"just a book" or "a descriptive treatise on an imaginary ecosphere " ?

[lindil]

"Yeah, I tend to treat LotR more like "just a book" then a lot of other posters here do. And taking LotR as a story -- rather than as a descriptive treatise on an imaginary ecosphere --"

were the legendary [now becoming mythical?] Galpsi's words during the early days of the Downs.

Where do you stand on this continuum and why?

And if perchance Middle-Earth does not quite make it past 'a story' for you, are there other fictives that do?

[ July 28, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Lord of Angmar]

Middle-earth is by far the most realistic work of fantasy I have ever encountered, and its layers upon layers of depth always seem to be unfolding more before my eyes. There are times (okay, all the time) when I want to believe that these events really took place, that these people really existed. The stories are all so beautiful and powerful, that, whether they really happened or not (and I think the latter is more likely [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] ) they will always have a place in my heart and I will cherish my knowledge of Tolkien's vast and bountiful world.

[tinewelt]

No... there is no other fiction that I have encountered that comes close to tolkien. I am a history major (also a historian) and I am not a "huge" fan of fiction. However, I find myself reading Tolkien, probably 1 to 3 hours each day. (time permiting) His style and depth are amazing. Star wars is great, but give me a break. Nothing written (fictional) will ever match the authenticity and originality of Tolkien. Im not sure, but I think this stat is correct. LOTR was the 2nd most read book in the 20th century, right behind the bible. I believe that one of the big factors in Tolkien material is the Geography factor and the maps. I have never seen any work of fiction with this much detail. Then following that there is tons of "research" that accomodates each race and who lived where and so on and so on!!!!!!! I could talk for days, and as Lord Angmar says

There are times (okay, all the time) when I want to believe that these events really took place, that these people really existed.

I hear you! My fascination with tolkien also grows on me when I read and post on this site. I love each and every single member and post on the BD. This many people researching and delving into Tolkiens works to discuss and evaluate is amazing. I do not see this happening with any other work. (not to this degree, anyway) My children will definately be introduced to the legend and lore of J.R.R Tolkien.

~Namarie~

[Lyta_Underhill]

I treat a book as an exercise in sublime beauty to the extent that a book opens to me the multifaceted realms of mystery and imagination and allows me to not only suspend disbelief but to annihilate the very concept!

The "descriptive treatise on an imaginary ecosphere" becomes for me a word painting. Whether it be drawn from the artist's memory or imagination is immaterial, and the real beauty of Tolkien's work is this blending, or the "sub-creation" concept--author as chronicler, as if he is reporting on the doings and history of a world that may be in his mind, but is not necessarily originating there. In one of Tolkien's Letters (don't have it to hand, so I can't be more specific) someone asks him if he has an affinity for the visual arts, or if ME was influenced by works of art; Tolkien replies that it was not influenced by visual art...I am not very clear on the specifics, but the man shows him earlier depictions that look like ME and tells Tolkien "You don't really think you made the whole thing up, do you?" after which Tolkien reflects with the phrase: "Pure Gandalf!" The man may be implying that Tolkien has drawn from perhaps not only visual or other works before him, but perhaps a collective understanding of reality. Sorry if this is not too clear, but I hope I made the point I tried to make.

If a book plucks that thread--the universal thread that reaches beyond the intellectual and into the spiritual and aesthetic realms, then it is more than "just a book!"

Cheers and sorry for the ramble!
Lyta

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

And if perchance Middle-Earth does not quite make it past 'a story' for you...

I should say it did for galpsi as well. Why else would he come here? That's why I come here, at any rate. He is quite right -- LotR is a narrative, a story of fiction -- but the seamless invention of the world described in other texts, and upon which LotR is based, are what makes it more than just a story. And as for

...are there other fictives that do?

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] no, of course not. Tolkien is truly incomparable, as you'd agree, lindil? I'm sure galpsi would have too.

