Radagast's Whereabouts and Gandalf's Plan...

2 Things.
1. I'm aware that Radagast's wherabouts have been previously discussed, but is it possible that Saruman captured him and used him to handle the crebain and wargs?

2. What WAS Gandalf's plan for getting into Mordor? If all things went well, and the fellowship stayed together, where did Gandalf plan to go, to get into Mordor?
It was obvious that he and Elrond were constantly looking at maps to see the best routes, but where would they go? Did Gandalf know about Shelob's Passage? Was there some secret mountain pass we don't know about? Did he plan to take a long road around?
Gimme your thoughts...

[Meneltarmacil]

Welcome to the Downs, OrcChieftain! Enjoy being dead! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

These are just my opinions.

Radagast was probably off wandering around somewhere else and probably wasn't captured or killed or anything.

Gandalf was most likely going to try the Black Gate.

[ July 22, 2003: Message edited by: Meneltarmacil ]

[Frodo2968thewhite]

1. Radagast helped in the capture of Gandalf and the escape, so oddly enough, it if possible, but not at all likely.
2. My thoughts are that Gandalf would have stayed west of the Misty Mountains until the Gap of Rohan, and then headed down towards Edoras. From there, they would probably go east across Nen Hithoel to Emyn Muil, across to the Dead Marshes area. And finally, make a pass north of Cirith Ungol, near Morgai, because it's closest to Oroduin, yet out of any orc's sight.

[lore_master]

maybe he was planning on going around the ash mountains and come behind orodruin

maybe

[Noxomanus]

Radagast allways intruges me.So mysterious.

[Finwe]

Radagast was probably wandering about near his house, but we do know that he was instrumental in sending Gwaihir to Isengard, which meant that without him, Gandalf wouldn't have escaped, and the Fellowship wouldn't have gotten where it was.

I don't think Gandalf really had a plan for Mordor. He seems to be the type that would get there first, scout out the situation, send Aragorn and Legolas ahead as scouts, and then make a decision based on what they reported back, or something like that.

[The Saucepan Man]

I don't think Gandalf really had a plan for Mordor.

No, I don't suppose that he did either, Finwe. He would have been only too aware that situations would arise which could not be predicted, but which would guide the path of the Quest. He also probably recognised (and perhaps intended) that not all of the Fellowship would make the journey to Mordor. And he knew that no-one, not even Frodo, would be able willingly to destroy the Ring when it came to it.

So I would imagine that his only firm plan at the start was to set out from Rivendell in the direction of Mordor. While he could by no means be certain that the Quest would succeed, he put his faith in providence (Iluvatar) to guide it to its conclusion.

Much the same can be said, I think, about the Quest of Erebor. His intention in bringing Thorin and Bilbo together and setting out with them for Erebor was to deal with Smaug, who he feared "Sauron might use with terrible effect", and to ensure that some resistance lay in the way of Sauron should he try to "regain the northern passes in the mountains and the old lands of Angmar". But he had no more idea about how Thorin, Bilbo and co might go about defeating Smaug than he did about how the Ring might be taken into Mordor and cast into Orodruin.

Two passages in particular in The Quest of Erebor in Unfinished Tales show Gandalf's reliance on providence to ensure the completion of this Quest. In relating how he came to line up Bilbo to accompany Thorin and company, he says:

I did no more than follow the lead of "chance", and made many mistakes on the way.

Then, having told his tale of how the company was assembled, he says:

So it was that the Quest of Erebor set out. I do not suppose that when it started Thorin had any real hope of destroying Smaug. There was no hope. Yet it happened.

I should imagine that Gandalf felt much the same way when the Fellowship set out from Rivendell.

[ July 22, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Lord of Angmar]

I think that the most important thing to acknowledge is that Gandalf knew, or thought, that the entire Quest was hopeless, but given the scenario there was no choice but to attempt it. Let us also not forget that Frodo took it upon himself to destroy the Ring, Gandalf did not force it on him, so it was Frodo's burden and it would be he who had to make the final decision at the Cracks of Doom.

[Finwe]

If Gandalf had been with Frodo at the Cracks of Doom, then he would have done what he had to, no questions asked. If it was necessary to push Frodo in, then he would have done so. If it wasn't, then he would have saved him.

[Silmiel of Imladris]

He seems to be the type that would get there first, scout out the situation, send Aragorn and Legolas ahead as scouts, and then make a decision based on what they reported back, or something like that.

