Inconsistencies

[The Mouth of Sauron]

I'm sure fellow Tolkien enthusiasts can highlight inconsistencies in the books. Here's a few for starters : -

- At the Hornburg Gimli says he had "hewed naught but wood since Moria" after killing 2 orcs. But surely he had killed orcs at Parth Galen ?

- Gandalf released Shadowfax in Eriador two months before the Company left Rivendell, but Eomer told Aragorn that the horse had returned to Rohan only 7 days before they met in the Wold.

- Denethor and Saruman both encountered Sauron using their respective Palantir. Yet Denethor was not dominated and Saruman was. Surely it should have been the other way round ?

- What was the point of Eowyn dressing up as Dernhelm ? Surely the sight of a hobbit sitting on her horse with her would have given her away anyway ? Same goes for the scene in the film before the Riders charge at the Pelennor.

- Why didn't the Ents intercept Mauhur and his "lads" skulking in Fangorn ?

- If time was of the essence, why did the Company take so long before setting off from Rivendell and why did they hang about for so long in Lorien ?

- Why did Aragorn not tell the rest of the Company that Gollum was following them through Moria ? "You know about our little footpad" .

- If Gildor and his company could see off the Black Riders, wouldn't it have made more sense for Gildor to provide an escort for Frodo to get him safely to Rivendell ?

- When Boromir's horse bolted at Tharbad and returned to Rohan, surely Edoras would have told Minas Tirith, who in turn would have organised some kind of search party ?

- If Gwaihir could fly to Mount Doom in a matter of minutes, why not just give him the Ring and ask him to fly down there and drop it in the volcano ?

[Inziladun]

Hmm. Many of these questions probably could have (and actually have) been individual topics of discussion.

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

- At the Hornburg Gimli says he had "hewed naught but wood since Moria" after killing 2 orcs. But surely he had killed orcs at Parth Galen?

When Gimli and Legolas find Aragron beside Boromir's body, Gimli does have his axe in his hand, and Legolas notes they 'have fought and hunted many' orcs. Legolas's arrows were gone, so he obviously saw some combat. Perhaps Gimli wasn't able to get close enough for melee action.

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

- Gandalf released Shadowfax in Eriador two months before the Company left Rivendell, but Eomer told Aragorn that the horse had returned to Rohan only 7 days before they met in the Wold.

The fact that Shadowfax had only recently been seen again wouldn't preclude his having been there for longer. Rohan was a fair size country.

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

- Denethor and Saruman both encountered Sauron using their respective Palantir. Yet Denethor was not dominated and Saruman was. Surely it should have been the other way round?

As the UT essay on the Palantíri indicates, the Anor-stone was easier and safer for Denethor to use because he had a right as the Ruling Steward of Gondor to do so. Saruman had no such advantage. Also, Saruman's mind had become similar to Sauron's anyway in the desire for domination and power, so that might have been a point against Saruman as well.

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

- What was the point of Eowyn dressing up as Dernhelm ? Surely the sight of a hobbit sitting on her horse with her would have given her away anyway ? Same goes for the scene in the film before the Riders charge at the Pelennor.

If Éowyn had not bothered to disguise herself, Théoden would have been very likely to have learned she had accompanied the host, and probably would have sent her back to Rohan under guard. The presence of Merry was noted by the soldiers in Dernhelm's company, but it wouldn't necessarily have been a big deal for them, as knowing the appointed Regent of Rohan was riding to war in Gondor would have.

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

- Why didn't the Ents intercept Mauhur and his "lads" skulking in Fangorn?

The Ents were very apathetic about the events going on around them. It took Merry and Pippin to rouse Treebeard and move him to mobilize the others. And Treebeard seems to have been the only Ent in that part of the Forest at that time anyway.

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

- If time was of the essence, why did the Company take so long before setting off from Rivendell and why did they hang about for so long in Lorien?

The task of destroying the Ring was supremely important, but there was no need to be reckless about it. Gandalf explained the delay at Rivendell: they didn't want to move until a thorough exploration of the surrounding lands had been done.
Lórien was a necessary rest stop.

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

- Why did Aragorn not tell the rest of the Company that Gollum was following them through Moria ? "You know about our little footpad" ?

