Invisibility and the Ring!

[Maédhros]

I have always wondered about the One Ring and the fact that it could made a Human or a Hobbit "invisible". How could a ring do such a thing? Would an elf be rendered invisible too?
Let us look at Sauron:
He's an ëalar
From Morgoth's Ring: Later Quentas

'spirit' (not incarnate, which was fëa, S[indarin] fae). ëala 'being'.

Sauron decided to clothe himself, he became incarnated himself, and the longer a spirit uses a hröa, it becomes more depended on it.
Because Sauron was a maia, (one of the most powerful), when he made his Ring, he had the ability, if you will, to control his spirit and hröa more than an elf or a man, and that is why he wouldn't become "invisible" when he put it on.
Let's take a look at the Children of Ilúvatar:
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed

The nature of an Elvish fëa was to endure the world to the end, and an Elvish hroa was also longeval by nature; so that an Elvish fëa finding that its hroa endured with it, supporting its indwelling and remaining unwearied in bodily delight, would have increased and more lasting joy

Men on the other hand, had another path. Their fëar were not meant to endure the lenght of Arda, so after a while, when their bodies were slained, they left Arda. Also Men had less control over their hröa than an elf would.
From Morgoth's Ring: Later Quentas

Indeed in their earlier days death came more readily; for their bodies were then less different from the bodies of Men, and the command of their spirits over their bodies less complete.
This command was, nonetheless, at all times greater than it has ever been among Men. From their beginnings the chief difference between Elves and Men lay in the fate and nature of their spirits. The fëar of the Elves were destined to dwell in Arda for all the life of Arda, and the death of the flesh did not abrogate that destiny. Their fëar were tenacious therefore of life 'in the raiment of Arda', and far excelled the spirits of Men in power over that 'raiment', even from the first days protecting their bodies from many ills and assaults (such as disease), and healing them swiftly of injuries, so that they recovered from wounds that would have proved fatal to Men.

Ok, so now we know the characteristics of the fëar and hröar on Ainur, Elves and Men. Let's see the "invisible" part of it.
From LOTR: A Knife in the Dark

Immediately, though everything else remained as before, dim and dark, the shapes became terribly clear. He was able to see beneath their black wrappings. There were five tall figures: two standing on the lip of the dell, three advancing. In their white faces burned keen and merciless eyes; under their mantles were long grey robes; upon their grey hairs were helms of silver; in their haggard hands were swords of steel. Their eyes fell on him and pierced him, as they rushed towards him. Desperate, he drew his own sword, and it seemed to him that it flickered red, as if it was a firebrand. Two of the figures halted. The third was taller than the others: his hair was long and gleaming and on his helm was a crown. In one hand he held a long sword, and in the other a knife; both the knife and the hand that held it glowed with a pale light. He sprang forward and bore down on Frodo.

Notice that when Frodo puts the Ring on, he is "transported" to the spirit world, he can see the fëar of the Nazgûl. It is my belief that because Frodo is a hobbit, he has not the control over his hröa as an elf or a maia would, and therefore he is unable to control the Ring and therefore he became "invisible". This applies to Men too because Hobbits are related to Men.
My guess is that an experienced elf or a Maia could wield the Ring without becoming "invisible".
What about the effects of the Ring on the fëar and hröar of a Men?
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed

Very soon then the fëa and hröa of a Man in Aman would not be united and at peace, but would be opposed, to the great pain of both. The hröa being in full vigour and joy of life would cling to the fëa, lest its departure should bring death; and against death it would revolt as would a great beast in full life either flee from the hunter or turn savagely upon him. But the fëa would be as it were in prison, becoming ever more weary of all the delights of the hröa, until they were loathsome to it, longing ever more and more to be gone, until even those matters for its thought that it received through the hröa and its senses became meaningless.

The ring grants you more life, but does it? The ring prolongs the endurance of the hröa but it's not a good thing for a Men or Hobbit because they become trapped by it, and in time they begin to feel the effects of it like Bilbo and Gollum.
From LOTR:Many Meetings

'I am old, Gandalf. I don’t look it, but I am beginning to feel it in my heart of hearts. Well-preserved indeed!’ he snorted. ‘Why, I feel all thin, sort of stretched, if you know what I mean: like butter that has been scraped over too much bread. That can’t be right. I need a change, or something.’

