The Names of Sauron

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

This is one question I have been thinking about several times in the past. We are told that Sauron did not use the name "Sauron" for himself, for obvious reasons, however still it seems that the name was far more spread than any other names he might have made for himself - and that is, not only among his enemies (where it makes sense), but also among his own soldiers and followers. Let us make a quick recapitulation:

Originally Posted by TT, The Departure of Boromir

"S is for Sauron," said Gimli. "That is easy to read."
"Nay!" said Legolas. "Sauron does not use the Elf-runes."
"Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken," said Aragorn.

Okay, so reputedly Sauron does not use his "right" name - that's one interesting point, since, is really "Sauron" his "right" name? More about that later. Secondly, let us note that Sauron does not even "permit it to be spelt or spoken". That is probably the most interesting contradiction.

Sauron is being referred to by his enemies as Sauron, or "the Enemy", or, more scarcely, "the Dark Lord". Of course Sauron's servants are not calling him "Enemy". The most "affectionate" term for Sauron is probably "the Great Eye", such as in:

Originally Posted by TT, The Uruk-Hai

"Is Saruman the master or the Great Eye?" said the evil voice. "We should go back at once to Lugbúrz."

Sauron is also being often referred to as "Him" by the Orcs. I think whereas "Great Eye" implies a show of honest admiration and respect in front of the authority (as in "O Great Caesar"), "Him" is just a colloquial form used while referring to Sauron in short, yet respectful enough tone, perhaps out of slightly metaphysical fear (like "we cannot call him anything else, because he would surely know and we'll have the Nazgul on our back in no time" - something similar to, say, using "You-Know-Who" instead of Voldemort in Harry Potter). This is exactly the case of for example Gorbag and Shagrat:

Originally Posted by TT, The Choices of Master Samwise

"But don't forget: the enemies don't love us any more than they love Him, and if they get topsides on Him, we're done too."

I could note that "Him" is a quite good neutral term (obviously, because of its simplicity), used also by Gollum and even Sauron's enemies sometimes.

So this far, it would all be very nice. For the Free Peoples, Sauron is mostly "Enemy" or "Sauron" for those, who have the Harry Potter syndrome and are not afraid to speak his name aloud, even though, as we heard from Aragorn, he really does not approve of that. Sauron's servants, on the contrary, call him "Great Eye" or simply "Him". But what to make of...

Originally Posted by ROTK, The Black Gate Opens

The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: "I am the Mouth of Sauron."

This guy had been the closest to Sauron - yet he dared to use the name of his master, the name his master had forbidden to use, as part of his own name?? And there actually are two problems with his usage of the name Sauron, not just one, both could be explained, but that only raises other "but"s.

First question: all right, let us say, if this guy was really Sauron's right-hand man, perhaps he was such a favourite that Sauron did not mind that this guy would use his right name. This would, however, make sense let's say (to stick with the example I have already been using) in the case of Voldemort. But Sauron does not call even himself "Sauron", so why should he allow anybody to call him that? Aside from that, the etymology of the name Sauron (I assume everybody knows, but this is essential of course for this whole post):

Originally Posted by Valaquenta

Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel.

Originally Posted by Silmarillion, Index of Names

Sauron - "The Abhorred" (in Sindarin called Gorthaur); greatest of the servants of Melkor, in his origin a Maia of Aulë.

Originally Posted by Silmarillion, Appendix: Elements in Quenya and Sindarin Names

thaur - "abominable, abhorrent" in Sauron (from Thauron)

I think it is clear why nobody would want to use such a name for himself. By the way, that's another interesting aspect - Sauron called himself "Annatar" when dealing with the Elven smiths, to appear "nice"; apparently after that he ceased to care to make names for himself, just as long as he was not being called "Sauron" (but, see our problem with his Mouth). It would be also interesting to know what was Sauron's name "in the beginning" (as Aulë's Maia), but that we might possibly never learn...

Anyway, back to the original topic - definitely calling oneself "Mouth of Sauron" does not make sense. Well, I think we could still attempt to save it by saying that it was a "diplomatic title" - although that is the second problem, I really don't think the solution is perfectly "clean" either.

What I mean is, "and he said: 'I am the Mouth of Sauron'" could mean that the Mouth of Sauron used it only on the outside, i.e. while presenting himself (and his master) to the "outworlders". He was a diplomat, after all, and he was definitely using his master's "right" name in the negotiations:

Originally Posted by ROTK, The Black Gate Opens

"But this time thou hast stuck out thy nose too far, Master Gandalf; and thou shalt see what comes to him who sets his foolish webs before the feet of Sauron the Great."

It is necessary to note here that this is the first time in the whole dialogue when the name "Sauron" is said. Even the daring call of Gondor's herolds appeals on "the Lord of the Black Land" to come and surrender, so very "politically correct" approach, so to say (not like "you disgusting Sauron, crawl out of your hideout"). Speaking of that, "Sauron the Great" does not seem to be a title of respect, or if it was, I would be seriously worried - because the very same term is used by Gandalf the first time when we even hear Sauron's name:

Originally Posted by FOTR, The Shadow of the Past

"But last night I told you of Sauron the Great, the Dark Lord."

I guess "Great" here just refers to the fact that Sauron is the lord of half of the Middle-Earth, stating the fact, not saying whether it's positive or negative. I think it might be also possibly a translation of the Elvish term for Sauron, where "sauron" after all does not need to be a personal name (although most people probably know who they are talking about), but "the Great" is just used to signify that we are speaking about THE Sauron, and not just "my abhorrent neighbor, you know how I despise him".

Nevertheless, calling Sauron "Sauron" in diplomatic talks is slightly, well, inappropriate? Don't you think so too? If Gandalf was the one to use it, it would make sense, and then the Mouth of Sauron could shout "Hey, watch your mouth [sic], you grey Beard [sic ]". But if it is the Mouth of Sauron who calls Sauron Sauron, then it basically means "retreating" to the level of his opponents. Wouldn't that be a diplomatic faux-pas, showing weakness by speaking in the terms dictated by the opponents, but not himself?