Why alarm everyone? They couldn't do anything about him anyway, and they were generally keeping a watch at all times.

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

- If Gildor and his company could see off the Black Riders, wouldn't it have made more sense for Gildor to provide an escort for Frodo to get him safely to Rivendell ?

As Gildor himself said:

The Elves have their own labours, and their own sorrows, and they are little concerned with the ways of hobbits, or of any other creatures upon earth.

By the Third Age, the Elves as a rule were occupied by their own affairs. They would still give refuge and counsel, but their time for punitive action was over.
Besides, Gildor wasn't going that way.

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

- When Boromir's horse bolted at Tharbad and returned to Rohan, surely Edoras would have told Minas Tirith, who in turn would have organised some kind of search party ?

A search party? Even if the word could have been gotten to Denethor more quickly than many days, how on earth would they have known where to start looking?

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

- If Gwaihir could fly to Mount Doom in a matter of minutes, why not just give him the Ring and ask him to fly down there and drop it in the volcano ?

I'm not touching that one with a 10 meter troll-sword.

[Mnemosyne]

Saruman was not dominated by Sauron through the Palantir. He, like Denethor, thought that he could use it despite Sauron's control of his own stone. Saruman's plans were and always had been to get the Ring for himself, which meant breeding his own orcs and pretending (at least from his perspective) to cooperate with Sauron.

As far as the Dernhelm issue, I'd argue that anyone could have picked up Merry (but Eowyn understood his desire not to be left behind so it makes sense for it to be her). At this point he had had minimal contact with her, which also explains why he didn't recognize her. And Merry does try to remain secret anyway. People have also theorized that Elfhelm knew who Dernhelm was.

The company waited to set out from Rivendell because they didn't know how safe it would be and they certainly didn't know what had happened to the Nine. Kind of stupid to walk out on your quest and then run into the Nazgul all over again... And they were clearly burned out by the time they reached Lorien. The hasty stroke often goes awry and if they had just stopped there long enough to rest physically they would have broken down much sooner.

Where does it say that Boromir's horse returned to Rohan? For some reason I always read "lost" as "the horse drowned" but I haven't reread that portion of the books for a while.

Two of your queries I'm afraid I can only answer well through non-scholarly works.

As for Gimli hewing naught but wood, I give you some pedantry.

And as for Gwaihir, who's to say that the lofty Eagles are without temptation?


And with that, I'd like to offer up an inconsistency of my own:

On the door to Moria, Moria is referred to as Moria, even though it was never given that name until Durin's Bane was awakened. Huh?

Unfortunately at some levels you can see the stagecraft. But you have to be looking pretty closely if you ask me.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

- Gandalf released Shadowfax in Eriador two months before the Company left Rivendell, but Eomer told Aragorn that the horse had returned to Rohan only 7 days before they met in the Wold.

Shadowfax presumably took his time, and there was no reason for him to return to Rohan except for the purposes of meeting Gandalf. That is about when Gandalf made his way into that region.

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

- Denethor and Saruman both encountered Sauron using their respective Palantir. Yet Denethor was not dominated and Saruman was. Surely it should have been the other way round ?

Paradoxically it seems, Denethor was the man with the superior will power. Perhaps also the right to use the Palantir was part of it as well.

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

- What was the point of Eowyn dressing up as Dernhelm ? Surely the sight of a hobbit sitting on her horse with her would have given her away anyway ? Same goes for the scene in the film before the Riders charge at the Pelennor.

My understanding was that he hid under her cloak, although clearly some knew they were there.

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

- If Gwaihir could fly to Mount Doom in a matter of minutes, why not just give him the Ring and ask him to fly down there and drop it in the volcano ?

See comments in the recent thread on Eagles. My interpretation is that the Eagles in fact are the agents of Eru and they were prohibited from intervening directly in the destruction of the Ring. Otherwise, as you said, a lightning strike into Mordor and Mount Doom could have taken care of it.

[Galin]

On the door to Moria, Moria is referred to as Moria, even though it was never given that name until Durin's Bane was awakened. Huh?

It didn't necessarily say Moria on the actual door however.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

It didn't necessarily say Moria on the actual door however.

