Íluvatar's opponents?

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

Hi.

I wanted to know whether Tolkien has ever written something about opponents of Iluvatar. We only get to know that he is very mighty and "the" God and stands above everything that happens on Arda.

As we know the Valar had their opponent - Morgoth. But did Iluvatar had one as well, beyond Arda?

Thx.

[InklingElf]

I don't believe so, I haven't seen or read anything about that topic but ,yes I have been wondering about that too

Sorry I couldn't give you a definite answer [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Legolas]

No. There is no other being/force on any level above the Ainur. Eru was the creator of everything that 'was' and 'is.' Evil existed only in Arda, and came about not from Eru, but as a result of the subcreative powers and free will contained therein.

[Eru]

well said legalos. truly, if you have read the sil, HoME, etc. nowhere is it said that there was somebody to contest with the will of Iluvatar. all evil has a root in morgoth.

even though Eru didn't make him evil. but i wonder, if Iluvatar knew all that has happened and will happened, why didn't he stop Morgoth? or is it some greater design he has in store?

Without suffering there could be no compassion. (heard that in a movie, don't it was origanal though)

[Legolas]

but i wonder, if Iluvatar knew all that has happened and will happened, why didn't he stop Morgoth? or is it some greater design he has in store?

There are multiple threads about this. I've provided many quotes from Tolkien that explain your questions in the first post in this thread. It's entirely different matter which is off-topic in this thread, so to be succinct, Eru says this:

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument, in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

Thus, whether acting in accordance with Eru's will or trying to go against it, Morgoth will only prove Eru's design to be perfect as Eru's will be carried out regardless - there's nothing Morgoth can do about it. If you have other questions, read an interesting essay by Tolkien called Osanwe-kenta ('Enquiry into the Communication of Thought') and search the forum for such topics - I know a couple have taken place just recently on the topic. Post thoughts or questions on those, or if you have questions unique from those others, start your own thread.

Now back to your regularly scheduled topic.

[Yavanna Kementari]

From God and Ilúvatar's point think of it like this:

" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

Ilúvatar can do anything he wanted to do with Morgoth, but chose not to. Why? It is not for us to know the whole of Eru's purpose.
I know this personally, I was there singing when Morgoths voice tried to over come the Ainulindalë
Then Ilúvatar said to him:

Mighty are the Ainur and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know,and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar....Then the Ainur were afraid, and they did not yet comprehend th ewords of that were said to them; and Melkor was filled with shame, of which came a secret anger.

This is the begining of Morgoths fall.
Ilúvatar has no opponents only vain imaginations of those creations(made by the thought and word of Ilúvatar) wishing to oppose him. I hopw this answers your Question! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] -{~{~> Yavanna

[Iarwain]

Good job and Great quotes, Yavanna. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I agree with you.

Look at it this way: if God (Eru) had a rival that was coeval, how could He be in control, and how could all things serve his purpose. The two would negate each other out. There goes the universe... Nothing would work, because of these deadlocked opposing forces. The idea simply doesn't work. It contradicts all logic. Ridiculous. I'm getting a headache just thinking of it. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] Arrrrghhh!!!

Outside the limits of thought,
Iarwain

[ January 21, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Melkor is the founder of all evil in all of Ea, the void included. Read 'Myths Transfromed' HoME 10.

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

I am not pointing at any enemies within Arda, I mean outside of it and not the beings created by Iluvatar. Like in our world, we have a God(okay, for those who believe it) and we have a Devil.

Wasn't there something equal in Tolkien's World? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Inderjit Sanghera]

No, everything is created by Eru. Melkor is pretty much the devil of the whole of Arda/Void. He was the starter of evil. Of the Ainur who stayed with Eru, some went to SERVE Melkor, but all others remained faithful to Eru.
He was said to have gathered quite a few spirits from the void after he had been driven out by Tulkas, for his return to Arda and the overthrowing of the lamps and he was said to have some secret agents in Almaren, of whom Sauron was the chief.

[ January 22, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]

[Legolas]

The Witch-King of Angmar:

The idea does parallel in the way that you're thinking.

The Devil you refer to is a being created by God. He was originally a very high angel, Lucifer, that became too greedy and thought he could be God. He was driven from heaven with a number of his followers. God had no original opposition.

