sauron winning?

[Joseph]

I have a question to ask would anyone be able to answer it?
My question is if Frodo had not been able to destroy the ring and sauron had got it back he would have been able to destroy Gondor and taken over middle earth but then what?
Could he have been destroyed another way by say Gandalf or is it possible that the Valar would come back and cast him into the void as they did with Melkor
Also what would have happened if Melkor had been good and Manwe evil. Would it have been the same as in the silmarillion or much much worse?
any ideas?
Thanks
Joseph

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well interesting questions... I think these could be answered in many different ways, but let me start from the end.

At least with Manwë and Melkor, they are said to have been "brothers" in Ilúvatar's mind and it seems, more or less, that they were on a similar level. However, Melkor is said to actually have been possibly even more powerful than Manwë, sharing pieces of power of each of the other Valar. So in this respect, I would actually think it would have been "easier" for the folk in Middle-Earth had Manwë and Melkor switched places, it would have been far easier to overthrow Manwë (and on the other hand, Melkor would have been a far stronger opponent for him). The only advantage for Manwë I could imagine will be that at one point, he would have achieved total "air supremacy" in Middle-Earth, which would result in general spread of agoraphobia. The skies would become feared, as basically at any point you'd be travelling across some wide plain, something big will come upon you from above. Also, Hitchcock's "Birds" would definitely come to effect... eurgh.

The main "advantage" Manwë had against Melkor was his closeness to Ilúvatar, which, of course, he could not use in this scenario. In order to turn evil like Melkor did, Manwë would also have to become arrogant corrupt fool, like Melkor and Sauron did, that means, getting this "overlooking the obvious" syndrom (like becoming too full of himself and as a direct result of that, becoming defeated - as in overlooking two Hobbits in Mordor).

And for the first one, I am certainly convinced that Sauron would have the power to conquer Middle-Earth, as that is said many times. The people at least could not stand against him with force: eventually, they will be defeated. One Gandalf or even Gandalf with Aragorn restored could not save the day. The only remaining chance would have to be a help coming from overseas, but since Valar forbade themselves from assisting directly, not sure how would it be possible. If the situation was dire indeed, they could ask Eru again for a permission to do something (like to send an army of Istari), theoretically, yes, but at most that will be the Last Alliance all over again - I think the point was that the peoples of Middle-Earth need to get rid of the Ring by themselves.

[Mnemosyne]

How strict would the self-ban be, though?

For me the issue would not so much be the Valar's inability to help--but the fact that, if they did help, the Third Age would end just the same as the First and Second--with a cataclysm of epic proportions that would hurt the very people it was trying to help.

Not to mention that then, if the "rescuing army" didn't get too big for its britches, the Peoples of Middle-earth would simply sit on their hands and wait for another miracle when the Next Evil Thing since Sliced Bread cropped up on their doorstep.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

For me the issue would not so much be the Valar's inability to help--but the fact that, if they did help, the Third Age would end just the same as the First and Second--with a cataclysm of epic proportions that would hurt the very people it was trying to help.

My first thought was something quite similar - as Sauron's dominion in the Third Age extended over a much larger part of Middle-earth than Morgoth's in the First, any intervention by the Valar along the lines of War of Wrath Reloaded might have escalated to a continent-wide war which would lay most of the habitable world in ruins. On second thought I realized that they wouldn't actually have had to militarily scour all Rhûn and Near & Far Harad - all they had to do was to get through to Barad-dûr and deal with Sauron himself, which should have been feasible, especially if they acted promptly, while there still was some resistance to him in the West and they wouldn't have had to fight their way all the leagues from the Havens. Once Sauron was overcome, his misled human followers could have been reeducated and (to use a 20th century metaphor) 'denazified', like the Dunlendings after Helm's Deep and the fall of Orthanc.
The bigger problem is that, while Morgoth's forces in the First Age consisted chiefly of Orcs, Trolls, dragons and fallen Maiar, Sauron's in the Third comprised whole nations of Men, and I think we can take it for granted that he would have thrown every available bit of cannon-fodder into their way, so the Valinorean Cavalry could (and probably would) have been facing the necessity to slaughter Ilúvatar's Younger Children by hundred thousands - hurting the very people they were trying to help, as Mnemo put it so well. And as we learn from the Fall of Númenor, the Valar felt the Second-Born were under Eru's personal jurisdiction, so His permission would certainly have been needed.
But even if it was given, this would have been an extremely desperate measure. As Legate and Mnemo said, Mortal Men (including Hobbits) needed to grow up and learn to deal with evil in whatever guise themselves, without overt help from Higher Powers.