If they came back. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Radagast lived in Southern Mirkwood so it is my belief that he might of hung out with the Elves in the north. For didn't Legolas say that he feared that his own lands were being attacked. Radagast could have possible stayed and helped Thranduil if Mirkwood was attacked.

Welcome to the Downs, OrcChieftain! Enjoy being dead! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]:

Thanks, I had an account a long time ago, but that was to an email long forgotten, so I had to make a new one, recently I've just been lurking...

Gandalf was most likely going to try the Black Gate.

How would he have gotten in? It's not like gandalf carries around C4 with him [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
As to him using combination of his magic and his ring, I suppose that's possible, but were the Black Gates made of steel, or rock? I wasn't sure on this one... But I don't think Marching through the front door would have been very possible. Think of how many orcs you see swarming the fellowship in Moria, X20.
"Not with 10,000 men could you do this, it is folly"(sorry for the movie quote [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img])

2. My thoughts are that Gandalf would have stayed west of the Misty Mountains until the Gap of Rohan, and then headed down towards Edoras.

Gandalf did know of Saruman's betrayal, so I don't know if he would have headed down that way, and taking it to Edoras? With Edoras in the tumult it was in, and them being men(no matter how pure) I don't think the ring would have been very safe there.

maybe he was planning on going around the ash mountains and come behind orodruin

While I am not sure exactly where Gandalf went in all his years, I doubt he went north of mordor. South it is quite possible, considering he knew what he was called in the Haradrim's tongue. Maybe, just maybe he thought he could take some desert-fairing pack animals through the Sutherland. Although I do not know how many water sources you would get after the river Poros, and the Bay of Belfas. Getting through the desert or past the Haradrim, Corsairs, Mumakil's, Variags(people of Khand). Gandalf probably either didn't know or feared the east. Going around seemed to long, and perilous.

And as to if Frodo would be pushed in by good ol' Gandalf, He might try and "control" Frodo,
"Make you? I could have, but that would have broken your mind"
Or something like that....
Yes gandalf, would push in Frodo, if need be.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Gandalf knew, or thought, that the entire Quest was hopeless,(Lord of Angmar)

Not totally hopeless, but unlikely. He had faith in it. If it was, as you say, completely without a glimmer of hope, then he would not have attempted it. The point was that the odds were against it, but the great daring of Frodo expedition did manage to pull it off, as Gandalf had hoped they would. Remember the Council of Elrond.

'Despair or folly? For despair is only for those who see the end beyond al doubt. We do not.'

Gandalf goes on to state that he does in fact see the only possibility of the salvation of the West in the proposed mission of Mount Doom.

2. My thoughts are that Gandalf would have stayed west of the Misty Mountains until the Gap of Rohan, and then headed down towards Edoras. (Frodo2968)

>??? It was Gandalf that took the Company into Moria to begin with, so I don't know how you manage to work this out. The course that Aragorn took -- i.e. to Lothlorien -- was exactly what Gandalf had planned. The reasons why the Gap of Rohan was not attempted Gandalf states, when the Company are debating the path they should take.

Hmm, Chieftan, why shouldn't he have gone North of Mordor? The country above the Lithui was fairly safe for a long time. He didn't go East, but the West of Middle-Earth had been well-explored by him. There is no reason why he shouln't have entered this area in his long travels. He knew it well, anyway. I seem to recall though that, to the South, Near Harad was as far as he explored Southwards, if indeed the name Incanus was not given to him in Gondor (in this case it would be a Westron name; certainly it does seem a possible Adunaic word, although in this case 'k' would normally be used).

[Lord of Angmar]

I used the word "hopeless" because he could see no final hope for the quest. He himself often used the words "hopeless" and "without hope" to describe Frodo's mission, though he did not rule out the possibility of success entirely. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I think perhaps Tolkien's idea of hope differs slightly from ours.

1.I think Radagast did not aid saruman
2.I do Beleive He aided Gandalf with his escape.
3.After he helped Gandalf I think he went in search of the 2 blue wizards

[Noxomanus]

if you ask me Radagast stayed somewhere in Rhovanion and certainly didn't go searching the blue wizards.

[Lord of Angmar]

I doubt that he went in search of the Blue Wizards, and I am also quite sure that he did not aid Saruman (willingly, that is). Perhaps he had something to do with Gandalf's escape. I believe that Radagast probably went on a ship (perhaps one of the last to set sail) into the West. While it is true that he wasn't true to his quest as a Wizard, he also did not utterly forsake the people of Middle Earth nor did he do any harm to them. Thus, being a Maiar, I think he was granted permission to return to the Uttermost West (whether he actually did sail into the West is a subject open to debate).

