Rohan

[skytree]

Which European culture does Rohan most closely resemble? Vikings/Scandanavia?

[Lastande Took]

I thought it felt like a combination of early Briton and Scandinavian cultures.

[skytree]

I was thinking Celtic/Scandanavian. I know the Celts made use of horses in warfare, at least as accomplished charioteers.

[Aiwendil]

To me they seem more English (Anglo-Saxon) than British or Scandinavian. Obviously, part of that has to do with their language being represented by Old English. But the choice of Old English was surely not arbitrary; I'd say it reflects something about their society and their outlook that resembles that of the Anglo-Saxons.

I don't see anything particularly Celtic or Scandinavian about them, but maybe that's just me. The emphasis their culture places on horses certainly does set them apart from the Anglo-Saxons, but I don't know that I'd call it particularly Celtic; a lot of peoples used horses, after all.

[skytree]

I know Mead Halls or at least I think were completely unique to Scandinavian cultures in Europe, and of course wearing their hair long and braided with beards is similar to the Viking culture. Of course both the Celts and Vikings commonly buried warriors of renown in elaborate mounds, many that are still being discovered today. Unlike the Angles or Saxons, the Celts and Vikings tended toward tribalism and a nomadic life, avoiding large population concentrations. Those are the things that stood out to me.

[Aiwendil]

Good points. The Anglo-Saxons did have mead halls much like the Scandinavians, though - indeed, the O.E. word for such a hall was 'meduseld'.

[Rumil]

Hi all,

The Prof's intentions on this are quite revealing. First he gave the Eothraim names from the Dark Age Goths, that were famous horsemen. When they settle in Rohan the names change to Anglo-Saxon.

JRRT considered the Norman conquest a tragedy for English culture (not surprisingly being a Prof of Anglo-Saxon). Therefore in some ways the Rohirrim are a 'fantasy' version of the Anglo Saxons that retained their horsemanship and their independence.

The Goths and English, and later Scandinavians had a number of cultural links and similarities. Certainly the areas of Northern Holland, Germany and Denmark, home of the progenitors of the English and later partly Viking were linked by culture such as the tale of Beowulf, of which JRRT produced a famous translation.

[garm]

I don't think Tolkien had a real-world template in mind when he came up with the Rohirrim. Or at least, not any one race or nation. In a letter he mentions 'Homeric horsemen', for example.

As for the Anglo-Saxon connection: it's true that he used elements of the language to relate the Rohirrim to the rest of Middle earth; A-S is to Rohirric as modern English is to the Westron. But that's about all. Let me quote from Lee and Solpova's excellent book, 'The Keys of Middle earth':

'(Tolkien) states that he was not trying to 're-create' anything but instead was at pains to note that: "No one would learn anything valid about the 'Anglo-Saxons' from any of my lore, not even that concerning the Rohirrim; I never intended that they should" (Tolkien: A30/1,f.121)'
(op.cit. pp.201-2)

The note in brackets refers to a shelf-mark at the Bodleian Library. Lee and Solopova are at pains to point out that others disagree with Tolkien; esp. Tom Shippey, who reckons the Rohirrim resemble Anglo-Saxons in every way, except their love of horses. But I agree with Tolkien - the so-called 'Anglo-Saxon' period covers many peoples and sub-cultures over time; from the migration days of the fifth and sixth centuries to the conversion to Christianity; from the time of Alfred up to the Conquest.

I think Tolkien was speaking professionally - he was not an A-S historian, and in these matters would defer to others who were; such as Sir Frank Stenton. I guess Tolkien was merely being precise.



BTW, Rumil - Tolkien did make a translation of Beowulf, but it hasn't been published - yet! I think you meant Tolkien wrote a famous lecture on Beowulf.

[Aiwendil]

Fair points, garm, but I would suggest that Rohan can resemble Anglo-Saxon England even if it was not based on Anglo-Saxon England. Certainly the maxim 'the Rohirrim are the Anglo-Saxons with horses' is much too simplistic. But given the importance Tolkien placed on language, it seems to me that it would have been almost impossible for him to have treated the Rohirric speech as Old English without also imparting to them something of the English culture, the outlook, the 'mood', for lack of a better word.

