Maia Match - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Ar-Luman · 09-24-2002, 06:35 AM

When the Valar were created it is assumed they had all thier powers to begin with. So whether or not you were an ainur or maia your power was an absolute. How is it that after the death of Gandalf he had the power to command Saruman. Even if the white council had granted him leadership, all of the council members were less powerful than Saruman to begin with. So how was this possible.

Selmo · 09-24-2002, 07:03 AM

When the Istari were sent to Middle Earth, they left most of their Maia powers and abilities, and also much of their memory, behind them. They arrived with little more than a capacity for wisdom and took on the form and nature of Men.

Their role was to be one of advise and persuation; they were not to become leaders or warriors.

Saruman's limited power was erroded by his attempt to dominate others, but Gandalf appears to have been given back a little of his surrendered Maia power when he returned as Gandalf The White.

Rimbaud · 09-24-2002, 08:30 AM

Connected to this topic, although not strictly in line with the original question, I came across what I believe to be a good demonstration of the Istari's self-limitation upon ME. Gandalf speaks thus (I paraphrase): "I once knew all the spells of every race, Elf Man and Dwarf..." etc.. A very clear idea of the limitation that the 'Old Man' form the Istari were bound within, in their time upon ME.

Mithuial · 09-24-2002, 08:59 PM

not to mention Gandalf was the only of all the Istari to stick to the original commision. They were commanded to guide and help all who dwelled in middle earth, to not settle in one place, and to not desire power or rule over others. Saruman obviously broke this. Radagast pretty much ignored elves and men and instead made friends with birds, and the other two came to middle earth and were never heard from again. I think that Gandalf's obedience was perhaps initially rewarded with furthur glory. It's a thought.

lathspell · 09-25-2002, 03:03 PM

Radagast's coming was and purpose was never clear, and he might have had a task from Yavanna to take care for all living things in M-e or sth [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
Yet it is not mentioned, I believe, that staying in one place, as Radagast did in Rhosgobel, was not allowed. Little is known about Radagast at all, so I don't see why any can say that he failed.

greetings,
lathspell

P.S.: Radagast did his job for the White Council as well (i.e.: helping Gandalf by his visits in Dol Guldur and helping them driving out Sauron from the same hill).

Mithuial · 09-25-2002, 09:34 PM

yes, that's true. I'm not dissing Radagast, cuz I think he's pretty cool, and, yes, perhaps he truly was on some mission from Yavanna (never really thought about that before. I always thought that all the Istari were told the same thing). I suppose I spoke a little too quickly. Note to self: stop judging wizards! Anyway, I still think Gandalf was the only one that truly stuck to his comission, but you have a very valid point. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

09-24-2002, 06:35 AM	#1
Ar-Luman Animated Skeleton Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Irving, Tx Posts: 27	Maia Match When the Valar were created it is assumed they had all thier powers to begin with. So whether or not you were an ainur or maia your power was an absolute. How is it that after the death of Gandalf he had the power to command Saruman. Even if the white council had granted him leadership, all of the council members were less powerful than Saruman to begin with. So how was this possible. __________________ "and I, I took the one less traveled by and that has made all the difference."

09-24-2002, 08:30 AM	#3
Rimbaud The Perilous Poet Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Heart of the matter Posts: 1,062	Connected to this topic, although not strictly in line with the original question, I came across what I believe to be a good demonstration of the Istari's self-limitation upon ME. Gandalf speaks thus (I paraphrase): "I once knew all the spells of every race, Elf Man and Dwarf..." etc.. A very clear idea of the limitation that the 'Old Man' form the Istari were bound within, in their time upon ME. __________________ And all the rest is literature

09-24-2002, 08:59 PM	#4
Mithuial Animated Skeleton Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Doriath Posts: 35	not to mention Gandalf was the only of all the Istari to stick to the original commision. They were commanded to guide and help all who dwelled in middle earth, to not settle in one place, and to not desire power or rule over others. Saruman obviously broke this. Radagast pretty much ignored elves and men and instead made friends with birds, and the other two came to middle earth and were never heard from again. I think that Gandalf's obedience was perhaps initially rewarded with furthur glory. It's a thought. __________________ "And Maglor answered: 'If it be truly the Silmaril which we saw cast into the sea that rises again by the power of the Valar, then let us be glad; for its glory is seen now by many, and is yet secure from all evil.' Then the Elves looked up, and despaired no longer, but Morgoth was filled with doubt." -The Silmarillion.

09-25-2002, 03:03 PM	#5
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	Radagast's coming was and purpose was never clear, and he might have had a task from Yavanna to take care for all living things in M-e or sth [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] Yet it is not mentioned, I believe, that staying in one place, as Radagast did in Rhosgobel, was not allowed. Little is known about Radagast at all, so I don't see why any can say that he failed. greetings, lathspell P.S.: Radagast did his job for the White Council as well (i.e.: helping Gandalf by his visits in Dol Guldur and helping them driving out Sauron from the same hill). __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

09-25-2002, 09:34 PM	#6
Mithuial Animated Skeleton Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Doriath Posts: 35	yes, that's true. I'm not dissing Radagast, cuz I think he's pretty cool, and, yes, perhaps he truly was on some mission from Yavanna (never really thought about that before. I always thought that all the Istari were told the same thing). I suppose I spoke a little too quickly. Note to self: stop judging wizards! Anyway, I still think Gandalf was the only one that truly stuck to his comission, but you have a very valid point. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ "And Maglor answered: 'If it be truly the Silmaril which we saw cast into the sea that rises again by the power of the Valar, then let us be glad; for its glory is seen now by many, and is yet secure from all evil.' Then the Elves looked up, and despaired no longer, but Morgoth was filled with doubt." -The Silmarillion.

09-24-2002, 07:03 AM	#2
Selmo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom Posts: 273	When the Istari were sent to Middle Earth, they left most of their Maia powers and abilities, and also much of their memory, behind them. They arrived with little more than a capacity for wisdom and took on the form and nature of Men. Their role was to be one of advise and persuation; they were not to become leaders or warriors. Saruman's limited power was erroded by his attempt to dominate others, but Gandalf appears to have been given back a little of his surrendered Maia power when he returned as Gandalf The White.