My conclusion is that the Rings grants you in a certain way, the scenario planted of what would happen if a Men was granted immortality of the hröa, (up to a certain point). Something that goes against the will of Ilúvatar ends bad. The wearer would not be blessed but cursed.
From LOTR: A Shadow of the Past

In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds: some more potent and some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles - yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals. But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous.
‘A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him.’

Looking at that quote, I would say that if an Elf would put on the One Ring, it would not become invisible, as a mortal would. As I have said before, I think it has to do with the fact that Elves had a better mastery of their hröa than a mortal would.

[Maédhros]

3 Rings for the Elven Kings under the Sky?
If the 3 Rings of the Elves, were considered great, then if an elf would wear them, i believe that it would not make them invisible, partly because of what i have been saying in a recent posts that the Elves have more natural control over their hröar than Mortals do.
Now, a question comes to my mind, if the 3 Rings made by the Elves (Celebrimbor) were considered to be great rings, and they made you fade too, does that means that if a Mortal were to use them, would they too in the end fade and suffer the same fate as would a mortal using the One Ring?
Che pensi tu?

[Ancalagon'sFire]

I was always under the impression that none of the 3 great rings conferred invisiblity upon the bearer?

The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility.

Letter 131.

I disagree that Elves would not be subject to invisibility however. The Ring itself in effect contains a greater part of Saurons fëar(Spirit/Will). Irrespective of his posession of the Ring, the 9 had already diminished and in effect been devoured of their hröa by Sauron. In other words,through the One he devoured both their will, their dominion (for what it's worth) over their own fëa and the removed their hröa from the physical world. Only as long as the Ring is complete, can these 9 be considered 'living' as wraiths. For Men; fëa and hröa are inseparable, once separated, death occurs. Sauron however manages this through mastery over their spirits, keeping them under his will and unable to depart in the way any mans spirit ought to upon his death. The invisibility incurred directly through the one ring, is a due to the overbearing inbalance of fëa over hröa. The potency of Saurons own spirit conferred to the Ring, combined with the spirit of the bearer, overshadows the body drawing them out of the physical world, and into the spiritual realm. It is instant with the ring directly, but slower and prolonged with lesser rings that are controlled by the One. Continued use of the One Ring by any bearer effectively completes the bearers departure from a physical being to a wraith.

They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thraldom of the ring that they bore and under the domination of the One, which was Sauron's. And they became for ever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows. The Nazgûl were they, the Ringwraiths, the Enemy's most terrible servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death.

Why would immediate invisibility not directly effect an Elf when their own fëa is combined with the potency of Sauron's through the Ring? Surely if an Elf's own spirit can consume the body that houses it, they would be more susceptible to invisibility than Men!

I can only hope this makes sense to you, because I am finding great difficulty in trying to explain it [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Maédhros]

I was always under the impression that none of the 3 great rings conferred invisiblity upon the bearer?

Me too. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Lots of ideas flying in my mind at that time.

Why would immediate invisibility not directly effect an Elf when their own fëa is combined with the potency of Sauron's through the Ring? Surely if an Elf's own spirit can consume the body that houses it, they would be more susceptible to invisibility than Men!

Granted that this is only speculation from my part but i believe that the fact that Elves had more native control over their hröa than men did.
I do not recall an elf using the One Ring, so it's only a guess.

[Angry Hill Troll]

Interesting topic Maédros!

I think we're left with an unresolvable enigma on why the 3 Rings don't confer invisibility:

1) They aren't like the other rings and therefore don't make the wearer (any wearer) invisible.

2) They would make a human or hobbit invisible, but they don't make their wearers invisible because their wearers have always been elves (or a maia in the case of Narya) who aren't subject to invisibility.

I'm not sure we have any way to choose between these possibilities.

(aside--imagine if Gollum had found one of the Three rings and it didn't make him invisible. Maybe he could have used it to keep his fish fresh, since they ward off decay) [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] )

Back to serious discussion: The other passage that may shed light on all this is Frodo's discussion with Gandalf when he wakes up in Rivendell. Frodo mentions that everything around him was fading out (Gandalf explains he was slipping into the wraith world) except Glorfindel. Gandal mentions something to the effect that

...those who have seen the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds.