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

Oh, didn't knew that. Thanks. Have to read the Bible again. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Eru]

while you're on that subject, how could the devil even hope to contend with God?

how could Morgoth contend with Iluvatar?

not happening eitheir way, right?

[aragornreborn]

Nope. But that's where pride comes in. That always seems to be the main fault in villains. They're too proud to realize that they can not win.

[Jurion]

I think that Morgoth was based on Satan by Tolkien, who was a Catholic.

Just as Satan fell and turned to evil, so did Morgotgh fall and turned to evil. They were both the mightiest of their respective orders, Satan of Angels and Morgoth of the Ainur.

But both of them also serve the purpose of their creators. Without evil, how can we perceive and love good, and God and Eru are beings of goodness and love. And for that purpose evil exists, but in the end God's/Eru's will shall be triumphant.

On the topic of this thread: No I don't think that Illuvatar had an evil counterpart or opponent. But most of the arguments that I can think of were already posted by others.

[ January 22, 2003: Message edited by: Jurion ]

[The Saucepan Man]

But both of them also serve the purpose of their creators. Without evil, how can we perceive and love good, and God and Eru are beings of goodness and love. And for that purpose evil exists, but in the end God's/Eru's will shall be triumphant.

So, if Melkor had really wanted to defeat Iluvatar's purpose, he should have remained good. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[Legolas]

No, that's not the concept. By praising Eru or cursing him, a being would prove his design to be perfect. Whether good or evil, the being would make a choice - exercising his/her privlege of free will - which would show that whether or not he/she chose good, the outcome would be as Eru would have it. That his will was greater than theirs and would come through no matter what The good triumphant, the evil falls. His design is ultimate goodness.

As I quoted earlier from Tolkien:

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument, in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

[ January 22, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Eru]

and what i get out of that, is that no matter what side you choose, you are helping Eru's cause. so if morgoth had been good to begin with, what would have happened?

[The Saucepan Man]

So, basically, whatever happened, it was Eru's will. The guy can't lose! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

But, isn't the point a good one: that without evil, there can be no appreciation of good? Had Melkor not turned out bad, Eru's will would not have been completely fulfilled (or, perhaps the better word is appreciated).

[Iarwain]

I disagree, Jurion. How could God/Eru want there to be evil? Think of the suffering, the loss, the corruption. Rather, I think that Melkor/Satan's corruption shows how, as Yavanna quoted, all things work together for good. Because evil/Melkor/Satan has truly no possible way of contending with God/Eru, all things turn out for the greater good. Tolkien even writes Eru saying this to Melkor, as Legolas quoted.

Iarwain


P.S. Saucepan, time for a direct confrontation. Without evil, there would be pure, unfettered joy and love. You cannot say that evil is good in the eyes of God, unless you are a pantheist, in which you would not believe in good or evil, or a distinction between the two. How could God so desire that corruption awoke in his beloved creation, that those whom he loved unconditionally began to hate him? I strongly recommend reading Perelandra by Lewis. Does disobedience bring joy? Is there happiness
in evil. No, there is not. When Melkor rebels, he ruins himself, he torments himself, he puts himself and others through horrible things that can never be taken back or changed. You argue, perhaps, that great wisdom and understanding came to the elves of Melkor's rebellion. But imagine if such wisdom, appreciation, and understanding came through Eru, through joy, and kindness, rather than cruelty. Would you prefer to learn about the human nervous system by having your nerves charged, or feeling a gentle touch? Appreciation perhaps, did come of evil, but does that make the evil good?

Iarwain

[ January 22, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[Legolas]

Eru knew that people might act outside of his wishes, and in knowing that, he knew they were also defeating themselves, so he worried not.

Had Melkor not turned out bad, Eru's will would not have been completely fulfilled (or, perhaps the better word is appreciated).

Appreciated is a good word - I don't think 'fulfilled' works, though. No one acting evil would just mean that Eru's design would never be proved perfect. It was obvious that someone would do bad to do that though. If no one had, then the world would be all the better.

Also, Morgoth was not the only one who could turn bad. Tolkien makes apparent in the Osanwe-kenta that Morgoth's place could've well been filled by any of the other Valar. (And if not a Valar, surely another being would've done evil.)

Evil is not required for good to be, though. Before the world was created and Morgoth was given his knowledge of Arda, the Ainur still abode with Eru and everything was peachy then (just as the angels praised God prior to Lucifer's fall, if you're familiar with that story).