It is true that in diplomatic talk with random Easterling or Southron barbaric tribes, who have heard of Sauron only as Sauron, it might be just easy to use the name for the sake of clarity. (An emissary coming with an offer such as: "Hello, I am emissary of... well, you know... and I would like that you join... well, you know... he is really strong, surely you have heard of him..." wouldn't probably rally many nations to his cause.) The policy might be as well: "Join Sauron the Great!" and only later: "Okay, so if you agree, let us sign this pact which consists of three points, 1. you will have our military aid, 2. we will have your military aid, 3. we will give your chieftain a cool ring, 4. you will not use the name 'Sauron' from now on." The usage of "Sauron the Great" in diplomatic talks is supported at least by Glóin's account of the emissary coming to Erebor:

Originally Posted by FOTR, Council of Elrond

"Then about a year ago a messenger came to Dáin, but not from Moria – from Mordor: a horseman in the night, who called Dáin to his gate. The Lord Sauron the Great, so he said, wished for our friendship."

I am not sure if this explanation is perfectly "clean" either. But I wonder if there are any better explanations possible.

This raises an interesting question, however. Even if the word "Sauron" was used only in the contact with the "outsiders", what was the Mouth called in the Barad-Dur hierarchy? "The Mouth of the Eye" sounds definitely poetic, but slightly confusing. "His Mouth" sounds almost comical, if there wasn't for this fear of punishment, I could imagine the Orcs secretly calling him "His Mouthness". Perhaps, as I have once seen in Middle-Earth playing cards, calling him "The Mouth" would be a good choice (and it would fit, something like "The Eye". The only thing that remains is to call the sniffing Khamul "The Nose" and we have almost complete face).

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

It would be also interesting to know what was Sauron's name "in the beginning" (as Aulë's Maia), but that we might possibly never learn...

Actually, we do know: according to a paper by Tolkien from the 1950s/60s,

Sauron’s original name was Mairon, but this was altered after he was suborned by Melkor. But he continued to call himself Mairon the Admirable, or Tar-mairon ‘King Excellent’, until after the downfall of Númenor.*

(quoted by Helge Fauskanger in this article on Ardalambion, which also discusses the changing etymologies for the name Sauron, none of them very flattering).
Then, of course, we have the name Annatar, "Lord of Gifts" (or, according to a later source, Aulendil) which Sauron used as an alias in his dealings with the Gwaith-i-Mirdain (and possibly the Númenoreans as well?).
All this makes the use of Sauron's 'right name' by his subordinates all the more puzzling. The need for clarity in diplomatic negotiations sounds like a good explanation to me, but I'd like to hear some other opinions.

*Afterthought: After the fall of Númenor, Sauron

was unable ever again to assume a form that seemed fair to men, but became black and hideous, and his power thereafter was through terror alone.

(LotR Appendix A) - so maybe even He himself decided he couldn't get away with using his former name anymore.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Actually, we do know: according to a paper by Tolkien from the 1950s/60s

Wonderful!!! That's exactly what I hoped might happen. Thanks! Well, if nothing else, this is good fruit of this thread. Nevertheless, that's really a minor by-the-way thing, and the major purpose is indeed solving this whole puzzle...

The need for clarity in diplomatic negotiations sounds like a good explanation to me, but I'd like to hear some other opinions.

Exactly, so that's what I'm hoping for and would like to hear here

so maybe even He himself decided he couldn't get away with using his former name anymore.

Yes, that's what I actually already had on my mind.

[Inziladun]

Nice thread, Legate. This is something I've wondered about from time to time.

As you note, Sauron was his name among all those in the West of Middle-earth. He would have had different names in the tongues of the Easterlings and Haradrim, and probably also in the Black Speech, but Sauron he was to all his enemies in the Third Age.
In the Elder Days, all the Valar and Maia known to the Elves of Valinor were given names. Sauron would have been a result of his association with Morgoth.

Of old there was Sauron the Maia, whom the Sindar of Beleriand named Gorthaur. In the beginning of Arda, Melkor seduced him to his allegiance.

Silmarillion Of the Rings of Power of the Third Age

So he'd had the moniker Sauron almost from the first. If he had been given any other name by the Eldar before that, it would only have been used a relatively brief time, before his service to Melkor became known. His 'original' name would possibly have made a reference to Sauron's beauty, or perhaps his service to Aulë (and I'm admittedly just guessing here). But would a name making reference to his being good have been appealing to him in the Third Age, when he was well aware he could no longer fool the West by appearing to be beautiful and good? On the contrary: he reveled in evil, relished the thought of crushing the West. Therefore, I think being called the abhorred was something that could have given him some perverse pleasure.
As to the Mouth's name in Sauron's forces, I think it might actually have been 'Mouth', or 'the Speaker', or something like that. After all, his original identity had been swallowed up, so what else would they have called him?

[Dakêsîntrah]

Names of Sauron:

~ Annatar (Quenya "Lord of Gifts" -Sil, -UT) Name given to himself Second Age

~ Artano ("High Smith" -UT) Name given to himself Second Age -UT

~ Aulendil ("Servant of Aule" -UT) Name given to himself Second Age -UT

~ Dark Power (-LotR)

~ Enemy (-LotR)

~ Gorthaur the Cruel (Sindarin gor "horror, dread", thaur "abominable, abhorrent" -Sil)

~ Lord of the Rings (-LotR)

~ Necromancer (-LotR, -BoLT2)

~ Sauron (Quenya for "abominable"; "the abhorred"-Sil)

~ Sorceror of Dol Guldur

~ Tevildo Prince of Cats (early cat form that fought Huan -BoLT1)

~ Thauron (early Quenya)

~ Thu the Hunter (early Sindarin)

~ Thu the Necromancer (-BoLT2)

~ Tiberth (Noldorin/Gnomish name for Tevildo, replacing Tifil -BoLT2)

~ Tifil (BoLT2)

References: LotR, Sil, UT, BoLT 1 & 2



http://www.valarguild.org/varda/Tolk...auronNames.htm

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think being called the abhorred was something that could have given him some perverse pleasure.