Since Glorfindel was simultaneously visible to both the Nazgul and the hobbits, I have to believe that if he were to put on the One Ring, he would have remained so. Is this because he was an elf, or because he had been to Aman? Gandalf's statement would seem to imply the latter... I guess we could use Elrond as a test case, give him the One Ring, and see if he becomes invisible [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

We do know that Tom Bombadil didn't become invisible after putting on the Ring. I'm not going to open the can of worms as to how Tom should be classified, but one explanation for the lack of invisibility is that Tom was in the world before Melkor brought evil, when essentially everything was like Valinor is in the 3rd Age.

[Angry Hill Troll]

Sorry for misspelling your name Maédhros...I knew it didn't look right

[Lalaith]

I'd never thought about why the Ring made you invisible, that's a very well-thought out thesis, Maédhros.
One speculation - Gandalf, not an elf, wears one of the Three. He was born as pure spirit - his hroa is something assumed. The ring he wears clearly has no effect on his assumed hroa.
I've no idea if this point is in the slightest bit helpful to the discussion but there you go.

[Maédhros]

One speculation - Gandalf, not an elf, wears one of the Three. He was born as pure spirit - his hroa is something assumed. The ring he wears clearly has no effect on his assumed hroa.

In the letters it states that Gandalf would have been able to control the one Ring, so it is almost a fact that he wouldn't be affected by the "invisibility" of the One ring.
But I also believe that a Maia would not be affected by the invisibility of the Ring, because they too are ëalar like Sauron.

[doug*platypus]

As Dragonbreath alludes to in his excellent post (PM me if the name bugs you and I'll edit it), Letter 131 is an absolute goldmine of information. The Rings of Power are discussed at length, and Tolkien tells us that they were all designed to preserve and to halt decay. Previously I thought this was a property only of the three. Also, we are told explicitly that the three do not confer invisibility, and that this power of invisibility was a device of Sauron. Certainly it does seem to be an evil type of magic, although obviously of great benefit to goodies such as Bilbo and Isildur.

They would make a human or hobbit invisible

Not correct, O Angry One. The answer, however, is only found (to my knowledge) in Letter 131. The more puzzling question is what would happen to an elf who wore one of the rings that did confer invisibility. I can see no reason why they would not become invisible to those on the physical plane. As has been pointed out, elves (or at least Calaquendi) are visible at all times on the spiritual plane. So the invisibility conferred by a Ring of Power would have a different effect on the spiritual aspect of the elf (the fëa if you like, although I don't know if this is the right context for the word).

It's an interesting whatif, this ring crossover. It is likely that the rings were crafted with the intended race in mind, and that they were each specially tailored to them. The dwarf rings were believed to attract gold. Possibly the effects would not work if the ring were wielded by another race. Although of course, the One Ring itself is proof against this. It can be used (with varying degrees of success) by maia (Sauron/Saruman/Gandalf), elf (Galadriel), man (Isildur), hobbit (Frodo/Bilbo/Sam) or hobbitlike creature (Gollum), and so possibly the same could be said for all the Rings of Power. It is likely that the success of the user would be in large part determined by their race, as with the One Ring its most powerful users would most likely have been the Maiar.

Reading Letter 131 and this thread gives me a new appreciation for the Rings of Power. They all (bar the Three) give the wearer the ability to look into the spiritual realm. I imagine this ability was often taken advantage of by their owners for various reasons. The men who were sorcerors, such as Witchy, would doubtless have used this power often, and been easier to ensnare. Perhaps the dwarflords were not so keen on what they saw as this namby-pamby aspect of their ring, and did not wear them so often. I imagine that being invisible to your subjects would more often than not be very inconvenient. It is possible that this was one factor in their resilience to the domination of Sauron. The elven ringbearers did not wear their rings when Sauron wore the One, and so were safe from his domination.

Gandalf and Saruman, in their forms as Istari, were I believe incarnate, and did not have the same power that Sauron would have had over his invisibility. In their original forms, this would have been a different story, but I think that if Gandalf or Saruman in Middle-Earth had put on a Ring of Power (excepting the Three) they would have become invisible. Which shows that Saruman's ring was not a very good copy, or that Sauron himself had to imbue the power of invisibility, or that it was not recorded how it was done.

