should have been revised to House of Finarfin, but I would suggest that Nos Finrod perhaps became more known, or more 'popular' in Middle-earth, due to the circumstances (Finarfin remained in Aman), and also the popularity of Finrod Felagund, Friend of Men.

[Blind Guardian]

Originally Posted by narfforc

Anyone who wishes to know what High Elves are should read The Silmarillion.

I did.

Originally Posted by narfforc

What is Sacred 2?

A game. There are High Elves in it. I don't remember there being High Elves in the Sil.

Originally Posted by Galadriel

Forgive me, I don't quite know what you're talking about

Sacred 2



I didn't realize a joke would bring so much confusion...

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Blind Guardian

I don't remember there being High Elves in the Sil.

The High Elves - aka Calaquendi - are the ones that went to Valinor: Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri

[Galin]

High Elves can have two types of reference in my opinion:


A) Most often High Elves = Tareldar, the Elves that went to Aman, and thus in Middle-earth the returning Noldor.

B) But also it sometimes refers to the Eldar or 'West-elves' and thus includes the Sindar -- as opposed to the East-elves.

I think Frodo (at least arguably) can be said to use 'High Elves' in the sense of B here, because the Sindar would use the name Elbereth as well... even though, again from an external perspective, Tolkien wrote this line when the language scenario was quite different.

[Evisse the Blue]

Well....that part in the movie when Frodo says 'Wood Elves' always makes me laugh because it's silly. Mostly it's the way he says it, like those 'wood elves' are some extinct or elusive species of the woods which must not be alerted to their presence / disturbed out of their habitat. Secondly because from the first time I saw it in the Extended Edition, I understood exactly the thought process at work here, to introduce the 'elves' from afar to the non-book reading audience, who have no idea what elves are and name them '...wood elves, because they happen to be in a forest, right? This way the audience won't be confused at all'. Also as Sam and Frodo watch them from afar in awe, they appear as visions of light and splendor, much like the book-reading audience envisions High Elves. The NBR audience would just assume all elves are like that, be they the wood, hill or dale species. High fives all around!

[Lotrelf]

Elves were leaving Middle-Earth those days . I think PJ showed random "Wood Elves" leaving ME; it did not have to be Gildor & co; just few Elves leaving the world. This was important in the book too, and was added in the movie. So it's really not a problem unless I'm missing something.