Well, that would be a good explanation for me too, had it not been for this note that Sauron does not allow anybody to use his name (the name "Sauron" itself, as logically follows Gimli's words and the meaning of the quoted paraghraph) - so it seems that he actually wasn't so happy about it. And Sauron really seems to have liked the "magnificant" titles rather than those that would make him seem downright horrible. For that matter, it is far more likely that the Mouth had some perverse pleasure in using the name "Sauron" as part of his name, he seems like a pretty perverted man in general.

As to the Mouth's name in Sauron's forces, I think it might actually have been 'Mouth', or 'the Speaker', or something like that. After all, his original identity had been swallowed up, so what else would they have called him?

Yes, agreed - I guess that's the point, there were no other names to call him by, and if he himself reputedly called himself as "the Mouth" (of Sauron??? Even inside Mordor???), why should the Mordorians even stop to think of a new name.

And Dakêsîntrah, thanks for posting the list too - good to have it here (although of course it does not say anything to the question as it is, that is, how was the name "Sauron" used and why especially in relation to people such as the Mouth).

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, that would be a good explanation for me too, had it not been for this note that Sauron does not allow anybody to use his name (the name "Sauron" itself, as logically follows Gimli's words and the meaning of the quoted paraghraph) - so it seems that he actually wasn't so happy about it.

Well, is it possible Aragorn was simply wrong about Sauron not allowing that name to be spoken? As has been noted, in addition to the Mouth, the emissary sent to Erebor used Sauron too. Could Aragorn's statement have been based upon outdated information, maybe from the Second Age, which was the last time the Elves and Dúnedain had been involved in close contact with Sauron's forces? Perhaps by the Third Age, Sauron was at the point he didn't care anymore what the West called him, as long as his servants still feared and obeyed him.

EDIT- had this thought also.

Sauron was known only by that name to the West.

2951- Sauron declares himself openly and gathers power in Mordor.

The Tale of Years

How would he have 'declared himself'? 'It is I, the one who you thought you beat in the Second Age. You took my Ring, but I'm back anyway. I will break you!' (couldn't resist the Rocky IV reference )
No. He would have named himself, by the moniker the west knew. 'I am Sauron. I will destroy you'.

I do think it likely he didn't want his own servants to use that name under normal circumstances. He was not only their ruler, but aspired to be their god as well. The generic names used by the Orcs, Him, the Top, etc., would have been adequate for them, and would have helped keep Sauron as a totem in their eyes, a figure they would only need to see as their Master.
But when dealing directly with those in the West, Sauron would suffice. Again, why not? The abhorred wasn't really all that demeaning, and it still seems likely Sauron would be amused by it, and probably proud of it.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Inzil, I would agree with some of the things you say about Sauron's relation to the Orcs etc., but then, Aragorn was a person who has been traveling a lot, even more than Gandalf, to "Rhun and Harad (!)". I think if anybody knew by what names Sauron was called all over the world and in different cultures, it was him. Also, the idea that Sauron "does not permit his name to be spelt or spoken" must have had a good reason behind it - I mean, people must have had a good reason to believe it. Probably some proofs. And actually it seems far more likely that the experiences with the usage of Sauron's name for the Free Peoples would come from Sauron's emissaries rather than from the actual denizens of Mordor - after all, if there was any contact with Mordorians, it was more likely in the form of encountering emissaries (or in the form of combat, of course). And so, one can imagine that if encounters of this kind led people to believe that Sauron does not allow his servants to use his name, well, then it certainly must have been true. (Another way to learn this - and a reason to learn this - would have been when sending spies among Sauron's men to gather information for the West, and for such a spy not to give himself away it was essential to know that he should not use Sauron's name, as otherwise everybody would know that he is not a real servant of Sauron.)

And as for self-declaration, how about using the good, old title "Lord of the Rings"? I can't think of anything more fitting. (as he could not yet use the title "Lord of Middle-Earth")

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Okay, so reputedly Sauron does not use his "right" name - that's one interesting point, since, is really "Sauron" his "right" name? More about that later. Secondly, let us note that Sauron does not even "permit it to be spelt or spoken". That is probably the most interesting contradiction.

I started writing this a few hours ago, then got interrupted, so some of this is going to overlap a little with what has now been posted by Inziladun!

The easiest explanation is that Aragorn is wrong. He is the only character who makes this claim about Sauron's name. Certainly Gimli assumed that Sauron permitted the use of his name, so it definitely isn't exactly "common knowledge" that the use of Sauron's name is forbidden.

Note that the messenger of Sauron who visits Dain also refers to his master as "Sauron".

Three things occur to me:

1. Perhaps the use of "Sauron" was only forbidden when he was residing in Dol Guldur. His true identity was not known at that time, although it was suspected by the White Council. Instead he was referred to as the Necromancer. Aragorn was alive at this time (although much younger) so perhaps he thinks (erroneously) that Sauron still forbids the use of the name. Sauron required secrecy when he was based in Dol Guldur - after he returned to Mordor there was no longer a requirement for secrecy.

2. When communicating with people of the West it certainly makes sense for Sauron's emissaries to use the name by which he is commonly known in the West.

3. Many people in the West are reluctant to actually speak Sauron's name out loud, so for a feared servant of Sauron to use the dreaded name could well just be a psychological ploy.

As for Sauron's feelings about the meaning of the name, "The Abhorred", why would he be concerned? Surely he relishes the fact that he is regarded the most hated and feared individual in Middle Earth!

Another possibility is that Aragorn was partially correct. Perhaps regular Orcs are forbidden from mentioning the name of their Master. Certainly none of them do. However, the prohibition may not extend to Sauron's most trusted servants - some of whom are Men. If there is some special exception to the Rule then surely this would not be well-known, even to someone like Aragorn. I'm sure Aragorn isn't familiar with every Rule and By-law of Barad-dur!