[Beren87]

Aha! Story time! I have an interesting story about this (actually, I have a story about most things, just, generally not interesting). But anyway, as you might have seen, I just created a topic in The Books about Maiar eating, and I linked one of my non-Tolkien friends to read it through (why? no idea). He was obviously astounded as to the depth and contemplation presented by those here. And we were discussing, and he actually came down and used the words "It's just a book". But really, it's not. Tolkien has influenced my life more than any book. While, not a religion per-se, it influences one just as a religion would. Do you call the Bible, just a book? Generally not, and it's the same case here. It's life-altering, life-touching, and life-guiding.

[lindil]

His style and depth are amazing. Star wars is great, but give me a break. Nothing written (fictional) will ever match the authenticity and originality of Tolkien.

I also read the Star Wars EU [ the expanded Universe, what happened to Luke and co. after the Return of the Jedi, now 25 or so years past the movies] - purely for entertainment, although it is growing less and less enjoyable and may soon be discontinued. And it is true, it is pulp sci-fi compared to The Master.

When I read Tolkien, I am learning so many things simultaneously: Writing, Myth, Virtue[s], subtle use of speech and language, the power of story, and of course the many smallre scale occurences, which he describes as no other can; such as music and the state of longing too name a few.

Lyta gave us:

If a book plucks that thread--the universal thread that reaches beyond the intellectual and into the spiritual and aesthetic realms, then it is more than "just a book!"...and sorry for the ramble!

Beautiful Lyta, 'plucks the universal thread', I like that.

Gwaihir, I believe you are right. Galpsi's many, many posts are inexplicable for the 'just a book' line to be really the heart of it.


Beren:

Tolkien has influenced my life more than any book. While, not a religion per-se, it influences one just as a religion would. [...]It's life-altering, life-touching, and life-guiding.

Very well said, even his later drafts and works in progress, letters and miscellaneous notes almost always stand head and shoulders above others. What did CS Lewis say? 'He had been inside language' or some such.

GtW again:

Tolkien is truly incomparable, as you'd agree, lindil?

Yes, although I have a few other writers I love for the power and use of words and story [ Williams' Otherland and a few things by John Crowley spring to mind without effort], none can or have woven a web as rich and diverse, as profound and poignant as JRRT's many volumes of the Legendarium.

As goldberry said of Tom, 'He is Master'.

Thanks for the replies. It was such an unusual line from Galpsi - I thought it would make a nice spingboard, any other jumpers?

by the way the original quote and inspiration came from the recently resurfaced who knows there Trolls thread. A true wonder of the early downs. See many of the original BD'ers [BW himself, Mr. Underhill, Burrahobbit, Gwaihir the Windlord, etc.] rip it up. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[ July 25, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[purplefluffychainsaw]

I've always had an obbesion. One of my eariler ones was **Blushes** Teenage mutant turtles. Then Power Rangers. I would carry on put there all of that sort - TV programs. Then I met LotR. Thanks to my brother (If he reads this post I'm gonna die of embaressment) dragging me to the film version. I was hooked. I read the books that night. It was my first "Book" obbesion. And I know why. Becuase I could picture the characters. Becuase as I read the books even the film version that I had seen was wipped from my head and I was in middle earth. I didn't need to worry about anything any more

Thats why to me Tolkiens books are more than "Just books" Becuase they are an escape. An escape from a life that has been forced upon me. Tolkien wrote his books with such detail taht I find it impossible to read and not fall into. No other books that I have read even comes close to this.

(Sorry about the life history [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Sauron 666]

I love Tolkein's works for its deep richness of imagination. You can see all the effort that Tolkein put into it by the details. It isn't so much the m ain plot that attracts me as much as all the background information, the little comments here and there, that give it so much authenticity. The Silmarillino, The Hobbit and LOTR are among the most imginative works of fiction ever created by a human mind. I think he is one of the masters of 20th century fiction along with Joyce and Hemmingway. The only author who comes close to Tolkein in my mind is H.P. Lovecraft whom i heavily recommend and i believe anyone who enjoys Tolkein would enjoy Lovecraft. To me, Tolkein's works are more than just books that you read once and forget what they were about a week later (Tom Clancy for example, is difficult to remember what the plot is even in the middle of one of his books LOL), the vivid details, the beautiful stories, they are true works of art right up there with Beethoven's 9th Symphony, Picasso, Shakespeare, Moliere, Homer, Joyce, etc, etc.