[ January 22, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[The Saucepan Man]

So, Eru needed Morgoth (or one of the other Valar) to turn to evil so that his work could be appreciated.

But then I guess he's probably not so vain as to feel the need to be appreciated. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

*Ducks confrontation with Iarwain* I never said that evil was good in the eyes of Eru (or God, for that matter). I am just trying to figure out the implications of what others have said (which is why each of my posts rather irritatingly starts with "So ..."). [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ January 22, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[ January 22, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Iarwain]

Read my last post Saucepan!!! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Respond to it! I'd like to know shat you think. Also, I wish you didn't push anthropomorphism into the realms of pride and jealosy when dealing with God, your taking it a little to far when you make jokes about such matters. What do you think of the characteristics of Eru/God?

Curiously [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Iarwain

[Yavanna Kementari]

I think this has become the most interesting post I have seen yet!! Excellent that you all are thinking. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I love to see minds at work, it's like the " Artwork of the Brain!!"

Let me shed some light if I may From an Ainur's point of view.

Ilúvatars will and purpose IS PERFECT.

Melkor/Satan's fall began with his pride. Yes he was the most beautiful and strongest Ainur/Angel in Arda/Heaven, but his pride in this caused him shame and secret anger( of course not hidden from the heart of Ilúvatar). And when Melkor chose of his own free will to try and over ride the Ainulindalë, Ilúvatar made all arighted and told him what I quoted to you earlier and that is why All thing work for good.
What does this mean? It doesnot mean that what Morgoth did is Ilúvatars perfect will, But he knew Morgoth would try and in his infinite mind devised a way to once again change the tune of the Ainulindalë, and that is how Ilúvatars will is perfect.

The BALANCE between good and evil is not a balance at all that some like to think. Good has ALREADY OVER COME EVIL!!!! This is Ilúvatars perfect plan!! Sounds perfect to me. Worldly the balance is tipped,but it is only an illusion that Melkor would like you to believe. Like the Darkness that spreads over Middle Earth, it makes your eyes blind and the hope in your heart falter.

In answer to some one, If you follow Morgoths path it is NOT PERFECT.See what happened to Gollum,he followed Morgoths path and the power of SELF over came him, though his actions were evil, Ilúvatar used him in His perfect will and in the end it was Gollum that destroyed the ring. Part of all things work for good( for those that love Righteousness.) [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I know that there is still suffering in Middle Earth and my heart aches for the Peoples of Middle Earth, but think of it this way; we see evil all the time and it darkens our hope. But the evil that was done only exercises our hope to make it stronger and there is another instance of Good over coming evil. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Boy I could spend days at this post. I think I might. VERY GOOD THOUGHTS!! ~Yavanna

[Jurion]

Iarwain, would there have been good without evil? I think not because people have nothing to compare good to they don't know what good is. And without evil everything can't join forces to do good. If Illuvatar has said to Melkor that everything will eventualt turn out fine and according to his plans, then yes Illuvatar wanted there to be evil.

And Illuvatar gave beings freedom of will. But freedom of will is useless if you have nothing to choose. If you choose good then you do not choose evil. Without evil there would be nothing to choose.

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

And did Ilúvatar foresee Morgoths fall already before the Music of the Ainur?

That leads me to another question:

Men had the chance to do as they wish, but if so, how could they be Ilúvatar's instruments to "devise things more wonderful"?

Thanks.

[Legolas]

So, Eru needed Morgoth (or one of the other Valar) to turn to evil so that his work could be appreciated. But then I guess he's probably not so vain as to feel the need to be appreciated.

No. He didn't *need* and doesn't need anything, nor will he ever. Any being doing good or evil - any being doing what he intended it to do, which is "being" - is fulfilling his plan. It only shows us that his design is perfect. He knew it from the beginning.

[Iarwain]

Jurion, evil need not exist for people to choose it, that is what free will is for. And I think you have what Eru said wrong. It was that whatever Melkor did, he would cause it to make good greater. If you were a father, would you like your young child to go around kicking your other kids and telling lies about you?

Iarwain

[Eru]

Iarwain, would there have been good without evil? I think not because people have nothing to compare good to they don't know what good is. And without evil everything can't join forces to do good. If Illuvatar has said to Melkor that everything will eventualt turn out fine and according to his plans, then yes Illuvatar wanted there to be evil.

if there was no evil, then was only good. but you are right, people wouldn't see themselves as 'good', only as being. and that was iluvatar's purpose. correct?