Alternatively, Tolkien may have simply made a mistake. Aragorn's remark may be a leftover from an earlier draft that was left in due to an oversight. In fact, looking at what appears to be the original draft in HOME VII, The Treason of Isengard I see this:

'S is for Sauron,' said Gimli. 'That is easy to read.'

'Nay,' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Runes.'

'Neither does he use his right name or permit it to be spelt or
spoken,' said Trotter. 'And he does not use white. The orcs of
his immediate service bear the sign of the single eye.' He stood
for a moment in thought. 'S is for Saruman, I guess,' he said at
last. (from XIX The Departure of Boromir)

So that is almost identical to the final version. Presumably the idea of the Mouth of Sauron came much later in the writing process. Still, I wonder about the earlier emissary of Sauron who went to Erebor? What did he say in the earlier drafts (if he was there at all)? Back to HOME again...

[Sarumian]

I agree with the view that Sauron could feel some sort of satisfaction knowing about his enemies' fear and hatred. Having said that, his emissars were, probably, allowed to use this name when it was conveniet. In this respect he could also compare himself to his predecessor, Melkor, who had been known to his enemies as Morgoth.

Why The Mouth used it? I think, he wanted to make an impression, he could read in his counterparts' minds and that he was aware of what they thought. He also wanted to show such a level of confidence, at which this name doesn't make any harm neither to his mission, nor to his Master. Can this be another reason?


I also suppose that in line with 'The Great Eye' and 'Him', Sauron's servants could use the title 'The Dark Lord', as it had been written on The Ring, for it was respectful and precise at the same time. Wasn't it typical to use the tytle of a monarch instead of his/her name in autocratic states (e. g. the king, the queen, the emperor said or did something, not Henry, or Catherine etc.)?

[Pitchwife]

I think Zil has some good points. I can quite well imagine Sauron adopting the name he was given out of defiance in his dealings with the West - à la, "They call me The Abhorred? Let them; I'll teach them horror!" (Although this doesn't go quite so well with those other etymologies where Sauron means "foul stench" or something of the like.) And it's also likely that the policy about the use of that name was different in foreign relations and for his own forces.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I do think it likely he didn't want his own servants to use that name under normal circumstances. He was not only their ruler, but aspired to be their god as well.

Very true, and this in a somewhat perverse way reminds me of the Jewish taboo against using the proper name of God (YHWH). It's not unlikely that Sauron's followers (at least the lower ranks) were under a 'religious' prohibition to utter his name, so that they had to refer to him as The Great Eye, Him, etc. instead, much like the forbidden name YHWH was paraphrased with other names (Elohim, Adonai, Shaddai, The Holy One, The Most High etc.).
As for the use of Sauron by high-ranking servants of the Dark Lord, such as The Mouth or the emissary to Erebor, that's a difficult question. What exactly were their feelings for the master they served? Fear, of course - but aside from that? Did they still believe the propaganda and consider him admirable, or did they know exactly their lord was the Worst Abomination in Middle-earth but just couldn't help going on serving him? I'd think a sort of love-hate relationship (maybe with a good dose of self-loathing in the mixture) most likely; and in this case, it might indeed have given The Mouth a perverse pleasure to call his master by his right name (using diplomatic license as an excuse), although he probably wouldn't have dared to use it within the walls of Barad-dûr.
If only there wasn't that quite apodictic statement by Aragorn, which seems to contradict all that. Obsolete information on Aragorn's part is one possibility, and simple inconsistency on Tolkien's another (though this would be much too easy); But maybe there's a third. From the article I linked to above:

Originally Posted by Helge Fauskanger

In the Adûnaic (Númenorean) tongue, he was apparently known as Zigûr, the Wizard (SD:247, 250, cf. 437).
One Quenya word for “wizard” is sairon (LR:385), and I have actually seen a suggestion to the effect that Sairon was the actual name of this Maia, which his enemies punningly altered to Sauron when he joined Morgoth.

So maybe The Mouth and the other emissary actually used Sairon, and Frodo's witnesses (remember he, the presumed author of the Red Book, wasn't present at either of the occasions) misheard it as Sauron, the name they were familiar with? They could easily have taken the slight difference for dialectal pronunciation...

(One last thought: one of the meanings given for the adjective maira, from which Mairon is derived, is "precious". So at least the part of Sauron he put into the Ring still had the pleasure of being called by its proper name...)

EDIT: This took me forever to write, so I x-ed with PotH and Sarumian.)

[Inziladun]

Very insightful replies, I think.

Assuming Aragorn was right, I'm pretty much of the mind that there were two standards Sauron had regarding his name: one for his servants among themselves, and one for dealings with the West.
Aragorn, in that statement, is speaking of Orcs specifically, that they were not allowed to say or write Sauron. And I think that was likely true. Higher level servants, such as the Mouth, and the embassy to the King Under the Mountain, would have been given special permission to use the name that the West would know The Dark Lord by best.
I don't agree with the idea that the Mouth would say Sauron as a private joke. The parley at the Morannon was being closely observed by Sauron! As far as the Mouth knew, the enemy forces would quickly be crushed, and he would go on to his new abode in Orthanc as his reward. Would he have said something expressly forbidden by Sauron, with that knowledge?

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

So maybe The Mouth and the other emissary actually used Sairon, and Frodo's witnesses (remember he, the presumed author of the Red Book, wasn't present at either of the occasions) misheard it as Sauron, the name they were familiar with? They could easily have taken the slight difference for dialectal pronunciation...

I was just going to suggest something with translation. The PoV character for this chapter was Pippin, who had no reason to think that Sauron had any other name. Probably Gandalf and/or Aragorn, who were much more learned, would have been able to tell the linguistic difference--and possibly Frodo himself, if his skill at pronunciation extended to being able to tease apart other people's vowels--but Pippin at least would have reported it as "Sauron."

Granted, the section where this happens is told pretty objectively (I don't think we get anyone's thoughts), so maybe I just undermined this whole argument.