[doug*platypus]

Hmm... definitely two threads here; like most of the other posters, the Gandalf question is almost infinitely more interesting to me.

I feel that any speculation about what Gandy would have done at Mount Doom or even within Mordor is irrelevant. Even if he had not fallen out of the plot at Moria, I am positive that something else would have drawn him away from the final quest; in the end it was up to the hobbits to complete the mission that they had been chosen for.

Gandalf's skills were best used in other arenas. We can say that chance brought him to Fangorn and Rohan, but I don't think there is any denying that a more powerful force would have laid his path west of Anduin rather than east. Call this force fate, Ilúvatar or the author, any way it is overwhelming.

Also remember the fact that Glorfindel was not chosen to accompany the hobbits, with words something like "he could not open the path to the fire by the power that was in him". On Caradhras, as soon as Mr Grey pulls a basic firestarting trick out of his hat, his identity is revealed to anyone interested within a large area. Gandalf accompanying the Ring into Mordor would have imperilled the mission rather than aided it. I am sure that even if no outside force had intervened to draw him off, in the end Gandalf would have chosen not to enter Mordor. Most likely, I think he would have had Sméagol lead the way, and chosen Gimli and Legolas to help.

I also fully agree with Saucepan Man (congrats on the PT by the way!!) about Gandalf's willingness to go with the flow, not to plan every minute detail, and to some extent to allow events to follow their course (after he personally had set them in motion). Gandalf almost always chooses to empower others rather than dictate; he's a model of effective leadership and true greatness.

[Lord of Angmar]

I too believe that Gandalf would not have accompanied the hobbits all the way to Orodruin, nor do I believe any member of any other race would have done so. What Tolkien's purpose was all along, and what Gandalf hinted at, was that it was the Little People, specifically Frodo, who were meant to see this quest to its fulfilment or its fruitless end.

Doug*platypus, that is quite an ominous number of posts! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Blue Wizards? Oh heck no. If he wanted to look for the Blue Wizards, he would have done it a LONG time ago.

and I am also quite sure that he did not aid Saruman (willingly, that is). -Lord of Angmar

That's what I implied. That Saruman sent a group of uruks to go get Radagast. Or maybe he invited him over(Radagast still trusting him) How would Saruman control the beasts? Does his voice apply to the crebain and wargs? I would figure it wouldn't as they most probably can't understand any humanoid tongue. Radagast, could speak, and most probably master all beasts and birds, I'm too lazy to look up the quote...

But I could have sworn that I read that Gandalf checked out's Raddie's house and it said it looked as though it had been left in a hurry and there was no sign of Radagast.

Lord Angmar, as to Radagast sailing to the West, I don't think so. I think he preffered his household, and conferring with the birds and beasts of Middle-Earth. I'm sure he was quite happy in his little outpost in Rhovannion. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

I too believe that Gandalf would not have accompanied the hobbits all the way to Orodruin, nor do I believe any member of any other race would have done so.

You don't think anyone would have travelled with them from another race? I seriously doubt that Aragorn would just say "Well, good luck Frodo" and walk west to Minas Tirith. He would have stayed with them to the end. Im also not sure about Legolas and Gimli just skipping out, although their homes WERE fairly near, they always seemed the staying types. Legolas, being of "pure" heritage and noble heart.As to Gimli, I don't think he would try to take the ring, too soon. It'd probably "GIVE ME THE MITHRIL COAT, FRODO!" [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]:

Couldn't a scout of the eagles been flying near Isengard(to keep an eye on them) and seen Gandalf and told Gwaihir? Or maybe even the great eagle himself was there, I don't think Saruman had archers that could shoot THAT high [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Hmm.. I think I'm rambling....

[ July 27, 2003: Message edited by: OrcChieftain ]

[Lhunardawen]

Blue Wizards? Oh heck no. If he wanted to look for the Blue Wizards, he would have done it a LONG time ago.

It would be hopeless for him to do that.
I read in "Unfinished Tales" that there is a possibility that the Blue Wizards were enticed by Sauron and became his... you know!
That is just a possibility, but no one really knows.

As for the path of Gandalf, definitely it is not were Frodo and Sam were led by Gollum. Maybe they shouldn't even have met Faramir if they were going Gandalf's way, if they knew it. Remember Gandalf's reaction while Faramir was speaking to him (and to Denethor) about the two hobbits?