One finds, first of all, a lot of linguistic or partially linguistic similarities that go beyond what is necessary for the 'translator conceit'. For example, there is their consistent use of the pattern 'Theoden king' instead of 'king Theoden', which matches the Anglo-Saxon phrasing (e.g. 'Aelfraed cyning'). There is the name 'the Mark', which certainly seems to have been inspired by Mercia. There is their poetry, which is consistently rendered in alliterative verse (and English-style alliterative verse at that, quite different from Tolkien's Norse-style alliterative verse found in the Lays of Sigurd and Gudrun).

As for extra-linguistic similarities, there is the fact that both the Rohirrim and the Anglo-Saxons first migrated to their respective countries in response to a call for aid from the older inhabitants of the land: Eorl coming at the summons of Cirion and, according to legend, Hengest and Horsa at the summons of Vortigern. And to reinforce this parallel, we have the reference to Helm's Deep having been built 'with the hands of giants', suggesting that the later Rohirrim stood in much the same relation to the Numenorean relics in their land as the Anglo-Saxons did to the Romano-British in theirs.

And there are other small but concrete similarities. For example, the laying aside of weapons before Aragorn and company enter Meduseld closely matches that before Beowulf enters Heorot. I don't suggest that any of this means that the Rohirrim 'are' the English in some sense; nor, of course, does it mean that there are no differences between them. But I think these similarities are sufficient reason to say that Rohan resembles Anglo-Saxon England.

[Lastande Took]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Certainly the maxim 'the Rohirrim are the Anglo-Saxons with horses' is much too simplistic.

I don't suggest that any of this means that the Rohirrim 'are' the English in some sense; nor, of course, does it mean that there are no differences between them. But I think these similarities are sufficient reason to say that Rohan resembles Anglo-Saxon England.

Wow. You know your stuff, and I am in agreement with you.

[mysteryman3]

I have to say, I found more than I expected when I looked on this forum. I have been writing novels (have not approached a publisher so far) since I was in year 9, which was 5 years ago. The afternoon that I finished my final year 12 exam, I decided to have a LotR marathon, and watched the movies over the next 2 days. After watching them, I had an irrepressable urge to write a sequel to 'The Return Of The King'. This was partly because I was sad that the fellowship had ended and I wanted to bring the characters back together again. After weeks of doing research on the Tolkien universe (up until then a was not a huge fan of LotR and therefore not very knowledgeable), I lost interest in the excercise. On the 11th of July 2012, I watched 'The Fellowship' with my family. While watching it, a few ideas began to form in my mind. The next night we watched 'The Two Towers', and the night after that we finished 'The Return Of The King'. By this time I had some pretty good ideas and began writing. Due to the fact that I am starting a carpentry course tomorrow, I have not been writing non-stop, but I have reached page 9 and the concepts for the story are already so big that I do not believe they will all fit in a single novel. I came on here looking for advice on whether I would breach copyright by writing my story. I can see that I need to contact Christopher at the very least before getting published. I have also been thinking that it might be good to post some of the story online and see what genuine hardcore fans of Tolkien (not just LotR) think of it.

Would such a thing be against copyright? If not, I will post some of it where suggested and take onboard the feedback.

[mysteryman3]

In my previous post, I did not give any clues as to the contents of my story, or the nature of the concepts in it. As soon as I recieve a reply, I will be happy to discuss what I have written so far. Just to give an indication of how you may like it, my family all think it is excellent (although they would probably have said that anyway if it was terrible), but I have tried to stay true to the grammar and style of Tolkien, as well as the lore of Middle Earth. I have also not used any finished ideas, leaving them finished. I am using ideas that Tolkien left 'open' and only partially explored.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by mysteryman3

In my previous post, I did not give any clues as to the contents of my story, or the nature of the concepts in it. As soon as I recieve a reply, I will be happy to discuss what I have written so far. Just to give an indication of how you may like it, my family all think it is excellent (although they would probably have said that anyway if it was terrible), but I have tried to stay true to the grammar and style of Tolkien, as well as the lore of Middle Earth. I have also not used any finished ideas, leaving them finished. I am using ideas that Tolkien left 'open' and only partially explored.