And I get the feeling that we're just back-justifying genuine plotholes using the Translator's Conceit yet again... (We run into a similar problem with the fact that "Moria" which wasn't called "Moria" until post-Balrog still has "Moria" engraved on its doors.)

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I don't agree with the idea that the Mouth would say Sauron as a private joke. The parley at the Morannon was being closely observed by Sauron!

Was it indeed? Unlike what Peter Jackson wants us to think, the Morannon was about 100 miles from Barad-dûr. Sauron could, of course, have observed the parley in his palantír (and he very likely would have), but as far as I remember, the Stones don't transmit sound, and The Mouth was probably facing away from him, so no lip-reading.
On the other hand, I concede that The Mouth would have had to reckon with the possibility that some of his escort, who were within earshot, would inform The Eye on his improper language.

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

And I get the feeling that we're just back-justifying genuine plotholes using the Translator's Conceit yet again... (We run into a similar problem with the fact that "Moria" which wasn't called "Moria" until post-Balrog still has "Moria" engraved on its doors.)

Yes of course, but isn't it fun?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Was it indeed? Unlike what Peter Jackson wants us to think, the Morannon was about 100 miles from Barad-dûr. Sauron could, of course, have observed the parley in his palantír (and he very likely would have), but as far as I remember, the Stones don't transmit sound, and The Mouth was probably facing away from him, so no lip-reading.

Well, there was also the Eye, which I don't know if it transmitted sound or not. If not though, as you say the Mouth's entourage were witnesses, and would have been happy to inform their Master of the Mouth's impropriety.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, there was also the Eye, which I don't know if it transmitted sound or not. If not though, as you say the Mouth's entourage were witnesses, and would have been happy to inform their Master of the Mouth's impropriety.

Last line of defense:
Eye? What Eye? I take it you don't mean PJ's olympic fire, so apart from the palantír and Sauron's searching spirit/will, was there ever any unmetaphorical Eye scrying from Barad-dûr? (Yeah, I've read that thread...)
But as you say I said above, the point is mute, so you're probably right.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Was it indeed? Unlike what Peter Jackson wants us to think, the Morannon was about 100 miles from Barad-dûr. Sauron could, of course, have observed the parley in his palantír (and he very likely would have), but as far as I remember, the Stones don't transmit sound, and The Mouth was probably facing away from him, so no lip-reading.

Well, the main point is, I think, that the Mouth would just not dare to speak of Sauron like that in any case, unless he was really full of himself (which he probably was, but then, he was also intelligent enough not to get himself killed. Also, from the text we get the impression that he most likely spent half of his life by flattering Sauron - just take into account that he had really high status, if Sauron won, the Mouth would basically be close to being the second most powerful being in Middle-Earth - if we dismiss the Nazgul on the basis that they were basically still slaves, without entirely free will). In any case, he makes the impression of a total Sauron freak - just listen to him. If anybody is totally out of his mind and worships Sauron beyond anything, it's him. Total lunatic. He would never make jokes about his master. Apart from that, he seems to be a terrible showoff. Showing off his utter loyalty, that is. I mean, forgetting your own name and calling yourself "Mouth of Sauron" instead is enough of a proof.

By the way, good observation about the likely "religious taboo" status of Sauron's name among his own people. I have been thinking along the same lines. "Thou shalt not use the name of thy Lord" is most likely second or third commandment for the Mordorites as well.

Yes of course, but isn't it fun?

It indeed is, and that's why I am not going to get people away with cheap comments like "Aragorn was misinformed" Because I really think they are "easy way to solve the problem", and, let's face it, they are unlikely. If anybody knew anything about Sauron or whatever related, all this "high knowledge", it would be the Wise, a few other people like Denethor and then Aragorn. He is more likely to get things right (particularly in this area) than 99,9% of other inhabitants of Middle-Earth (that is, of the Western people).

The misinterpretation on the part of writers is at least a bit more sound argument - I could go with that one. Still, aren't there any other ideas? I am sure we are easily running out of possibilities, but I am just trying to get the best out of people

(And for that matter, even though I sound like dismissing them, I highly appreciate all the comments here this far - that's what I have been looking for, after all!)

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

For myself, I have always assumed that everything said about Sauron in LotR is filtered through Hobbits, because they were the ones who wrote the book (according to Tolkien's authorial conceit). Gandalf, for instance, is most often called Gandalf, even though his name among the Elves is Mithrandir (none of whom call him that until Lothlorien, if I recall correctly), Tharkun among the Dwarves (who never call him that), etc. Gandalf is the name the Hobbits knew best for him, and thus is the name that shows up most in the book they wrote that was the chronicle of the War.

Why Sauron would not let any of his servants speak or write his proper name seems rather peculiar, until one considers the power Tolkien ascribes to words in his mythos. There are many beliefs in the so-called real world that ascribe tremendous power and control to knowing another person's true name. Again, if I'm remembering correctly (I have no books at hand, so I'm winging it), the King of the Nazgul learned "black arts" from Sauron, and in sorcery, the knowledge of Sauron's true name, its utterance or its inscription, could permit a kind of magic to be used against him. He would not want anyone, especially his servants and slaves, to have even a chance of interfering with his power by such a means, even if it failed. So, the possibility that The Mouth actually used "Sauron," even though He Himself hated it, would have been preferable to using His true name. It is a small price to pay, allowing this servant to use the name His enemies know best when dealing with them as His ambassador.

Just some things I've thought for a while.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

There are many beliefs in the so-called real world that ascribe tremendous power and control to knowing another person's true name. Again, if I'm remembering correctly (I have no books at hand, so I'm winging it), the King of the Nazgul learned "black arts" from Sauron, and in sorcery, the knowledge of Sauron's true name, its utterance or its inscription, could permit a kind of magic to be used against him. He would not want anyone, especially his servants and slaves, to have even a chance of interfering with his power by such a means, even if it failed. So, the possibility that The Mouth actually used "Sauron," even though He Himself hated it, would have been preferable to using His true name. It is a small price to pay, allowing this servant to use the name His enemies know best when dealing with them as His ambassador.