I've wondered about that. Gandalf's use of 'Moria' could have just been an instance of his using the name most recognized by people at that point in time. Not being exceptionally keen where Elvish writing is concerned, I wonder if 'Moria' was the name shown in the illustration of the Doors as written by Celebrimbor.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Galin

It didn't necessarily say Moria on the actual door however.

It does on Tolkien's drawing of the door in LotR: Ennyn Durin Aran Moria. Following the translator conceit, this would be a copy of a drawing in the original Red Book, done by somebody who had seen the door (Frodo or Sam, presumably). That's as close to the actual door as it gets.
It probably should have been Ennyn Durin Aran Hadhodrond, with the Sindarin translation of Khazad-dûm which the Elves used before it was renamed Moria (see Silmarillion index); but apparently Tolkien hadn't invented that name at the time of writing LotR.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I've wondered about that. Gandalf's use of 'Moria' could have just been an instance of his using the name most recognized by people at that point in time.

I agree. The picture in the books is a 'close enough' visual representation of the doors, not the actual doors of course.

The writing in the picture also need not reflect what is on the actual doors, since there are two exterior Dwarvish names in the writing, which must be due to the modern translator (Durin, Narvi).

[Pitchwife]

Galin, you're right about the writing, of course. I'd completely neglected that Durin and Narvi (from the Völuspa) were not their 'actual' Mannish names - so we don't have a copy of the Red Book drawing, but a 'translation drawing', so to speak (as with Balin's epitaph).

[Galin]

We might suggest something similar with respect to some of the runes in The Hobbit too -- considered to 'really' represent internal runes. This is noted in Tolkien's Legendarium (in an essay about runes by Arden Smith), as one possible explanation:

'This is supported by Tolkien's statement in the foreword to the 1966 third edition of The Hobbit: '[The Dwarves] runes are in this book represented by English runes'

As for Gimli's remark -- Tolkien didn't forget about Parth Galen, Gimli did

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

Where does it say that Boromir's horse returned to Rohan? For some reason I always read "lost" as "the horse drowned" but I haven't reread that portion of the books for a while.

Eomer told Aragorn that the horse Rohan had lent Boromir returned when they first met in the Wold.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

My understanding was that he hid under her cloak, although clearly some knew they were there.

.

They were helped by the general darkness and "devil's mirk" though it is quite clear that Elfhelm was in on it and his men knew not to draw attention to the stow aways. Elfhelm is one of my favourite minor characters and you can only imagine those unwritten scenes when Eowyn persuaded him to play along and when Eomer discovered the answer to his question "Eowyn!, how came you here?".

[Morthoron]

Tolkien's inconsistencies are usually attributible to his incessant dawdling with the story. He writes, then rewrites, edits the rewrites and then writes the whole thing over again. Some of the old material remains with the rewritten material, and over time there are strata of story molded into a coherent whole. It's rather like the whole process of oral mythology eventually conglomerating into printed form, except writ small by a single author over decades, when the usal process takes centuries.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Tolkien's inconsistencies are usually attributible to his incessant dawdling with the story. He writes, then rewrites, edits the rewrites and then writes the whole thing over again. Some of the old material remains with the rewritten material, and over time there are strata of story molded into a coherent whole. It's rather like the whole process of oral mythology eventually conglomerating into printed form, except writ small by a single author over decades, when the usal process takes centuries.

That's probably true, just as the 'real' reason we don't see the Eagles flying Frodo to the Fire is that they were a plot device that Tolkien had stretched (with full awareness) to its limit. Still, looking for in-universe explanations is a fun exercise.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

- If Gwaihir could fly to Mount Doom in a matter of minutes, why not just give him the Ring and ask him to fly down there and drop it in the volcano ?

One thing that everyone seems to forget - at that moment, when Gwaihir rescues Frodo and Sam, Mordor is wide open and unguarded.

Anyone could have walked into Mordor unchallenged at that moment - because the Ring was destroyed, Sauron was reduced to a mere shadow, the Nazgul were consumed and all of Sauron's servants were fleeing in terror and confusion. Try walking into Mordor ten minutes earlier and you wouldn't have gone five feet before being turned into good-guy pate! Your only chance of escaping detection was to be extremely small and inconspicuous.

So it's easy for the Eagles to fly over Mordor and reach Mount Doom once all opposition has been destroyed, but we can't assume it was so easy even ten minutes earlier!

