Tom Bombadil vs. The Ring

[Elenglin]

Why didn't The Ring have any effect on Bombadil?
If he was an enigma, like Ungoliant, I still think that the Ring would effect on him, the Silmarils effected on Ungoliant, and i dare to compare the stones and the Ring [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
And if Bombadil was a Maia, the Ring would've still effect him; Gandalf and Saruman were Mauar too, and Ring effected them (or would have effected, as Gandalf said when he refused to take it).
I found an discussion of that who was Tom Bombadil, and it has something to do with this, but there was nothing about the Ring.
Opinnions? I'd really like to know this.

[Mhoram]

He's an enimga that the Ring didn't effect.

[Orald]

I don't think Ungoliant and Bombadil are exactly in the same class.

Tom had relinquished his power to dominate anything, except maybe the old forest which he already had complete control over, so the ring had no use to him, and therefore could have no effect on him. This works for him being any race species or whatever you like to call the different peoples of Arda.

[Birdland]

I always figured that Tom Bombadil, though he appears in human form to those who may see him, is a manifestation of the spirit of "indifferent nature". Maybe that's too harsh a word, since Bombadil is portrayed as a kindly soul, but the affairs of humanity just cannot touch him.

Elrond said something to the effect that if Sauron prevailed, then even Bombadil would fall, "last as he was first". But I don't believe this. Earth, and Tom, would abide. Maybe in a form that humans would not recognize or be comfortable with, but that would mean little to him.

(Don't know if I'm making myself clear here. I'm typing against the clock.)

[Amarinth]

hi! can i butt in?

i read somewhere, can't exactly remember where, that tom bombadil was some kind of an incarnation of the primitive earth, like a "father nature", in the same manner that the ents were incarnations of trees. yeah it's been suggested - was it by either of the tolkiens? - that he was indeed a maia, though this doesn't appear to fit nicely in how the ainu were described and enumerated in the silmarillion. anyway, you do get the impression that tom really was quite divorced from the going-ons outside the old forest, which sort of shows the place as a holdover or artefact of change. hence, the ring of power does not affect tom in all appearances, but as lotr says, he will get his turn in the end, as change works its way down to the unchanging.

in relation to this, was tom bombadil's part in the lotr sort of an accident that happened when tolkien later completed his full cosmology that left tom out? been meaning to start this thread but, oh well...

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every man's life is a path to the truth -- hesse

[Kuruharan]

Tom had relinquished his power to dominate anything, except maybe the old forest which he already had complete control over, so the ring had no use to him, and therefore could have no effect on him.

I don't think that the two of those can go together. If he had relinquished his power to dominate anything then he did not "dominate" the Old Forest. If he did dominate the Old Forest, then I think that the Ring would have had some effect on him.

I think probably that he was such a higher order of creation than anything else in the Old Forest that he could compell the trees and creatures to obey him in extreme circumstances, but that was not his usual way. I think he probably usually left them alone.

Elrond said something to the effect that if Sauron prevailed, then even Bombadil would fall, "last as he was first". But I don't believe this. Earth, and Tom, would abide. Maybe in a form that humans would not recognize or be comfortable with, but that would mean little to him.

I have to side with Elrond on this one, but it does sort of make an interesting point. It's so much easier to renounce your control of anything else when nothing can hurt you isn't it?

[Mhoram]

Would Bombadil be the last to fall in Middle-Earth or in all of Arda? That is to say, is Elrond saying that he would fall before or after the Valar?

[Birdland]

Depends on if you believe if Tom is the "spirit" of Middle Earth, or all of Arda. Also, is Tom unaffected by evil because he is so "good", or because he is beyond such definitions as Good or Evil?

I'm beginning to wish Tolkien had never attempted to put the freakin' character in the book at all!

You have what Tolkien implies to be some kind of omnipotent manifestation of Nature, but who can only save the Hobbits in the beginning because he was stumbling by gathering water lilies! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] Then later he needs the ponies to clue him in on what's going one at the Barrow Downs, but once there he can control those spirits like he was shooing chickens.

So what, Tom's all powerful, as long as you point him in the right direction?

[Kuruharan]

Would Bombadil be the last to fall in Middle-Earth or in all of Arda? That is to say, is Elrond saying that he would fall before or after the Valar?

Well, I have read theories that good ole' Tom is actually Aule, so.....

[Orald]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that he dominated the Old Forest. I was just trying to say that he was the master of it and only it.