Good point - but what exactly was Sauron's 'true name'? The problem with Mairon or Sairon is that both are Quenya names, given by the Elves, and as such secondary. His magical true name, the one that would give somebody power over him, would probably have been Valarin or in some even remoter Language of Creation (known only to Ilúvatar?), so there's little chance that The Mouth or anybody else in Middle-earth in the Third Age (except maybe the Istari) knew or remembered it.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

If I'm recalling the HoME books correctly, somewhere, Tolkien said that originally, none of the Ainur had names among themselves, because they spoke from mind to mind and thus recognized one another without the need for names as we think of them. That would make perfect sense, since language and speech is a convention of the physical world. While words were the delight of Manwe, I doubt very much that it was a delight he had until he entered Ea; language was the chief characteristic of an incarnate being, and until they themselves incarnated within the physical world, the Valar would have had no need for it. The Valar made their own language before the awakening of the Elves in anticipation their coming -- and even then, the Elves didn't care much for the sound of Valarin. Manawenuz became Manwe to the Elves, Ulluboz became Ulmo, Ibrîniðilpathânezel became Telperion, etc. (sorry for the lack of special characters; I still don't know how to do them via the html keyboard ). If they made names for themselves during this period, Sauron's first spoken name would have been in Valarin, but I don't believe it's ever mentioned; not a whole lot of Valarin words are known. Especially if it was a name he chose for himself, this would have been Sauron's "truest" spoken name, I should think, but very few people outside the Ainur might know what it was.

Whether or not any of his servants or slaves actually DID know his true name would not prevent Sauron from issuing orders against it being spoken or written. That he could not imagine anyone wanting to destroy the Ring shows that he had the kind of twisted mind that always believes his enemies are planning to do what he himself would do. He would think it necessary to prevent his name from being used against him because once he had his Ring and his power back, he would certainly use any knowledge of his enemies' true names against them.

Y'know, I think I know WAY too many people with that kind of dysfunctional mindset.... *sigh*

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

It indeed is, and that's why I am not going to get people away with cheap comments like "Aragorn was misinformed" Because I really think they are "easy way to solve the problem", and, let's face it, they are unlikely. If anybody knew anything about Sauron or whatever related, all this "high knowledge", it would be the Wise, a few other people like Denethor and then Aragorn. He is more likely to get things right (particularly in this area) than 99,9% of other inhabitants of Middle-Earth (that is, of the Western people).

Well, as has already been suggested, there is the possibility that Aragorn was right but that the Rule only applied to the "rank and file" of Mordor. Someone like The Mouth of Sauron would have been exempt.

In any case, as Sauron's emissary, The Mouth is literally speaking for Sauron. He is no mere servant or slave. He is Sauron's official representative, spokesman and proxy. Undoubtedly he is under strict instructions from Sauron himself and has been very carefully "coached".

Even in all his travels I'm sure Aragorn had never encountered the Mouth of Sauron, so I would simply say that when Aragorn made his statement "Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken," he simply hadn't anticipated a situation where an emissary of Sauron would be discussing terms with the Lords of the West. The only slight problem then is that Aragorn's statement implies that Sauron himself never uses his name - still, just because Sauron hasn't used it in the past doesn't mean he can't start using it now. Aragorn's statement should be interpreted as generally true - but it shouldn't be considered some kind of prophecy, as in "Never ever in the future will Sauron permit the use of his name".

I do have to wonder, what name did Sauron use when dealing with the Easterlings and Southrons?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

I do have to wonder, what name did Sauron use when dealing with the Easterlings and Southrons?

Since Sauron would have been a fixture in the cultures of both peoples for long years, I'd think he would have had a dedicated name in their languages. Maybe something meaning 'dark god', or 'black king'.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Ibrin

Whether or not any of his servants or slaves actually DID know his true name would not prevent Sauron from issuing orders against it being spoken or written.

Edict From The Top #456176
"We, the Lord of the Rings, Lord of Barad-dûr, Núrnen and Gorgoroth, Liege-lord of Dol Guldur, Supreme God-King of Khand, Rhûn, Near and Far Harad and by right of all Middle-earth, known to Our subordinates as The (Great) Eye, He, The Top, etc., hereby expressly forbid all Our loyal subjects, under severest penalty, to use in speech or writing Our True Name, which we will not reveal here as it's none of their business.
Given at Our chancellery in Barad-dûr, through Our trusted secretary, the Mouth of ******, T.A. 2951."

Orcs, Nazgûl, Trolls, Variags, Easterlings, Haradrim etc.: "???"

(Sorry, couldn't resist...)

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Edict From The Top #456176
"We, the Lord of the Rings, Lord of Barad-dûr, Núrnen and Gorgoroth, Liege-lord of Dol Guldur, Supreme God-King of Khand, Rhûn, Near and Far Harad and by right of all Middle-earth, known to Our subordinates as The (Great) Eye, He, The Top, etc., hereby expressly forbid all Our loyal subjects, under severest penalty, to use in speech or writing Our True Name, which we will not reveal here as it's none of their business.
Given at Our chancellery in Barad-dûr, through Our trusted secretary, the Mouth of ******, T.A. 2951."

Orcs, Nazgûl, Trolls, Variags, Easterlings, Haradrim etc.: "???"

LOL! It's funny -- and to a sick mind, entirely too possible, sad to say. You should hear the stories that my "stepmother" used to tell about her family -- Gospel Truth, according to her. We found that not only wasn't a word of it true, but the enormity of what she and earlier generations of her family had lied about was truly stunning. As Sauron was certainly a Master Manipulator and Base Deceiver far beyond anything she could have imagined, the degree of prevarication of which he was capable must have been so profound, it would have completely befuddled any poor mortal mind. And it surely would have looked insane to boot.