Yes, it is against copyright. No, Christopher Tolkien will never grant you approval. Never. Ever. What you are writing is called "fan-fiction" and the Internet is filled with it. Thousands upon thousands of stories, novellas and novels. Some are good, but most are not fit to line a bird cage.

FanFiction.net has over 46,000 such offerings, and none of it can be published: Lord of the Rings Stories Index

Post your story there, and perhaps get it reviewed by other fans. Otherwise, think of something original to write. Because, chances are, your plot has already been written ten times over.

[mysteryman3]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Otherwise, think of something original to write. Because, chances are, your plot has already been written ten times over.

I never said that my story wasn't original, and I highly doubt that even one other fan-fiction writer came up with the same ideas as myself. Despite what you and many other people may think of me, I can assure you that I am not a simple fan-fiction writer, and I do have considerable skill as a writer. I am wincing at the fact that I sound boastful, but I do feel that I need to convince you that I am not simply another Tolkien wannabe.

My story is entirely original, using only the verified facts of Tolkien's universe and my own original ideas. The story both develops and expands upon unfinished concepts which Tolkien includes in his own published works, not least among them being vampires and werewolves. The Necromancer, for example, becomes a vampire or a similar creature according to the Silmarilion (I do apologise if that is incorrect as I have personally never read the Silmarilion). In addition, much of the story takes place in the far far east, which has so far been overlooked in the way of physical details.

In short, the purpose of my first attempt (18 months ago) to write a sequel was based on the desire to continue a finished and completed story. Obviously this was doomed to fail no matter how far I got. This time, the aim for writing a sequel is to look more closely at the creatures which have been excluded (for the most part) from the major published works. Very little has been written about them and I'm trying to tell their tale.

However, thank you for the advice on where to post my story, and despite my post, I do take on board all criticism, judgement, encouragement, and advice (just as every writer does whether they try to or not). As the published action author Matthew Reilly is fond of saying - "To anyone who knows a writer, never underestimate the power of your encouragement."

[Mumriken]

Thing is mysteryman as long as your story isn't approved by Christopher Tolkien it will remain fan fiction no matter how well written it is. Also if you write this story and profit from it you will surely be sued.

[mysteryman3]

Okay, so you guys are saying that what I write is fan fiction by definition, not by design. Now that makes more sense. Thanks.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by mysteryman3

I never said that my story wasn't original, and I highly doubt that even one other fan-fiction writer came up with the same ideas as myself. Despite what you and many other people may think of me, I can assure you that I am not a simple fan-fiction writer, and I do have considerable skill as a writer. I am wincing at the fact that I sound boastful, but I do feel that I need to convince you that I am not simply another Tolkien wannabe.

There are several fine writers of Tolkien fan-fiction on this very site. That they write fan-fiction does not detract from their writing skills; however, they are at least aware they are writing fan-fiction.

Originally Posted by mysteryman3

My story is entirely original, using only the verified facts of Tolkien's universe and my own original ideas. The story both develops and expands upon unfinished concepts which Tolkien includes in his own published works, not least among them being vampires and werewolves. The Necromancer, for example, becomes a vampire or a similar creature according to the Silmarilion (I do apologise if that is incorrect as I have personally never read the Silmarilion). In addition, much of the story takes place in the far far east, which has so far been overlooked in the way of physical details.

