Durin, Nain, and the Balrog

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

In Khazad-dum, Durin was killed by the Balrog who had decided to settle there. The year later, his son Nain was killed, also by that very Balrog.

What exactly were the Dwarves up to over the course of this year? Was it a year of terror for the whole community. Or was Nain perhaps one of the last Dwarves to remain in Moria, overseeing the exodus?

Thoughts? Because I can't imagine the Dwarves hanging about Moria with a Balrog lurking round the corner.

[Manwe Sulimo]

Would the dwarves really have abandoned their biggest and only major settlement because of that one problem? They probably remained, fighting the Balrog for a year, before too many warriors were killed and they had to flee.

My question is: Why couldn't the dwarves kill the Balrog? After all, they had dragonfire-resistant armor and such....

[Rumil]

I seem to remember that the Dwarves 'awoke' the Balrog because they mined too deeply in search of Mithril. That implies that the Balrog was found in one of the deepest mineworkings of Moria, which was, after all, a big place.

I wonder how the Dwarves tried to deal with it? I'd guess it killed the Dwarven miners who stumbled upon it, then perhaps Durin led an expedition down into the deeps to try and kill it, with unfortunately predictable results.

I suppose the smartest thing to try then would be to collapse the mineworkings above the Balrog and isolate it from the rest of Khazad-Dum. If tried, this may have held it up for a while, perhaps a year, while the Balrog found alternate passages and broke through obstructions.

The Balrog, (clearly tetchy by now as it had planned to sleep in for a few thousand years yet) would now have emerged into the main halls of Moria. Perhaps Nain tried to lead the Dwarven warriors against it in a last desperate attempt to save their subterranean empire. They could have tried to 'gang up' on it in one of the big halls, which would seem reasonable if they didn't have a full understanding of the power of the beast.

Was Nain perhaps unwilling to abandon his home, like a captain going down with his ship? Would it have appeared 'dishonourable' if he survived the battle without wreaking revenge on the killer of his father?

v. Wagnerian!

[Kuruharan]

One other thing that has not been mentioned yet. The balrog perhaps was doing a bit of sneaking and lurking about, probably picking off the occasional dwarf over the course of that year. The dwarves may have had difficulty in even finding him, if he was hiding himself in places below where they normally went.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

I suppose the Dwarves didn't want to leave their great mansions. I suppose that they didn't know what a Balrog was?

[doug*platypus]

Good question, Manwë, I'd never thought about that before. I guess the dwarves must have been subject to the same weakening that men (at least their heroes) and elves were between the First and Third Ages.

While the ancient dwarves of Belegost under their leader Azaghâl might have been equal to the task, the dwarves of Khazad-Dûm doubtless were not. They were probably a bit rusty by that stage, too, after not much fighting action for a while.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Maybe it was the terror that went with the Balrog, the Dwarves simply could not stand against them.

[the guy who be short]

it is probable that the dwarves didnt know what the balrog was. in fact, it is probable that nobody except the istari knew what it was!
since a balrog was originally a maia, (thus being equal in power to gandalf, another maia) and nobody knew about the maia because they lved so far away in valinor, they didnt know what it was. dragon resistant armor would probably have bees useless, a maia would be more powerful than a dragon.
so maybe they kept on fighting until they were nearly wiped out, not knowing that

this is a foe beyond any of you

[Elmo]

What I wonder is why the Balrog did not fight at the Battle of Azanulbizar I'm sure it could have slaughtered the Dwarven army and also how Balin's realm in Moria lasted the length it did when I'm sure the Balrog could have wiped it out with a flick of its whip. Was it just lazy?

On a slightly different note I wonder why Gimli says he thinks Balin never came to Moria. Where does he think all those messages from Balin originate from? Did he think Balin was lying about where he was?

[Raynor]

What I wonder is why the Balrog did not fight at the Battle of Azanulbizar I'm sure it could have slaughtered the Dwarven army and also how Balin's realm in Moria lasted the length it did when I'm sure the Balrog could have wiped it out with a flick of its whip. Was it just lazy?