[Aran e-Godhellim]

One possibility, I note, has not been mentioned. What if Pippin misinterpreted what the Mouth [of Sauron] actually said grammatically. We know that Sindarin has a genitive by apposition. What if Westron does as well? In that case, piŋ Soron (just a suggestion, by no means a serious reconstruction) could be translated "Mouth [of] Sauron". However, adjectival formations are also often formed via apposition; piŋ soron could also mean The Abhorred Mouth. This could have been an "honorary title" -- perhaps but not necessarily a linguistic pun, since Sauron didn't use that name anyway -- which Pippin might easily have misunderstood. (Or Tolkien, if we dare suggest that!)

Also, it is possible that the use of Sauron is an anachronism or alteration; a later translator (or Frodo himself) replaced the real name that the Mouth [of Sauron] used with a name that would be more readily understood. In this case, the Mouth [of Sauron] called himself no such thing, and the problem is solved. This latter explanation seems to me to be the most Tolkienesque.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

There have been similar ideas as to misinterpretation, however the first one (with taking into account the linguistic aspect) is truly original! It depends on the circumstances, of course, but anything is possible. Nevertheless, I must say that of course it was not only Pippin, Frodo or whoever who would be misinterpretating the Mouth's name here. Given the way in which the Red Book has been compiled, many of the facts have been probably carefully checked by the scholarly minds of Bilbo and Frodo and a mistake like that would have likely been uncovered. If somebody misinterpretated the name of some totally random hill in the wilderness, nobody will mind, but the Mouth of Sauron seems to be a known and feared figure, at least among the "high-ranking" people, all of Sauron's direct enemies probably knew of his existence (probably just as well as they knew about the existence of the Nazgul). In that sense, his name had about as large chance to be misinterpretated as, let's say, the name of Cirith Gorgor or that of Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul.

If it were to be said that the name "Mouth of Sauron" is a result of misinterpretation, then the variant I could accept - in this paradigm - would be that it was Tolkien who misinterpretated it, resp. as it were, that the Westron got misinterpretated while being translated into English.

[Dimturiel]

Perhaps the Mouth of Sauron used his master's name at the Black Gate to play with his enemies, to sort of daunt them. I mean, if all went his way - and, at that point, I don't think he had too many reasons to believe it would not - he would have taken Saruman's place at Isengard and he had to secure his position to his enemies, to make sure they would really never bother him again. He wanted to prove to Gandalf and the rest that he was not just a slave of Sauron's - although Gandalf does call him one at the end of their discussion, thus showing that the trick did not actually work. It was like he was saying to them: I am that deep in Sauron's favour, that close to him that I can actually afford to use this name, a thing he does not permit the rest of his servants to do. Therefore, I am to be feared almost just as much as Sauron, and you'd better fear me, for your own good. I mean, what better way to make sure no one would dare to openly challange his position in Orthanc than by proving that he was the second most powerful being in Middle-earth apart from Sauron and that Sauron sort of acknowledged that by allowing his ambassador liberties he would not normally have allowed to his other - less trustworthy and less important, it is implied - servants?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Dimturiel

He wanted to prove to Gandalf and the rest that he was not just a slave of Sauron's - although Gandalf does call him one at the end of their discussion, thus showing that the trick did not actually work. It was like he was saying to them: [I]I am that deep in Sauron's favour, that close to him that I can actually afford to use this name, a thing he does not permit the rest of his servants to do.

Not a bad idea, but the trouble is, Mouth of Sauron apparently called himself Mouth of Sauron always. That means, not only in this particular case. And that does not still quite answer the question why would Sauron allow him to call himself like that.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Not a bad idea, but the trouble is, Mouth of Sauron apparently called himself Mouth of Sauron always. That means, not only in this particular case. And that does not still quite answer the question why would Sauron allow him to call himself like that.

I would add, why Sauron allow him to use a name that was given to him by his enemies, and which he did not like? Permitting him to use the name "Sauron" would be catering to his enemies, and saying "this guy is my mouthpiece only for scum like you," I should think. Of course, it would not obviate the premise that Sauron let the Mouth believe it was a sign of his favor. Like any good dysfunctional control freak "parent," Sauron no doubt had a number of servants that he told were "his favorite" or some such, just to keep them at odds with one another so that they couldn't get together, decide they were being treated badly, and start a rebellion. If the Mouth were really in Sauron's favor, he probably would have called himself The Mouth of Annatar (although from a story point of view, that would be introducing a name for Sauron that had not been mentioned in the book, and would need explanation).

An interesting notion, nonetheless.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

what exactly was Sauron's 'true name'? The problem with Mairon or Sairon is that both are Quenya names, given by the Elves, and as such secondary. His magical true name, the one that would give somebody power over him, would probably have been Valarin or in some even remoter Language of Creation (known only to Ilúvatar?), so there's little chance that The Mouth or anybody else in Middle-earth in the Third Age (except maybe the Istari) knew or remembered it.

I think that all the names of the ainur that we know aren't "true" names. Maybe they didn't have names as we see them before the creation of Ea. It's this abstractish thing that's hard to explain, but you can know a person without knowing their name. It's a bit like Entish, I guess - like Treebeard calles orcs a list of well-deserved names, but without actually saying any Name. Maybe Melkor was known as "the greatest after the greatest" (greatest meaning Eru). Many of the names of the ainur represent their role in making Arda, or in their "everyday job". Quite a lot of names have actual meanings, and are given/taken for a reason. However, there's a difference between a Name, and a description. For example, "Gilthoniel - Kindler of Stars" is Varda's job (ie her description), but it became one of her Names (probably because it was used by many Eruhini). A description could be applied to a number of people, but a Name is something unique. You don't need to know the Name in order to recognize a person, if I only know his/her "description". Also, each person has a certain assosiation in my mind, and I suppose in others' too: it's as if you show Treebeard an orc and he thinks right away...whatever he thought of them. As soon as you hear the description, you can link it with the assosiation, and know the person without ever using the Name.
Just to sumarize all my babble: I don't think that the ainur had actual Names before Ea. They probably knew each other by assosiations, and their Names were descriptions attached to them by Eruhini. Considering the fact that they could get a lot closer in thoughts than we can, this theory is very probable. It's not like a chat forum: *Hi Manwe, Yavanna speaking. Aule told me...* Suppose we could communicate with thoughts - I think I'd recogize a person by who he is, not his/her Name. (like talking with concepts, maybe?)