[The Saucepan Man]

No. He didn't *need* and doesn't need anything, nor will he ever. Any being doing good or evil - any being doing what he intended it to do, which is "being" - is fulfilling his plan. It only shows us that his design is perfect. He knew it from the beginning.

Arghh! I'm getting a headache Legolas! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I understand that a divine being like Eru doesn't have needs, in the sense of needing his works to be appreciated. But, if everything that happens, whether good or evil, happens according to his will, doesn't that render him kind of obsolete, apart from the act of creation? He needs take no further part, since all that happens was meant to happen. This contrasts with the Christian God, who send plagues and floods and the like when humans stray from the path and, in the New Testament, takes human form to preach love and forgiveness and to die for the sins of humanity.

It seems to me that Eru did intervene, through his representatives on Arda, the Valar, and through their messengers (the Istari, for example). And, why would this to happen if there was not some divine purpose that required to be fulfilled (rather than simply existence)?

As for the necessity of evil, I am attracted by Jurion's idea that evil was a necessary part of Eru's design because, without evil, there could be no appreciation of good and also, more importantly, there could be no exercise of free will without a choice between two (or more) paths. By exercising their free will to choose good, and fight evil, the "good" characters are given an opportunity to reach their full potential. This would not have happened had evil never existed. That is not to say that Eru intended all the suffering that occured in consequence of the existence of evil, merely that it was a necessary part of the divine plan.

Read my last post Saucepan!!! Respond to it! I'd like to know what you think. Also, I wish you didn't push anthropomorphism into the realms of pride and jealosy when dealing with God, your taking it a little to far when you make jokes about such matters. What do you think of the characteristics of Eru/God?

Sorry, Iarwain. I had not seen your post when I typed my original reply, but I did edit it to put in a response. I mean no offence. I am addressing the position of Eru, a fictional (albeit divine) character, not seeking to be flippant about God. My own spiritual beliefs are pretty unique to me and, since they are quite different from JRRT's portrayal of Eru, they are probably not a suitable topic for dicussion here. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ January 23, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Iarwain]

Very good, Saucepan, I approve. I automatically assumed that (another one of my foolish assumptions [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) Eru represented God in the real world, and therefore was not really speaking from Tolkien's works, but from my own beliefs.

Iarwain

[aragornreborn]

Eru is a pure Spirit. He is incapable of doing any evil by His very nature. Thus, everything that happens can not be His will because evil happens, and He can do nor will no evil. That does not mean he is powerless over evil and that it happens in spite of Him. Rather, He has given His creations free will. He doesn’t want robots. He wants His creations to choose Him (good) over evil, but He also allows His creations to choose evil over good. He wills them to have free will. He knows that some of them will do evil deeds. He does not want them to, but He has given them free will. Eru knew that Melkor would betray Him, just as He knows all of the future actions for all His creations. He does not will anyone to do evil, but He knows some will. He does, however, turn those evil deeds into good which is what is meant by the quote “And we know that all things work together for good”. Take Gollum (as has already been mentioned). Eru did not will Gollum to do evil. But Eru had given Gollum free will, and so Gollum did what he wanted which was evil. Eru did turn Gollum’s evil for his own purpose, though. He ultimately used Gollum to destroy the Ring, Sauron, and much evil in Middle Earth. That does not mean, however, that Eru needed evil or needed Gollum to do evil. He would have eliminated the Ring, Sauron, and evil some other way if Gollum had not done evil. Eru does not want anyone to do evil. But, since He is all-powerful and pure, He can not allow evil to “win.” So, Eru uses all actions for His plan. He wants good actions, but when evil occurs, He will rob evil of its supposed power by turning that evil into good. In essence, one may disobey Eru and do evil, but one may never go against His plan.

Phew! I hope that makes sense. I am sure I will have to try to re-explain myself. But since I am replying to nearly everything that has been said, I packed a lot into a small space.

[Jurion]

Indeed Aragornreborn, Eru is a incapable of doing evil, he just does something, it is neither good nor evil.

[The Saucepan Man]

aragornreborn, I agree that Eru is incapable of doing evil, and also that he does not intend evil to occur. The theory that I am exploring is that evil is a necessary part of his divine plan. And, combining these concepts, it follows that evil will always ultimately be defeated. This is consistent with the books as works of fiction. The reader inevitably knows that, although suffering and hardship must be endured along the way, the "good" characters will ultimately prevail. That is the essence of a story such as this.