Mho:

Do you think that Sauron could have defeated the hosts of the Valar to begin with for only Tom to remain? I think Elrond means Middle-Earth in this instance. Also remember that Elrond is only a character in the book and although he may be wise, he does not know all ends.

I don't think anything is beyond teh definitions of good and evil. I've said earlier that Tom has to be stronger than a mair and weaker then Illuvatar. Therefore, he is either a Valar or something Tolkein never "encountered". I would like to believe that he is Aule, but this answer seems too easy for me to accept.

[Mhoram]

We're told that Sauron with the ring was more powerful than Morgoth at the end of the first age, and we don't know if the Valar were as powerful as they had been in the beginning. All is speculation.

[Kuruharan]

we don't know if the Valar were as powerful as they had been in the beginning.

I personally tend to doubt that they were as powerful as in the beginning. I think they diminished over time.

We're told that Sauron with the ring was more powerful than Morgoth at the end of the first age

Any one have a reference for the statement that Sauron was ever more powerful than Morgoth? I very much tend to doubt it's true.

Well, I have read theories that good ole' Tom is actually Aule

Whoever Tom is, he's not Aule. Aule was a maker; Tom wasn't. Aule was on the side of Good; Tom was basically a non-combatant. Sauron could not defeat Aule; he almost certainly could defeat Tom. The Valar didn't live long-term in Middle Earth (excepting Morgoth in the First Age); Tom did.

Tom also lacks the majesty of the Valar.

Tolkien makes it clear that Tom is a one-of-a-kind being who's never fully explained. Tolkien's early view of Tom was as the spirit of the vanishing countryside. He also associates Tom with pacifism, neutrality, and pure (not practical) knowledge.

[Kuruharan]

I can't find the link to the site where I read that. I believe that the gist of it was that Aule was there "undercover" merely observing everything there. In this role he had shed his form of power and majesty. He did not make anything as Tom because that was not what he was there to do.

Tom also lacks the majesty of the Valar.

The Valar, like the Istari, could probably shed that if they wanted to.

I personally found it a rather implausible theory, but I just threw it out there because the Valar were mentioned.

[Orald]

Here is a quote from Letters, Mho.

By the end of the Second Age he assume the position of Morgoth's Representive. By the end of the Third Age(though actually much weaker than before) he claimed to be Morgoth returned.

The power of the Valar would have naturally decreased over time, but Sauron was of the same stock and would have likewise become weaker. Plus, much of his essence would have been expended even after the forging of the ring. And if needed, Iluvatar would surely intervene as he had before.

I can't seem to find the quote about Sauron being more powerful than Morgoth at the end of the First Age, but I have read it before, I believe it is somewhere in the later HoME volumes, it is not in Letters, as I checked.

[Elenglin]

Okay.. this conversation is heading to an an argue of what was Tom Bombadil. I knew this.. Why din't Tolkien tell _us_ what Tom was? Could the answer be found from the letters of JRRT?

[Bruce MacCulloch]

Why din't Tolkien tell _us_ what Tom was? Could the answer be found from the letters of JRRT?

Here is what it says:

And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).

Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, no 144

[zifnab]

“ I don’t think Tom needs philosophizing about, and is not improved by it. But many have found him an odd or indeed discordant ingredient. In historical fact I put him in because I had already ‘invented’ him independently (he first appeared in the Oxford Magazine) and he wanted an ‘adventure’ on the way.” - J.R.R. Tolkien – In a letter of 1954
The return of the Shadow/The old forest and the withywindle

‘It seems that he has a power even over the Ring.’ – Erestor about Tom Bombadil
‘No, I should not put it so, ‘ said Gandalf. ‘Say rather that the Ring has no power over him. He is his own master. But he cannot alter the Ring itself, nor break its power over others.’ – The Council of Elrond/FOTR

[Mhoram]

Notes on motives in the Silmarillion.

(i)
Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than
Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was
far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low.
Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the
endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to
expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda,
Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical
constituents of the Earth - hence all things that were born on
Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate
spirits, were liable to be 'stained'. Morgoth at the time of the
War of the Jewels had become permanently 'incarnate': for this
reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by
means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures.
Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only
spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the
creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to
dominate. In this way Sauron was also wiser than Melkor-
Morgoth. Sauron was not a beginner of discord; and he
probably knew more of the 'Music' than did Melkor, whose
mind had always been filled with his own plans and devices, and
gave little attention to other things. The time of Melkor's
greatest power, therefore, was in the physical beginnings of the
World; a vast demiurgic lust for power and the achievement of
his own will and designs, on a great scale.
-Myths Transformed, HoME X, Morgoth's Ring

[ March 25, 2002: Message edited by: Mhoram ]

Mhoram,

I also read that selection the other day. I find it very confusing. I guess that Morgoth "dispersed" was not as great as Sauron "condensed". I really don't agree that it means Sauron was more powerful than Morgoth at any time though.