PS: This is my opinion, that's based on my thoughts. I haven't found a counterargument to that in those Tolkien books that I've read - which isn't very much.

PPS: The Ainulindale and Valaquenta in The Sil use the names given to the ainur later on, to save the trouble of speaking Entish with English words

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think that all the names of the ainur that we know aren't "true" names. Maybe they didn't have names as we see them before the creation of Ea. It's this abstractish thing that's hard to explain, but you can know a person without knowing their name.

I fully agree with you. Even Tolkien (in Letter #211) said

The Valar had no language of their own, not needing one, they had no 'true' names, only identities, and their names were conferred on them by the Elves.

So, I'd say you hit the nail right on the proverbial head.

As to the other bit, it's a theme in other literature as well - for example "The Lensman" series (siFi) by EE Smith. In that case the controlling races, The Arisians & Eddoreans (beings with "Minds of Power"), had "symbols", not true names which were mental shorthands for the life essence of each being.

[Galadriel55]

Speakig of other literature, I've recently been forced by the school (!!! ) to read The Chrysalids, and there you have people comunicating with thoughts, and they know who they're talking to, but they don't know anything about the person, and haven't met once in their lives.

[Galin]

Tolkien did change his mind after letter 211 however, with respect to the Valar having a language (they did), and Valarin Arǭmēz for example, was said to be a name adapted to Quenya as Orome, and to Sindarin as Araw.

'The Eldar,' he says, 'now take the name to signify "horn-blowing" or "horn-blower"; but to the Valar it had no such meaning. Now the names that we have for the Valar or the Maiar, whether adapted from the Valarin or translated, are not right names but titles, referring to some function or character of the person; for though the Valar have right names, they do not reveal them.

Save only in the case of Orome. For it is said in the histories of the most ancient days of the Quendi that, when Orome appeared among them, and at length some dared to approach him, they asked him his name, and he answered: Orome. Then they asked him what that signified, and again he answered: Orome. To me only is it given; for I am Orome. Yet the titles that he bore were many and glorious; but he withheld them at that time, that the Quendi should not be afraid.'

JRRT, Quendi And Eldar

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I don't think that the ainur had actual Names before Ea. They probably knew each other by assosiations, and their Names were descriptions attached to them by Eruhini. Considering the fact that they could get a lot closer in thoughts than we can, this theory is very probable. It's not like a chat forum: *Hi Manwe, Yavanna speaking. Aule told me...* Suppose we could communicate with thoughts - I think I'd recogize a person by who he is, not his/her Name. (like talking with concepts, maybe?)

Originally Posted by Galin

Tolkien did change his mind after letter 211 however, with respect to the Valar having a language (they did), and Valarin Arǭmēz for example, was said to be a name adapted to Quenya as Orome, and to Sindarin as Araw.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to say that before Eä, they didn't have any needs of names or language, because they may not even have been physical, or at least in the sense that we are or understand.

It would only be once they entered the physical world of Eä that they would have a need for a language, as that would be when they could start becoming incarnate, and would need to (or more likely, just choose to, since they do literally have the whole of time to try new things) start using a language.

[Galadriel55]

When Aragorn says that the true name of Sauron cannot be written or spoken, what does he mean by true name? Even if he had a true name, Aragorn wouldn't know it!

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

When Aragorn says that the true name of Sauron cannot be written or spoken, what does he mean by true name? Even if he had a true name, Aragorn wouldn't know it!

I think he meant the personal name by which Sauron was known, not just something like "the Dark Lord", or "the Top".
I still favour the idea that the ban on calling him Sauron was only in effect to prevent underlings from having any sense of a personal relationship or understanding of their master. Sauron wanted to be impersonal; godlike. Not being able to name him would have the effect of making him seem even more fearsome and remote to his troops.

[LadyBrooke]

Aragorn is not the only one handing out warnings about speaking of Sauron. In FotR Gandalf tells Pippin to not call Frodo the Lord of the Ring because "Evil things do not come into this valley;but all the same we should not name them." So perhaps saying his name allows him to somehow focus on the person speaking of it. Names are more than superficial in LotR, Aragorn himself didn't know his true name until he was grown.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

Aragorn is not the only one handing out warnings about speaking of Sauron. In FotR Gandalf tells Pippin to not call Frodo the Lord of the Ring because "Evil things do not come into this valley;but all the same we should not name them." So perhaps saying his name allows him to somehow focus on the person speaking of it. Names are more than superficial in LotR, Aragorn himself didn't know his true name until he was grown.

I think Gandalf's admonishment of Pippin there had more to do with trying to impress upon a young Hobbit that the situation was still very serious, in spite of their having reached Rivendell. Pippin himself saw Gandalf's words as an attempt of "keeping in order" Pippin.

All the same, you're right in that names have power in ME. Look at the Nazgûl, and the Mouth of Sauron, who did not use their own names, and at least in the Mouth's case, had no idea what their original names were, having lost themselves in Sauron's identity.

[Galadriel55]

Its true that the names reflect the person, and have a particular significance. For example, "Lord of the Rings" could pottentially bring shadow, and "Elbereth Gilthoniel" gives hope.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I don't think it would be unreasonable to say that before Eä, they didn't have any needs of names or language, because they may not even have been physical, or at least in the sense that we are or understand.

It would only be once they entered the physical world of Eä that they would have a need for a language, as that would be when they could start becoming incarnate, and would need to (or more likely, just choose to, since they do literally have the whole of time to try new things) start using a language.

Well my point was about the possible pitfalls of using letters here. In letter 211 Tolkien broadly (or simply) says that the Valar had no language, and that they had no 'true' names -- explaining that their names were given them by the Elves, and were nicknames.

To me this is quite different from the later conception: at some point the Valar have their own language, and: '... for though the Valar have right names, they do not reveal them.' (save Orome and so on).