[Gilthalion]

While LOTR is "just a book" it is also "a descriptive treatise on an imaginary ecosphere." Tolkien's essay "On Fairy Stories" is essential reading on this point, and many deeper points that are suggested by this thread. This story, with its "imaginary ecosphere," was written with such internal consistency and relevance to reality that few are left unaffected by it.

From religious reverence, to the beauties of nature, to the social, technological, environmental and governmental issues, to the arts of language, poetry, and story, Tolkien's work ought to have earned him a Nobel Prize for Literature.

Can such things be granted postumously?

[Lyta_Underhill]

Indeed, Sauron666, Lovecraft is a wonderful writer! To this day, I still walk about my country realm and point out the people who have "The Innsmouth Look!"

Another writer who brings a realm to life and who is much less well known than Lovecraft is Mervyn Peake, the author of Gormenghast and an accomplished illustrator and poet as well! His works focus more on the visual and aesthetic aspects of a place or time and is the author for whom I first started using the term "word painting." His trees talked to each other as well, but you did not get the explicit details; you were looking through Titus' eyes (or perhaps a detached artists'), and the secrets are not revealed to him but painted on a canvas before you. He had a subtle and subversive philosophy, coupled with a real feel for the grotesque that seemed to bespeak a sense of hyper-reality, without being improbable; indeed, his villain Steerpike is probably my favorite and most closely drawn villain in literature! And Tolkien's descriptions of the blindness in Saruman and Sauron especially seem to match up to the weaknesses of Steerpike. But the focus is different and less polarized than Tolkien's. The details in Gormenghast are amazingly finely drawn--I cannot do them justice in my little overview; I think there is a common thread between the three authors: Tolkien, Lovecraft and Peake. They all use an other-ly language, so to speak, a high-spoken or stylized language: Tolkien's high prose for its appropriateness to the tone and subject matter of the narrative, Lovecraft's 19th century sort of diaristic prose for the enclosed, claustrophobic, dark and slow revelations that seem to cry out for such language for its proper pacing; Peake's arabesques of words and visually descriptive prose for the purpose of painting an entire realm through words (where Tolkien gives only cursory physical descriptions, Peake goes over the top and even makes comparisons of people to animals or more elemental things). And this style, when used by these masters, does not cloy or feel unnatural or have the slightest "put-on" feeling to it. Many people think this about Lovecraft, but the fact that he maintains the tone and does not stray from the mindset necessary to justify his chosen style raises it above other attempts at the 19th century style in writing IMO.

OK, I don't know if you all wanted to hear that discourse, but thanks for indulging my need to share it! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Cheers,
Lyta

P.S. Thanks for providing me with the proper phrase, Gilthalion! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Internal consistency! And you're right! I do need to read "On Fairy Stories," if I can get my hands on it! (Posting this here, because I was in process of posting when yours popped up!)

[lindil]

Greetings Gilthalion!

and Lyta - just in case you did not know; the essay On Fairy Stories is widely available in 'The Tolkien Reader' [in the US at least].

[Beren87]

Can such things be granted Can such things be granted posthumous?

I don't think so, there would be too many candidates. Though, I agree he would deserve it.

[vanwalossien]

Lord of the Rings is not just a book to me (actually there's no such thing as 'just a book' to me). The stories Tolkien writes seems so real, that I can easily imagine being in Middle-Earth. I don't really know how to describe how real Tolkien's stories are to me, and since everyone here has given better explanations, I don't really have to either. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] The only books I've ever read that are as real to me as Tolkien's are Katherine Kerr's The Deverry Series. Even though I love those books, and they sometimes seem more real the LotR, it's just not Tolkien. I have no idea exactly what it is, but there's something about Tolkien's writings that makes it impossible for them to be 'just books'. I've bullied at least half a dozen people into reading the books after they declared their love for the movies, and all of them admits that it's more than just a book. Even my 12-year-old brother...