[Ancalagon'sFire]

Dragonbreath is fine Doug, my duck-billed friend [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

It is likely that the rings were crafted with the intended race in mind, and that they were each specially tailored to them. The dwarf rings were believed to attract gold.

I wonder if this deserves a thread of its own? Personally, I do not agree with this theory that rings were designed by Sauron based on the weakness or desires of the race to whom he gave them. I believe all Rings were made with the purpose of controlling the bearers, hence the reason for selecting Kings and Lords.

And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them. ]The Silmarillion

The problem with the Dwarves was their resilience and hardiness, especially in relation to resisting Sauron's control over their will. However, the desire for gold combined with the potency of the Rings they wore seemed to be an unsought and eventually beneficial side-effect in Sauron's favour.

The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an over-mastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of which evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron. It is said that the foundation of each of the Seven Hoards of the Dwarf-kings of old was a golden ring; but all those hoards long ago were plundered and the Dragons devoured them, and of the Seven Rings some were consumed in fire and some Sauron recovered.

It leads me to suspect that Sauron might have inadvertently acheived success in weakening the Dwarves, but not in the manner he had planned. I think this quote regarding 'The Ring of Thráin' reveals a little more in relation to their Rings;

This Ring was the last of the Seven. It may well be that this was known to Sauron, and that the singular misfortunes of his House were due to that. For the days were passed when it would bring profit, but demanded payment rather, and its possession brought only the hate of Sauron. For the Dwarves had proved hard to tame. They were too tough, being made of a purpose to resist such onslaughts of evil will and power, and though they could be slain or broken they could not be made into shadows or slaves of any other will; and for like reason their lives were little affected, to live either longer or shorter because of the Ring. The more did Sauron hate them. Nonetheless each possessor kept his ring as a secret unless he surrendered it; and though those about him doubtless guessed it, none knew for certain that Thráin had the Ring. ](IV) Durin's Folk

Could it be that Sauron got lucky, considering all this talk of numerology and lucky 7s?

[ January 26, 2003: Message edited by: Ancalagon'sFire ]

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

About the elven hroa, or that of an experienced Maia, I do not know if Tom Bombadil can be considered Maia, but he is certainly not an elf. So great was his mastery over himself and his own spirit, that when he put the one ring onto his finger, it turned invisible! And when Frodo put the ring on afterward, Tom could still see him! Another interesting note is that the three elven rings were unseen by all eyes, until either the bearer chose to show it or a suspicious person with a scrutinous eye searched. Nobody had any idea that Galadriel had a ring, until she showed it to Frodo, and the same would go for Gandalf and Lord Elrond. It was stated somewhere that the other sixteen rings, those given to men and dwarves, did indeed have the power to turn the wearers invisible. Whether or not the weaker rings (weaker than the one) could be controlled, and the bearers could chose to become invisible, is unknown. But Tom Bombadil certainly supports this theory of how the invisibility of the one ring works.

[The Saucepan Man]

In the letters it states that Gandalf would have been able to control the one Ring, so it is almost a fact that he wouldn't be affected by the "invisibility" of the One ring.

Gandalf may or may not have been affected by the Ring's gift of invisiblity, but he did not consider himself to be immune to its powers. This is clear from The Shadow of the Past, when he is offered the Ring by Frodo:

"No!", cried Gandalf, springing to his feet. "With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly." His eyes flashed and his face was lit as by a fire within. "Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to weild it would be too great for my strength.

So, if the corrupting power of the Ring would have affected him, why not its power of invisibility? Maybe it wouldn't have affected him in his Maia form, but would it not have had power over him in his incarnate form?

[Maédhros]

This is why I think that Gandalf would be unafected by the "invisibility" of the Ring.
From the Letters of JRRT: # 246

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter.

I think that a maia would also be unafected by the "invisibility" of the Ring, but I think that you would need a maia of the same range of power of Sauron to master his ring.

[ January 27, 2003: Message edited by: Maédhros ]

[Maédhros]

I wonder about if the men who had the Rings, could control their invisibility.
From the Published Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Thrid Age

Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron.

Does that means that they while wearing the Ring could turn on-off the invisibility of the Ring or they could only turn invisible while wearing them.