[Mhoram]

Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than
Morgoth at the end of the First.

-J.R.R. Tolkien

Believe what you like.

I think I will.

And, this does not take away from the fact that Morgoth's accomplishments were much greater than that of Sauron's. Sorry. I'm pro-Morgoth.

Sauron was created from Morgoth and his fetid corruption. While Morgoth had more orcs and the like, Sauron used every available asset to him, including the Istari. He also created the Olag-Hai and had Sauraman Create the Urak-Hai. If I had to choose which one brought the most destruction with his Creatures, I would still choose Morgoth. He created the first drakes and the mutated Ents called trolls. Glauring was one of the most impressive works of Morgoth, and while Turin did slay him, Glaurung took out Hurin's line. You also have to account for the elves' valor in the first and second ages compared to their complacency in the third age. Morgoth was stronger than Sauron. Sauron Without the ring was almost useless and could be defeated. Morgoth had no hinderance.

[Mirkgirl]

Tom Bombadil vs. The Ring hmmmmm just no!

No way Tom really to be "vs." the one and this was the whole thing about.

It is Tom Bombadil ignoring The Ring

Mhoram,

Here's my point.

The original post I responded to made the statement that Sauron with the Ring was more powerful than Morgoth. That, I think, creates a false impression.

In the essay you quoted, Tolkien is using greatness to refer to the concentration of power within an individual being, not necessarily the total power at his disposal. So greatness, as used in that essay, is not quite synonymous with overall power. Although Morgoth had dispersed his vastly greater power into the physical world to dominate it, he still had control of a great deal of that power at the end of the First Age, including Men, Orcs, Dragons, and Balrogs. He had merely transformed his powers of "mind and spirit" into physical force.

He was able to defeat the combined hosts of Beleriand: Noldor, Sindar, and Edain. At the end of the First Age, only the Host of the Valar could finally overcome him and the forces he commanded.

Sauron's armies, while Sauron held the Ring, would not stand against just the Numenoreans; although Sauron later was able to cause the downfall of Numenor through subterfuge. At the end of the Second Age, with the Ring, Sauron himself and all his forces were utterly defeated by the Last Alliance, which I'm sure was a much weaker force than the Host of the Valar, and Sauron could have been completely annihilated at that time.

[Mhoram]

While that works for your theory, I have no knowledge of Tolkien saying this or anything to the simular:

In the essay you quoted, Tolkien is using greatness to refer to the concentration of power within an individual being, not necessarily the total power at his disposal. So greatness, as used in that essay, is not quite synonymous with overall power.

If you'd like to share how you know for sure that this is what Tolkien intended...

[TheBlackRider]

But you all are forgetting the one thing about Tom?
I think Tom is the Fire the Melkor went to look for. Ivularur held it and placed it in Middle-Earth. What if Tom was the keeper of the fire? What if he was Ivulatir himself? All the Valor could take shape who says ivulatir can't?

[Thingol]

Tolkien stated that Iluvatar had never entered into Arda, and would not until the last battle was fought. Morgoth's armies were stronger than those of Sauron, but Morgoth himself was not. Once Morgoth dispersed his power into Arda he lost it forever.

[TheBlackRider]

Sure mabey he wasnt Ivulariur himself but mabey he is the keeper of the fire? Gandalf seemed to need to talk to him at the end of rotk so mabey Tom is the fire's keeper.

[Thingol]

The flame imperishable was set to burn at the heart of Ea, in the center of Arda. The old forest is certainly not the center of Arda (Middle Earth). Gandalf says that he is a servant of that fire when fighting the Balrog. Gandalf is not a servant of Tom and I highly doubt that Tom is the keeper of that fire. I’m pretty sure there is a quote in the letters that states Tom is defiantly not Iluvatar.

[O'Boile]

Where does the notion that Valar (other than Meklor) lose their power? Meklor only loses his because he expends it creating and dominating his armies. Sauron's army was smaller than Meklor's... the Last Alliance was a smaller army than the host of the Valar, and they defeated Sauron.

[obloquy]

Where does the notion that Valar (other than Meklor) lose their power?

The Valar 'fade' and become more impotent, precisely in proportion as the shape and constitution of things becomes more defined and settled.

-Myths Transformed