[Joseph]

Wow thanks for all your detailed answers to my questions I had forgotten about just how strong Melkor was thank god (as many elves and men i`m sure did) that the Valar won and he was cast out into the void.
I suppose that maybe Ilúvatar could have directly intervened with Sauron had he won maybe?
I do have one question though this being at the end of the world is melkor and Sauron supposed to come back and there be a massive battle bigger that the first, second ,third and all later ages put together with the Silmarillions themselves having something to do with it?
Thanks once again for all your help with the answers to the questions I have pitchwife Mnemosyne and Legate of Amon Lanc.
Regards
Joseph

[Faramir Jones]

Welcome to the Downs, Joseph!

You asked a very interesting question here:

Originally Posted by Joseph

I do have one question though this being at the end of the world is melkor and Sauron supposed to come back and there be a massive battle bigger that the first, second ,third and all later ages put together with the Silmarillions themselves having something to do with it?

Tolkien had this to say about the end of the world in Quenta Silmarillion:

31. Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But Eärendel shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.
32. Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Eärendel shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Fëanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palúrien and she will break them, and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Túrin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.(The History of Middle-earth: V. The Lost Road, p. 333.)

I remember grinning when I first read this, at the fact that Túrin and his family will have their revenge.

[Inziladun]

That's from the Second Prophecy of Mandos in HOME, isn't it Faramir? Fascinating, indeed, and I also like the idea of Túrin dealing Morgoth his death blow However, Túrin might have a problem.

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.

According to the Narn, Gurthang was broken upon Túrin's death, and the shards were buried beside his body. Perhaps they were recovered, and Eöl was 'asked' to reforge them as a sign of good faith.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

However, Túrin might have a problem.

According to the Narn, Gurthang was broken upon Túrin's death, and the shards were buried beside his body. Perhaps they were recovered, and Eöl was 'asked' to reforge them as a sign of good faith.

I don't think there's a problem. By comparison with a Man being brought back from the dead, fixing a sword is easy.

[Andsigil]

Sauron wasn't actually destroyed with the Ring. He not only survived, but has won in this, the Seventh Age.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Sauron wasn't actually destroyed with the Ring. He not only survived, but has won in this, the Seventh Age.

Hey, there, Andsigil, don't you go a-moping!
Darkness may be on the rise, but light is still a-coping!
If you're drawing parallels between life and this Story,
Don't forget that post-defeat's Eucatastrophic glory!



Okay, so depending on your opinion of Bombadil that may have made things worse, but a girl's gotta try.

In all seriousness I have to reject this statement because it doesn't take into account the general decline of things that's supposed to happen in the transition from the Elder Days to the Middle to these the Youngest--namely, everything is supposed to get lamer. Sauron isn't nearly as awesome as Morgoth was, and the army that challenges him at the Black Gates isn't anything like what faced him at Dagorlad, which in turn is dwarfed by the Union of Maedhros and the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Yes, Sauron may still be floating around as a disempowered spirit, but he can't be everywhere at once, and the little power that Tolkien attributes him when asked about this sort of thing isn't nearly enough to account for all the evil in the world. By the Third Age, even, evil is not as monolithic as it once was (if it ever was monolithic in Tolkien: cf. the ambiguity surrounding Ungoliant)--Saruman is not so much corrupted by Sauron as by his own ambition (if you think he was, you've been watching too much Jackson), and then we've got the blackened heart of Old Man Willow and the petty characters like Ted Sandyman and Lotho Baggins. If you want to point to Morgoth as the source of all of this, since he essentially sang evil into the world, I'll buy that--but not Sauron.