There is also the slight problem that the Eagles might not have been willing and another issue - could the Eagles have physically accessed the Sammath Naur? They might have been too big to get in there!

A third equally tricky issue ... they may have been no more able to toss the Ring into the fire than anyone else. Imagine Gwaihir the Windlord proclaiming himself Gwaihir the Ringlord on the slopes of Mount Doom!

As for the other inconsistencies, I'll have to say that none of these cause a problem for me. Some of these points have already been addressed, especially by Inziladun, Mnemosyne and CSteefel, but I'll make some additional comments.

- At the Hornburg Gimli says he had "hewed naught but wood since Moria" after killing 2 orcs. But surely he had killed orcs at Parth Galen ?

We don't know that. His statement implies that he didn't.

- Gandalf released Shadowfax in Eriador two months before the Company left Rivendell, but Eomer told Aragorn that the horse had returned to Rohan only 7 days before they met in the Wold.

This is only a problem if you think that Shadowfax wanted to return to Rohan as quickly as possible. We don't know what Shadowfax was thinking - remember he was one of the Mearas, not an ordinary horse.

- Denethor and Saruman both encountered Sauron using their respective Palantir. Yet Denethor was not dominated and Saruman was. Surely it should have been the other way round ?

As has already been noted, Saruman was not dominated. Don't be confused by the movie-Saruman. Two more things - Saruman had a palantir far longer than Denethor and Saruman was being corrupted by his lust for the Ring. However, despite being entitled to use his palantir it seems clear that Denethor's spirit was broken by Sauron ...

- What was the point of Eowyn dressing up as Dernhelm ? Surely the sight of a hobbit sitting on her horse with her would have given her away anyway ? Same goes for the scene in the film before the Riders charge at the Pelennor.

I'm sure there were more important priorities than wondering why one of the Riders was carrying a hobbit! I do accept the point that Elfhelm probably knew about "Dernhelm".

- Why didn't the Ents intercept Mauhur and his "lads" skulking in Fangorn ?

Those guys wouldn't do anything without a long-winded Entmoot!

- If Gildor and his company could see off the Black Riders, wouldn't it have made more sense for Gildor to provide an escort for Frodo to get him safely to Rivendell ?

They were leaving Middle-Earth and so their priority was to head West. You might as well ask why Tom Bombadil didn't offer to escort Frodo to Rivendell!

- When Boromir's horse bolted at Tharbad and returned to Rohan, surely Edoras would have told Minas Tirith, who in turn would have organised some kind of search party ?

They wouldn't have known where to look and it would have been far too late to have done any good.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

As has already been noted, Saruman was not dominated. Don't be confused by the movie-Saruman. Two more things - Saruman had a palantir far longer than Denethor and Saruman was being corrupted by his lust for the Ring. However, despite being entitled to use his palantir it seems clear that Denethor's spirit was broken by Sauron ...

Saruman was under Sauron's domination, in that he no longer opposed Sauron's victory, and was in fact supporting it, assuming he could not get the Ring for himself.
Of Saruman and Denethor, it was apparently Denethor who actually made first use of the Stone available to him.

....it is probable, considering Denethor and what is said about him, that he began to use the Anor-stone many years before 3019, and earlier than Saruman ventured or thought it useful to use the Stone of Orthanc.

UT The Palantíri

Also, though the selected visions Sauron fed to Denethor, and the strain of using the Stone itself were certainly factors in Denethor's general grimness, it wasn't until the seeming death of Faramir that he was finally mentally overthrown.

[Loslote]

[QUOTE
- What was the point of Eowyn dressing up as Dernhelm ? Surely the sight of a hobbit sitting on her horse with her would have given her away anyway ? Same goes for the scene in the film before the Riders charge at the Pelennor. [/QUOTE]

In my mind, the Riders didn't necessarily want to expose Eowyn. So long as they could technically say, "I didn't know, it's not my fault," they were willing to turn a blind eye.

[QUOTE - Why did Aragorn not tell the rest of the Company that Gollum was following them through Moria ? "You know about our little footpad" .
[/QUOTE]

Why needlessly scare the rest? If your company was already nervous, why would you say, "Oh, by the way, we're being stalked by yet another thing that wants to kill us." If there is no danger, it would be best to leave it be.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Saruman was under Sauron's domination, in that he no longer opposed Sauron's victory, and was in fact supporting it, assuming he could not get the Ring for himself.