As a newly-minted writer of fan-fiction, you do yourself a disservice having not read The Silmarillion, or the 12 volume History of Middle-earth, for that matter. You may well find the "unfinished concepts" you are grappling with are dealt with in more detail than you are aware of, including a more complete picture of Sauron the Maia, lieutenant of Morgoth Bauglir, who in his long history was known as Mairon, Gorthaur the Cruel, Thu the Hunter, Annatar and the Necromancer. And the history of Far Eastern Middle-earth has been dealt with in great detail by other fan-fiction writers.

[mysteryman3]

Thanks for the help guys. Your help is greatly appreciated. I knew it was a good idea to ask for help on the web. I think I'll do some more research (like reading the Silmarillion) before I continue writing.

[Mithalwen]

"Can I / someone else write / complete / develop my / their own version of one of these unfinished tales ? (or any others)
The simple answer is NO.
You are of course free to do whatever you like for your own private enjoyment, but there is no question of any commercial exploitation of this form of "fan-fiction".
Also, in these days of the Internet, and privately produced collectors’ items for sale on eBay, we must make it as clear as possible that the Tolkien Estate never has, and never will authorize the commercialisation or distribution of any works of this type.
The Estate exists to defend the integrity of J.R.R. Tolkien’s writings. Christopher Tolkien's work as his father’s literary executor has always been to publish as faithfully and honestly as possible his father's completed and uncompleted works, without adaptation or embellishment"

[Lalwendë]

It's not entirely true that no other writer has been allowed to publish material based on Tolkien's work. There was The Fall of Gondolin by Alex Lewis. However, and it's a fairly big caveat, he directly asked for the approval of Priscilla Tolkien (some say, it was perhaps a fait accompli that she was presented with - the Tolkien Society is rife with gossips so who knows...) and it was limited to a strictly private publication of fifty copies only!

Don't be put off though, fan fiction is worth doing. I've had fun myself on this site, taking part in our RPGs, which are often based on developing unfinished ideas/tales (take a look, they're great). And if you want more recognition then use it as a basis for your own creation. If it's an original idea then it may well stand a move out of Middle-earth and into your own created world.

There is one Englishwoman currently making a mint out of her altered fan fic of Twilight. What she wrote in my opinion deserves nothing more than hearty belly laughs, what you propose sounds much more interesting and if you can turn it round and make it your own I'm sure it should be good.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

It's not entirely true that no other writer has been allowed to publish material based on Tolkien's work. There was The Fall of Gondolin by Alex Lewis. However, and it's a fairly big caveat, he directly asked for the approval of Priscilla Tolkien (some say, it was perhaps a fait accompli that she was presented with - the Tolkien Society is rife with gossips so who knows...) and it was limited to a strictly private publication of fifty copies only!

However, Lewis' Fall of Gondolin wasn't really fan-fic, but rather Tolkien's own Gondolin texts sutured together.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Returning to the question of the Rohirrim and their associations with Anglo-Saxon England, it's significant that Tolkien's professional interest was not in a specific period but a particular place. The texts on which he published his most influential academic work were largely products of the West Midlands (with the exception of Beowulf, the production of which has been located to every part of England at some time or another). The part of the Midlands from which Tolkien's Suffield relatives hailed was well within the borders of the old kingdom of Mercia, as is Oxford, and when Tolkien threatened to start speaking only Old English, it was the Mercian dialect that he said he would adopt.

What has this to do with Rohirrim? Well, you only have to look at Mercia to realise that it can't be an English word. It's obviously the Latin version of the English place-name, which would be something like mærc. If this were to take the hard Scandinavian ending that would have been present in the north Midlands under the Danelaw it would be mark - the borderland. Riddermark is simply 'borderland of the horsemen'. Interestingly, Farmer Giles' Middle Kingdom can be plausibly identified with Mercia too, even down to the place-names. Obviously this is an argument that Tom Shippey has used in the past, along with his point for point comparison of the arrival of Aragorn's company in Edoras with Beowulf's arrival at Heorot. Perhaps it's fairer to say, though, that the Rohirrim are heavily influenced by Anglo-Saxon culture and language, perhaps an image of how the Mercians could have been, than to say that they are identical to them.