[Elennar Starfire]

Lord of the Rings is not just a book to me (actually there's no such thing as 'just a book' to me).

Yes, I agree with that. All the fantasy stories I have ever read seem real to me, like they all exist in alternate universes. Maybe it's because my dad read The Neverending Story to me when was a little kid. I highly recommend that you read it, it is very good.

[Imladris]

Any book that can make you feel that a fantasy country exists and that elves, dwarves (Tolkien Dwarves, that is), dragons, etc. are real isn't just a book. I get so depressed after I read LOTR because the elves are going away. I wish every day that ME exists. <sigh> I think what makes Tolkien's work so real is the history/myth he has weaved into the story (the poem that Bilbo wrote in Many Meetings, the song that Sam sang about Gil-galad (?), the song that Legolas sang about Nimrodel, you get the picture). The languages he made up also puts a touch of realism in it. The characters are human too! Every single hero had a weakness! I think the only series of books that come close to Tolkien are the Prydain Chronicles by Lloyd Alexander. Of course nothing can beat Tolkien...

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

I get so depressed after I read LOTR because the elves are going away. I wish every day that ME exists.

Perhaps taking it a little too far, I think... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I fully realise that Tolkien's writings are just a story, albeit an incredible one -- a full chronology of an invented world. It certainly is life-changing and life-touching to a certain extent, of course (Beren's Bible analogy is a good one; Meela, although you may be an atheist, try and have some understanding of what the Bible actually is and of its significance before you disregard its importance).

Actually believing it is another matter. Most unhealthy... I can imagine that would be very depressing, as well. The real world is what produced the story, what produced all stories. The world we do in fact live in, after all. Tolkien's mythology is believable alright, and I won't deny my love of it any more that you (as I said, that's why I'm here), but I still recognise it as a clever work of fiction.

Perhaps this is the line that galpsi took, in which case I sympathise with him.

[Guinevere]

Definitely, LotR is more than "just a book" !
I've always loved reading, but when I first "discovered" LotR (at the age of 50!!) it was like a revelation to me. Nothing I had ever read before has so fascinated, thrilled and moved me.
It also inspired an interest for Tolkien and his other works. Before I even started on the Silmarillion, I read "On fairy-stories" (that was a real eye-opener!), "Leaf by Niggle" and Tolkiens biography. Later I also read Tolkiens letters. Every time I come back to read in LotR I appreciate it even more. It appeals to me on many different levels and it is full of wisdom and timeless truth.
I quite agree with Beren87's statement

It's life-altering, life-touching, and life-guiding.

I'm not good at analyzing why that is so, but I guess because it is not just a cleverly written novel but, as Tolkien said in a letter

It is written in my life-blood, such as that is, thick or thin; and I can no other.

I see it as part of the life-work of this exceptional man. Nobody else could write such a book because no other has all his knowledge, his experience and his wisdom.

[Imladris]

I think you misunderstood me, Gwaihir. I don't believe that ME existed or that anything he wrote about it existed. I guess my sorrow is do to the fact that the series "ended" and that it doesn't go on forever. Like what happened to Gimli and Legolas? Sure they took the ship to the Valinor but what happened in between? What happened to Sam, Pippin, and Merry? You can tell a book is good when you want more that what is written. And yes, I am sad when the elves go away because they happen to be my favorite race and I can't imagine Middle-Earth without them...it wouldn't seem to be ME at all!

Beren, and many other people here, are right about what they said of Tolkien. Hope I made myself clear about the first paragraph...

[The Saucepan Man]

Well, I used to think of LotR as "just a book", albeit one which I greatly cherished. That is until I first logged onto this site and read the articles on the putative wings of Balrogs and the possible sunlight resistance of Olog-Hai.

Prior to that, I had always had a sense that there was much more to the world of ME than simply the two novels that I had read. The consistency of characters and events between the Hobbit and LotR had fascinated me and there is much in LotR itself which speaks of the greater history of the world in which the events related therein takes place. But I had, alas, not been able to get past the first few chapters of the Silmarillion when I tried reading it in my teenage years, and so had little sense of what that history entailed. Nor did questions such as whether Balrogs have wings or not really ever occur to me.