In Durin's Folk, Appendices, it is speculated that the dwarves released the balrog from prison, or that they merely awakened him. This idea is sustained by Gloin's words at the Council of Elrond

Too deep we delved there, and woke the nameless fear.

[Elmo]

Yes but why wasn't the Balrog lashing Dain with his whip by the doors of Moria and why did the Balrog let Balin's rule last five years then send Orcs to destroy them. Did it not notice that a large number of dwarves living in his realm for five years and why didn't it go after them itself?

[Lord Melkor]

Hmmm, interesting topic. I think Rumil made some good suggestions about that first year of the Balrog's release. I reckon the Balrog first killed the Dwarves that awoke him and lingered for a while in the deep places of Khazad-dum to regain his bearings. After all, he was asleep for thousands of years before being rudely awakened. I think some of the miners escaped back to the upper levels and warned their lord, Durin, who decided to venture down there himself with a strong detachment of Dwarven warriors to teach this creature a lesson in Dwarven hospitality. Unfortunately he got a lot more than he bargained for and was duly killed by the Balrog, who must have been getting pretty annoyed by all these Dwarves prancing around him.

For the next year the Dwarves would have probably tried to contain the Balrog in the lower levels by sealing the corridors and hallways leading there. Obviously their efforts were in vain when at the end of that year the Balrog broke out and killed Nain. Now that the Balrog had broken through to the main halls of Khazad-dum and having lost two kings and probably a good deal of their best warriors, the Dwarves were compelled to hastily evacuate Khazad-dum.

It seems probable that the Balrog and Sauron (who resided close-by in Dol Guldur) had some sort of 'gentlemen's agreement', where the Balrog would allow Sauron's orcs to inhabit Khazad-dum, as long as they acknowledged the Balrog's supremacy in Moria. Though not stated outright in the books it seems the Balrog resided mostly in the lowest levels of Khazad-dum, close to his original resting place. I believe Gandalf remarked that though the upper levels had been completely plundered, no-one dared to venture into the deeper levels, stating that these are clouded in the shadow of fear (aka, the Big Bad Balrog resided there).

This would also explain why the Balrog allowed Balin's expedition to continue for so many years. It may be that the Balrog was simply unaware of them, with the dwarves only inhabiting the upper levels of Khazad-dum while the Balrog resided in the deep, lower levels. Only after the Orcs returned into Moria was the Balrog's ire aroused, though it may be that the Balrog himself never actually attacked Balin's dwarves, instead preferring to let the Orcs do the cleaning out.

[Elmo]

Yet why did the Balrog appear to the Fellowship within days of them entering Moria?

[Lord Melkor]

Originally Posted by hewhoarisesinmight

Yet why did the Balrog appear to the Fellowship within days of them entering Moria?

The Balrog may have been attracted by the presence of the Ring. As seen with the Watcher in the Water the Ring had the tendency to draw evil creatures to it. And there is also the matter of foolish Tooks tossing stones into deep wells. Who knows what elese was disturbed by Pippin's stone? It certainly wasn't just Orcs, as Gandalf found out on the Bridge of Khazad-dum.

[Elmo]

Just one last question, when Dain looked into the darkness of Khazad-dum, did he see Durin's bane?

[Lord Melkor]

Yes.

I don't have the exact quote at hand but when Dain returned after the Battle of Azanulbizar he was greatly shaken and told Thrain that the time to return to Moria had not yet come

[Celebdil]

Originally Posted by hewhoarisesinmight

What I wonder is why the Balrog did not fight at the Battle of Azanulbizar I'm sure it could have slaughtered the Dwarven army and also how Balin's realm in Moria lasted the length it did when I'm sure the Balrog could have wiped it out with a flick of its whip. Was it just lazy?