Fast forward to today, where evil is not hooded, cloaked, and riding on black horses, but micromanaged at the bureaucrat's desk or carelessly pursued by the young rake or unwittingly accepted by the decent gal who just doesn't have the time to help out right now. The difference between the Elder Days and the Younger is that our struggles are not as epic--but they're still important, possibly more so because we never know whence the next attack will come. The important thing is that if we acknowledge this kind of struggle as going on today, we have to acknowledge also the pure Joy that emanates from Tolkien--even in the bleakest moments of the Silmarillion we get the beauty of Beren and Luthien and the hope of Earendil's rising--made still more wondrous by the contrast of all the darkness that surrounds them--and find the ways that they, too, resonate in our world.

They cannot conquer for ever!

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

Hey, there, Andsigil, don't you go a-moping!
Darkness may be on the rise, but light is still a-coping!
If you're drawing parallels between life and this Story,
Don't forget that post-defeat's Eucatastrophic glory!

Quite funny and genre appropriate.

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

...Sauron isn't nearly as awesome as Morgoth was, and the army that challenges him at the Black Gates isn't anything like what faced him at Dagorlad, which in turn is dwarfed by the Union of Maedhros and the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.

You're right about Sauron's army. I don't even believe the force he put up at the Morannon would make much of a dent against Ar-Pharazon's Numenorean army -- you know, the Numenoreans that made Sauron's legions run away like frightened rabbits.

In any case, the thing everyone seems to be missing is that the Valar would not or could not have sent an army if Sauron was victorious at the end of the 3rd Age. After Eru destroyed Numenor and caused the reshaping of the world, there was an obvious prohibition on the Valar offering such overt assistance to Middle-earth; which is why the Istari were sent to aid the Free Peoples rather than Eonwe and a heavenly host.

It seems to me that there would be no further divine armies descending upon the world until Tolkien's version of Ragnarök.

P.S. It seems I can't add to your reputation, Mnemo, as I am required to spread the love around. I really despise the way reputation works. What if there are only a few intelligent posters and everyone else sucks? Not that that is the case here, of course. ;p

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

In any case, the thing everyone seems to be missing is that the Valar would not or could not have sent an army if Sauron was victorious at the end of the 3rd Age. After Eru destroyed Numenor and caused the reshaping of the world, there was an obvious prohibition on the Valar offering such overt assistance to Middle-earth; which is why the Istari were sent to aid the Free Peoples rather than Eonwe and a heavenly host.

In keeping with the idea that Sauron's Third Age power was a significant step down from that which he possessed in the days of the Last Alliance, the Valar probably perceived there would be no need for another deus ex machina in the form of an army from the West to put Sauron down for the count.
During the Second Age, the Eldar and Dúnedain had been able to defeat Sauron on their own, without any 'divine' assistance. Though the power of the Elves especially had far diminished from that time, the West still had the ability (obviously) to resist Sauron for a while, at least until the Istari could come up with a plan that did not involve using brute force to destroy Sauron. And, I think, that's in line with the idea that maybe the Valar did not wish for any Middle-earth entity to be powerful enough to take down Sauron on their own. After all, the possession of such power could easily lead to ideals of conquest of Middle-earth, such as the Númenóreans fell prey to attempting.

[Mnemosyne]

It's also interesting to note here that the Cataclysm that ended the Second Age wasn't due to a threat by Sauron himself, per se, but by the Men of Numenor!