I am interested that you see Eru as having intervened directly in the Quest to destroy the Ring (and, therefore, Sauron). I had seen his intervention through the presence of the Istari, their purpose being to guide the occupants of ME in their struggle against evil (and Gandalf being the only one of them (as far as we are aware) who sticks to this aim and succesfully follows it through). But, the Istari cannot carry out the task themselves - this must be done by the humans and hobbits, by making choices based upon their free will.

You suggest, however, that Eru intervened more directly, by causing Gollum to slip at the vital moment. But, if he was able to intervene in this way, why did he not do so earlier, for example by causing Isildur to slip, or to drop the Ring, when he stood on the edge of Orodruin? Perhaps because the subsequent years of evil had to be endured to allow humans (and hobbits) to reach their full potential?

(By way of an aside, while Gollum can, I think, be described as an instrument of evil, being driven by his desire for the Ring, it is possibly unfair to describe him as having had a choice in this matter. I see him as having been under the influence of the Ring (and therefore denied free will) from the moment it came into his life. Perhaps it might be said that he was weak-willed, since he came under its influence so quickly and so easily.)

On reflection, I think you are right on the question of whether Eru intervened directly. If it is correct to say that it was his will that good would triumph in the end, then there was always a possibility that he would have to intervene to ensure that this did indeed happen. But, then again, doesn't that run against the concept of free will, ie that evil had to be defeated through the exercise of free will?

Now I'm getting myself confused. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Aratlithiel]

It would seem to me that anytime you assume that Good will prevail in the end because Eru, God, Allah or any other deity wills it, you are necessarily substituting free will (which is a consistent gift to Man from most any deity in any religion you choose) for fate - and fate, by nature, removes free will. I don't think you can have both - they are extremely contradictory and not in line with the claim of perfection that these deities maintain.

Scenario 1 - Eru gives Morgoth free will and Morgoth freely chooses to do evil against the designs of Eru. Conclusion: Eru is not perfect.

Scenario 2 - Eru invests Morgoth with evil purposes in order to foster an appreciation of Good. Conclusion: Morgoth does not have free will.

I don't think you can have it both ways on this. HOWEVER, since we've already broached the subject of Judeo-Christian comparison, I would like to point out that in this context, Morgoth would be equivalent to an angel and angels were not granted free will. Free will was in fact the very reason for the revolt led by Lucifer - he didn't appreciate the fact that humans were granted it and angels were not. So, did Lucifer excercise free will when he led the revolt or was it God's design? (Now read that again and substitute Morgoth for Lucifer and Eru for God.) And if it wasn't His design, wouldn't that mean He's imperfect?

In essence, I don't think you can have a deity claiming perfection and divine purpose as well as the bestowment of the gift of free will upon his creations. If there is divine purpose, there must necessarily be fate and if there is fate, there is necessarily, no free will.

Now, how do we bring this back to the subject at hand? The original question was, did Iluvatar have any opponents? If by this you mean one that was outside his creations, then I believe the answer to be no. But, if we can read it a little more deeply and ask whether Iluvatar had any opponents at all, I would have to say that Morgoth would qualify since, although he is a Valar, he has made himself an opponent of them, and by association, an opponent of Iluvatar as well. Witch-King, when you ask this question and make a corrolary to God and Satan, you must take into consideration that Satan was God's creation which did not stop him from becoming His adversary. I don't see much difference in the God vs. Satan subject and the Iluvatar vs. Morgoth one. But in either case, you can't really consider them opponents at all if you assume divine purpose - divine purpose would mean that they were acting as they were meant to by their respective deities which would essentially make them that deity's allies - whether they knew it or not. The only way either of them can be considered true adversaries to their creators would be if we took away divine purpose and assumed free will.

[ January 24, 2003: Message edited by: Aratlithiel ]

[ January 24, 2003: Message edited by: Aratlithiel ]

[aragornreborn]

Indeed Aragornreborn, Eru is a incapable of doing evil, he just does something, it is neither good nor evil.

Just out of curiosity's sake, how do you (personally) define good and evil so I know where you're coming from? I have always believed that Eru is synonymous with good. And that any rebellion from Him, is evil. So, good has always existed, and evil has not. If they were on equal footing, Eru would not be in control, if you follow me. So, I hold that Eru=Good and that rebellion from Eru=Evil. Therefore, evil is not necessary, but is merely an act of free willed rebellion.