Are balrogs really this powerful? Could say, Gandalf, fight a company of a few hundred angry dwarves and live? After all, Saruman died from a single attack by Wormtongue, though he was caught unawares. And if Maia are really this powerful, couldn't Saruman have killed the hobbit army at Bag End? Gandalf did kill a bunch of orcs with his staff in that cave in The Hobbit, but I don't think he could have killed an entire company of dwarves without being killed himself. So it seems to me that the dwarf army should have been able to hunt and kill the balrog, but maybe the balrog ran away, forcing the dwarves to split up to look for him and then attacked smaller groups with better odds. Maybe this is how Durin died.

[The Might]

Very true Lord Melkor, I thought I should give the quote to clear things up a bit more:

Then Thrain [color=black]turned to Da[/color]in, and said: "But surely my own kin will not desert me?" "No," said Dain, "You are the father of our Folk, and we have bled for you, and will again. But we will not enter Khazad-dum. You will not enter Khazad-dum. Only I have looked through the shadow of the gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria. ~ LOTR, Appendix A, Durin's Folk

Actually, now that I re-read this passage it sounds as a bit of a prophecy to me, similar to the prophecy made by Glorfindel about the Witch-king. Clearly, Dain possessed enough wisdom to realise that the Dwarves would never be strong enough to defeat Durin's Bane on their own. Fortunately for them, this other power appeared in the form of Gandalf the Grey.

However, I definitely don't agree with the idea of an agreement between Sauron and Durin's Bane. I see it more as a relation between Sauron and Shelob. Shelob helped Sauron indirectly by making sure nobody made it alive through her lair, but she had no real wish to serve him.

Also, I am not so sure whether the Balrog actually cared about anyone passing through Moria as long as he wasn't disturbed. During Balin's reign the Dwarves were able to reach as far as to the West Gate so clearly if they had wished to exit Moria they could have (except the unfortunate episode with Oin and the Watcher). Neither the Balrog nor the Watcher were in any way serving Sauron knowingly, it was just a lucky coincidence for him that they were present there.

As for the Orcs, they clearly respected and served the Balrog, however this doesn't mean they didn't have their own pride. Azog's time as "ruler" of Moria shows that not all Orcs were necessarily also serving the Balrog, which leads me to the conclusion that the Balrog didn't care much about what was going on as long as he was ok.

[Rumil]

I wonder if it was the presence of Gandalf, as well as the presence of the ring, which roused the Balrog to attack the Fellowship.

I imagine that maiar could sense one-anothers' presence and that the Balrog would have considered Gandalf a threat to 'his' domain, while Balin's Dwarven colonists provoked no such response as they were beings of little 'power' in the view of the Balrog.

Maybe!

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Celebdil

Are balrogs really this powerful? Could say, Gandalf, fight a company of a few hundred angry dwarves and live? After all, Saruman died from a single attack by Wormtongue, though he was caught unawares. And if Maia are really this powerful, couldn't Saruman have killed the hobbit army at Bag End? Gandalf did kill a bunch of orcs with his staff in that cave in The Hobbit, but I don't think he could have killed an entire company of dwarves without being killed himself. So it seems to me that the dwarf army should have been able to hunt and kill the balrog, but maybe the balrog ran away, forcing the dwarves to split up to look for him and then attacked smaller groups with better odds. Maybe this is how Durin died.

I doubt it. Saruman had been deposed when he was dispatched by Wormtongue. The powers associated with being a Maia are not cast in stone...

As for the Balrog, he must have been extremely powerful if he was able to defeat Durin and his entire army of dwarves. And the evidence from the First Age bears this out, since only the greatest champions were able to stand against the Balrogs, and then at the cost of their own lives. I know of no report of a large contingent of Men or Elves successfully ganging up on a Balrog. As Gandalf said, "swords are of no use here".

The events do suggest, however, that the Balrog did not necessarily feel compelled to step forward in every case, although one has the sense that the Balrog also restricted himself to Moria and the regions below, rather than coming outside to engage in the battle between the Orcs and the Dwarves. But what Dain saw clearly indicates what would have happened if the battle had moved inside of Moria...