[Selmo]

Originally Posted by Joseph

I have a question to ask would anyone be able to answer it?
My question is if Frodo had not been able to destroy the ring and sauron had got it back he would have been able to destroy Gondor and taken over middle earth but then what?
Could he have been destroyed another way by say Gandalf or is it possible that the Valar would come back and cast him into the void as they did with Melkor
Also what would have happened if Melkor had been good and Manwe evil. Would it have been the same as in the silmarillion or much much worse?
any ideas?
Thanks
Joseph

If Sauron had won, the Valar would not have intervened for the reasons already given and as Elrond made clear at the conference at Rivendell. Sauron's power could be ended only by the people of Middle-earth. Sauron's victory would plunge Middle-earth into a nightmare era of destruction, oppression, slavery and hopelessness.

I like to think of Gandalf or his successor wandering around the slave camps of Middle Earth, keeping the old stories alive, spreading hope and the knowledge that a free world had once existed until, after many generations of men, Sauron felt secure enough to let his guard slip enough for someone to get at The Ring and destroy it.

Dictatorships never last for ever. The German Third Rich was brough down by external force and the Soivet empire ended because of internal economic collapse.
Sauron's reign would eventually fail.
Day will come again!
.

[deagol]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

Hey, there, Andsigil, don't you go a-moping!
Darkness may be on the rise, but light is still a-coping!
If you're drawing parallels between life and this Story,
Don't forget that post-defeat's Eucatastrophic glory!



Okay, so depending on your opinion of Bombadil that may have made things worse, but a girl's gotta try.

In all seriousness I have to reject this statement because it doesn't take into account the general decline of things that's supposed to happen in the transition from the Elder Days to the Middle to these the Youngest--namely, everything is supposed to get lamer. Sauron isn't nearly as awesome as Morgoth was, and the army that challenges him at the Black Gates isn't anything like what faced him at Dagorlad, which in turn is dwarfed by the Union of Maedhros and the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Yes, Sauron may still be floating around as a disempowered spirit, but he can't be everywhere at once, and the little power that Tolkien attributes him when asked about this sort of thing isn't nearly enough to account for all the evil in the world. By the Third Age, even, evil is not as monolithic as it once was (if it ever was monolithic in Tolkien: cf. the ambiguity surrounding Ungoliant)--Saruman is not so much corrupted by Sauron as by his own ambition (if you think he was, you've been watching too much Jackson), and then we've got the blackened heart of Old Man Willow and the petty characters like Ted Sandyman and Lotho Baggins. If you want to point to Morgoth as the source of all of this, since he essentially sang evil into the world, I'll buy that--but not Sauron.

Fast forward to today, where evil is not hooded, cloaked, and riding on black horses, but micromanaged at the bureaucrat's desk or carelessly pursued by the young rake or unwittingly accepted by the decent gal who just doesn't have the time to help out right now. The difference between the Elder Days and the Younger is that our struggles are not as epic--but they're still important, possibly more so because we never know whence the next attack will come. The important thing is that if we acknowledge this kind of struggle as going on today, we have to acknowledge also the pure Joy that emanates from Tolkien--even in the bleakest moments of the Silmarillion we get the beauty of Beren and Luthien and the hope of Earendil's rising--made still more wondrous by the contrast of all the darkness that surrounds them--and find the ways that they, too, resonate in our world.

They cannot conquer for ever!

After reading this I couldn't help but wonder if the unmaking of the Ring didn't, in fact, destroy the evil that had gone into its making but merely dispersed it into wider-ranging but less powerful (or epic) strains. Even as Sauron is rendered powerless, still, he is not got rid of. Even in fantasy, it is not possible to eradicate evil, it seems. It's totally unrelated, but I got a very clear image of the denoument in Terry Gilliam's Time Bandits reading this: where concentrated evil is blasted into into tiny bits and the Supreme Being's diminutive henchmen miss a piece when they're sweeping up. Over and over again, the message seems to be that no amount of good is sufficient to trump all the evil in the world.

More's the pity.