[aragornreborn]

Saucepan Man:

he does not intend evil to occur.

Do you mean intend or want? From what I have read of Eru, He is omnipotent. Thus, if He did not intend evil to occur then He would have prevented it. So, He must allow it to occur. But since he is a pure spirit, it must not please him.

The theory that I am exploring is that evil is a necessary part of his divine plan.

I believe that when He bestowed free will on His creations, He knew that evil was inevitable because his creations were not and could not be perfect. He didn’t create co-equal gods. Thus, His creations could not be perfect. So, in making imperfect, free-willed creations, evil was inevitable, but not necessary. If He intended or required evil to occur, He could not be a pure spirit which He is. A pure spirit can not desire evil to occur.

I am interested that you see Eru as having intervened directly in the Quest to destroy the Ring (and, therefore, Sauron).

I do not necessarily believe that Eru personally nudged Gollum into the volcano. I believe He could have. I do believe that Eru can use anyone and anything for His purpose (including slippery stones), but He may also just do it Himself.

But, the Istari cannot carry out the task themselves - this must be done by the humans and hobbits, by making choices based upon their free will.

That is how Eru chose things to work, but make no mistake, humans and hobbits and any other free-willed characters can not contend with the will of Eru. While they do have free-will, Eru can still use all actions for his purposes.

You suggest, however, that Eru intervened more directly, by causing Gollum to slip at the vital moment. But, if he was able to intervene in this way, why did he not do so earlier, for example by causing Isildur to slip, or to drop the Ring, when he stood on the edge of Orodruin? Perhaps because the subsequent years of evil had to be endured to allow humans (and hobbits) to reach their full potential?

I don’t know and can’t know how and why Eru does all things (that is why I am the imperfect human and he is the perfect God), but I can tell you that He does know what He’s doing. He is described, after all, as omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. So one must assume that He has power over all things and the knowledge to execute that power at the proper time. I do believe Eru can use the results of evil to teach his creations valuable lessons and to cause them to grow.

(By way of an aside, while Gollum can, I think, be described as an instrument of evil, being driven by his desire for the Ring, it is possibly unfair to describe him as having had a choice in this matter. I see him as having been under the influence of the Ring (and therefore denied free will) from the moment it came into his life. Perhaps it might be said that he was weak-willed, since he came under its influence so quickly and so easily.)

If Eru is the One Who gave free will, then it makes sense that He would be the only One able to limit free will (which I don’t believe He does). Thus the Ring can not have denied Gollum free will. Gollum must have chosen directly for himself. He saw Deagol with the ring, wanted it, killed Deagol, and took it.

If it is correct to say that it was his will that good would triumph in the end, then there was always a possibility that he would have to intervene to ensure that this did indeed happen. But, then again, doesn't that run against the concept of free will, ie that evil had to be defeated through the exercise of free will?

I just had a revelation! Not only does Eru use the free will of others for His purpose, but He is an omnipotent God! He’ll let Gollum (and everyone else) make the wrong decisions, but He will also punish them for those decisions. He can still let them exercise their free will but may push them into a lava pit either as punishment or because that’s what He wants.

[aragornreborn]

Aratlithiel:

I disagree (lol seems like I’ve been doing a lot of that lately)

Anyway, as I mentioned in my post before this one. Both Eru and His creations may have free will. That is, He gives them the power to make choices for themselves, but may discipline them for their choices or use His own power to intervene (which is different from prohibiting free will).

Also, where in the Bible does it say angels do not have free will? I can’t think of a passage that directly says the do, but… Because Lucifer rebelled from God, God will punish Lucifer. He would not be a just and perfect God, if He is going to punish someone who had no free will or who had been directly told to do something by God Himself.

[Aratlithiel]

My point exactly. (Oh, what a can of worms we've opened here!) The Bible barely touches on the issue of Lucifer and his fall from grace. You must research Jewish lore and angelic studies if you want to learn anything about the rebellion. I can refer you to some excellent resource materials if you're ever interested in tackling it (I must warn you that I minored in Theological Studies so if you ask for it, you'll get it with both barrels!). I could type about it for hours, but since this is a Tolkien forum, I'll spare you.