I'm assuming you are referring to this from UT:

It may be noted that the effects were different. Saruman fell under the domination of Sauron and desired his victory, or no longer opposed it. Denethor remained steadfast in his rejection of Sauron, but was made to believe that his victory was inevitable, and so fell into despair. The reasons for this difference were no doubt that in the first place Denethor was a man of great strength of will, and maintained the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the (apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son. He was proud, but this was by no means merely personal: he loved Gondor and its people, and deemed himself appointed by destiny to lead them in this desperate time.

Saruman no longer opposed Sauron, which is of course a lot different from Denethor who always maintained his "integrity." However, I would not call Saruman dominated by Sauron, in the puppet-sense that the movies protrayed. Chris Lee was correct in one of his many interviews where he claimed that Saruman sought the Ring for himself, and desired to be the Ring-lord. In Saruman's mind, it would be easier to achieve his own goals if he joined with Sauron, planning in secret to back-stab him, when the proper time came. When Saruman captures Gandalf he reveals his true mind of joining Sauron, becoming his trusted friend, and then attempt to boot him out of Barad-dur. But I think the UT has a better quote to reveal Saruman's true intentions:

Two days after Gandalf had departed from Orthanc, the Lord of Morgul halted before the Gate of Isengard. Then Saruman, already filled with wrath and fear by the escape of Gandalf, perceived the peril of standing between two enemies, a known traitor to both. His dread was great, for his hope of deceiving Sauron, or at least of receiving his favour in victory, was utterly lost....Therefor to his [The Wiki's] challenge and demands he received only the answer of the Voice of Saruman, that spoke by some art as though it came from the Gate itself.

"It is not a land that you look for," it said. "I know what you seek, though you do not name it. I have it not, as surely its servants perceive without telling; for if I had it, then you would bow before me and call me Lord. And if I knew where this thing was hid, I should not be here, but long gone before you take it. There is one only whom I guess to have this knoweldge: Mithrandir, enemy of Sauron..."

...Such was still the power of the voice of Saruman that even the Lord of the Nazgul did not question what it said, whether it was false or short of full truth; but straightway he rode from the Gate and began to hunt for Gandalf in Rohan.~Hunt for the Ring

Saruman basically told the Witch-King if he ever got a hold of the Ring the Wiki would bow to him, yet Saruman was such a sweet talker, Sauron did not discover Saruman's betrayal until much later. In The Uruk-hai chapter Grishnakh says that Saruman is a "treacherous fool" and the "Eye is on him," but I still would not say Sauron was certain of Saruman's plans until after Isengard's destruction and Pippin looks into the palantir. Sauron assumes the palantir was still in Isengard and sent a Nazgul out at once to collect the "treat," but as Gandalf smartly observes Saruman has finally caught himself in the vice:

"So Saruman will come to the last pinch of the vice vice that he has put his hand in. He has no captive to send. He has no Stone to see with, and cannot answer the summons. Sauron will only believe that he is withholding the captive and refusing to use the Stone."~The Palantir

Saruman was dominated through the Palantir, because he lost his "integrity", so to say, he abandoned the very purpose that the Istari were sent to Middle-earth. However, he was not dominated in the sense that he was Sauron's puppet, under his control. Saruman was able to not only deceive his former friends, but keep his true mind hidden from Sauron. (He sure let the Wiki know who was boss! ) and Sauron only found out of Saruman's betrayal until Pippin looks into the Palantir, which was even after Gandalf and all found out!

Of Saruman and Denethor, it was apparently Denethor who actually made first use of the Stone available to him.

It was believed after his wife died (2988) he began viewing the stone:

After her death Denethor became more grim and silent than before, and would sit long alone in his tower deep in thought, foreseeing that the assault of Mordor would come in his time. It was afterwards believed that needing knowledge, but being proud, and trusting in his own strength of will, he dared look into the palantir of the White Tower.~Appendix A: Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion; The Stewards

Saruman didn't begin to view the stone until the TA 3000 (according to Appendix B)