So, when I first came across the aforementioned articles, I was stunned by (and rather admiring of) the detailed analyses of such questions. And when I subsequently (and rather belatedly) came across this forum, I found to my amazement hundreds of threads debating the finer points of JRRT's works in the same way. And being the person that I am, I was hooked, albeit mainly as a reader rather than a contributor (at first, in any event). And it fuelled a desire to find out more myself about this expansive world which Tolkien had put so much hard work into creating, which has since led me to complete the Silmarillion and take in the Unfinished Tales and will lead me shortly into the HoME series.

So it is this site really, and the wider ambit of the works which it has prompted me to read, which has led me to appreciate the "imaginary ecosphere" which the Professor created. Indeed, there can be no other author who has devised such an exhaustive setting for his stories, complete with detailed maps, genealogical tables and histories and languages for the races which populate the world in which his stories take place. And it is the fact that he created so much more than simply the stories that are told in the books which prompts us to debate matters such as the origins of trolls and dragons and the identity of Tom Bombadil. Perhaps most significant of all is his inclusion of an expanation of how the world and its creatures and peoples were created, for it is this which leads us into discussions of how those characters and creatures whose origins are not fully explained might fit into the scheme which he has presented us with.

Of course, having said all that, I will always consider LotR, the Hobbit and the Silmarillion first and foremost as works of fiction. But, given the detail that we have, it is fascinating effectively to treat them as historical works and debate and discuss the finer points of them, is it not? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Lyta_Underhill]

It is interesting that there is a current in here that speaks of Tolkien's works being "just a clever work of fiction" or unreal in the sense that Middle Earth is not where we stand, only removed by time and dimension. I am notorious for believing just about anything, and I would much rather believe that Middle Earth is real than that there are bankers living down the road. I know the bankers are there, but I choose not to include them in my reality. This does not mean that I live in a fantasy world and cannot function in the real world; it simply means that I draw my philosophy, moral sense and conscience from Middle Earth, as well as from the tales of history books as we know them. I do draw quite a lot of inspiration from history and art and science as well. But I don't differentiate between the basic truths revealed there and those revealed in the realm of Middle Earth.

"True" stories mean much more to me than "real" stories and a revealed truth in the waking or sleeping world is much more touching and life-guiding, if you will, than the most complete of mundane explanations or elucidations of what is concrete and real. But, then again, I also believe in parallel dimensions, reincarnation, psychokinesis, spirit travelling and crackpot stuff like that! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Why not? Life is too short to limit oneself to only five senses!

You have just witnessed Lyta's confessional mode. We now return you to reality! Heh heh heh... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Cheers,
Lyta, Crackpot in Residence

P.S. That would make a great personal title someday, wouldn't it? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Tinuviel of Denton]

Off-topic: Yes, it would make a great PT someday.

On-topic: "Just a book" doesn't really describe LotR for me. Yes, I know that it did not happen and that it is not real (though ZL would tell you differently), I can see the people and places in it in my mind. LotR feels real. There is no question in my mind that if races such as the Elves and the Naugrim did exist, they would be just like the ones in Tolkien. I know that sounds silly.

LotR is the most real fantasy that I have ever encountered. I have read many of the fantasy that is out there, if only because Tolkien didn't write more than he did, and none of it has the incredible depth that LotR has. It's like ME is better than our world, and, well, I don't know how to explain it.

One of the things that I love about LotR is the way that Tolkien created a history for it. Nothing really just happens, there is a reason and a purpose behind everything. Even things that are enigmas, like good ol' Tom Bom.badil.

I don't think any of this made sense, so I'll shut up now.

[Imladris]

You make perfect sense, Tinuviel. And you said everything perfectly. That Tolkien cared enough to write a history, invent several "real" languages for his races, and put so much detail in everything he wrote is what makes LOTR so real.

[ July 28, 2003: Message edited by: Imladris ]