If He intended or required evil to occur, He could not be a pure spirit which He is.

OK, then how can he be perfect? Evil did, indeed occur, which was not his intention - therefore, Eru was mistaken and thus not perfect.

Not only does Eru use the free will of others for His purpose, but He is an omnipotent God! He’ll let Gollum (and everyone else) make the wrong decisions, but He will also punish them for those decisions. He can still let them exercise their free will but may push them into a lava pit either as punishment or because that’s what He wants.

That's a very contradictory statement and not in keeping with the image of a just deity. And how does this fit in with a perfect deity? Doesn't perfection imply kindness and mercy as well as omniscience? If Eru created a being who had so little will to resist the Ring, how could he possibly punish that being for succumbing to the very weakness he created in it? The whole idea of Eru's divine plan is that everything that happened to the Ring, Eru MEANT to happen. Therefore, Isildur was MEANT to deny his opportunity to destroy it and to die in the river, Deagol was MEANT to find the Ring and be slain by Smeagol, Bilbo was MEANT to pick it up in the cave and Frodo was MEANT to carry it to Mt. Doom, fail to destroy it and then Gollum was MEANT ro attack him and unwittingly accomplish the task. So, in order to accomplish all this, we need to start out with a weak-willed Smeagol. Are you really saying that Eru created him for just this purpose and then punished him for carrying it out? Not to mention, of course, that every bit of this totally negates the concept of free will.

[The Saucepan Man]

First of all, let me reiterate that, in this thread, I am discussing Iluvatar/Eru, the fictional divine character created by JRR Tolkien. I feel perfectly able to speculate on what Eru, as a fictional character, might or might not have intended, but I am unable (and wholly unqualified) to speculate upon the the purposes of God, or Allah, or Vishnu, or any other divine being that is worshipped in reality. Clearly, personal beliefs add (often immense) value to the discussions, but let's remember that we are discussing a work of fiction.

And to answer a point that you raised, aragronreborn, I see "good" and "evil" in the context of this discussion as being defined by the way in which the characters in JRRT's tales acted. In LotR, certainly, it is fairly easy to spot which are the good characters and which are the evil ones. There are a few borderline, for example Boromir, Denethor and Gollum. Boromir acted in the way he did out of a desire to do good (save his people and defeat Sauron). He is therefore an intrinsically good character. And he ultimately redeemed himself for his weak-willed moment, when he gave into the power of the Ring. Denethor and Gollum, on the other hand, are both irredeemably corrupted by the power of evil. Denethor gives into hopelessness in the face of what he regards as irresistable evil. Gollum is directly influenced by the evil power of the Ring. Both are weak-willed, but do not redeem themselves by any conscious exercise of free will (unlike Boromir). But neither is either of them intrinsically evil (in the sense, say, that Sauron is). I do not agree with you, aragornreborn, that they are punished by Eru for giving into evil, but I do agree that they had a choice not to give into it and ended up making the wrong choice. They therefore suffer the inevitable consequences of that failure.

I remain of the view that Eru did not intend evil to occur. I agree with you, aragornreborn, that "inevitable" is a better word than "necessary". Evil was an inevitable part of his plan. Eru gave the beings that he created free will. If you give someone free will, that means they are free to make a choice in what they do, including making a choice to do evil (in the cases of Sauron and Saruman) or not to resist the influence of evil (in Denethor and Gollum's cases).

That having being said, I think that what Aratlithiel says is true to an extent. If the beings that Eru created have free will, then it is not in itself inevitable that good will prevail. This is why I was interested in exporing whether it was open to Eru personally to intervene in the struggles of the beings that he created. Because, if he could, then it was inevitable that good would prevail (assuming that this was his will) because he could intervene to make it so. But then, why give beings free will if he was always going to "fix" things if they did not exercise that free will correctly? There is a tension between his gift of free choice and his apparent omnipotence. Unless, of course, he was not concerned with how matters turned out?

This brings me back to my intial view that, having created beings with free will, it was up to those beings to determine the fate of Arda. In that sense, it might be said that Eru has no opponents because he is not "playing the game". He set it in motion, but then stood back and let the beings he created battle it out.

I am conscious that my views are evolving as this thread continues. This is because these are issues which I have not previously spent a great deal of time thinking about. But, I am enormously enjoying doing so now (and I reserve the right to change my mind again depending upon the content of future posts!). [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ January 24, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]