Tumults of Fire & Inrushing Sea - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Hilde Bracegirdle · 01-18-2003, 08:07 PM

In reading the chapter of UT on Aldarion & Erendis one of the footnotes describes the first return of the Numenorians to Middle Earth. The Men of Eriador were amazed at their return because:

Quote:

they had believed that the men who dwelt in the lands beyond had been destroyed or drowned in great tumults of fire and inrushing seas.

Can anyone shed some light on what is refered to here? Does Beleriand start sinking before Numenor drowns?

So many questions......
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Iarwain · 01-18-2003, 08:29 PM

Well, I'm not sure if I understand what you're asking for, but Beleriand did sink long before Numenor.

Unsure,
Iarwain

Manwe Sulimo · 01-18-2003, 09:01 PM

Indeed. That quote is referring to the Edain who dwelt in Beleriand (specifically Brethil and Dol-lómin), who departed the shores of Middle-earth for Elenna, and founded Númenor. The lesser men obviously thought that the Edain and most of the Elves were destroyed in the cataclysm that sank Beleriand (a good 3000 years before the sinking of Elenna, I might add).

doug*platypus · 01-18-2003, 10:09 PM

Very reasonable assumption, Manwë. But "the lands beyond" sounds more likely to refer to Númenor itself, unless the phrase was "the lands beyond Ered Luin". The sinking of Númenor was a huge event, and maybe it's possible that physical signs of it were seen from Middle-Earth. Either a great wave, a tsunami such as results from a large meteorite impact, or possibly at night they could see signs of some burning.

Or maybe a little bird told them. It would have taken the Faithful days or weeks to sail back to the Hither Lands, limping along with torn sails.

Voronwe · 01-19-2003, 07:03 AM

It cannot refer to the fall of Numenor, since the fall of Numenor had not yet taken place. The quote describes the reaction of the Men of Eriador when the first ships sailed back to Middle Earth from Numenor, over 2000 years before the fall of Numenor itself.

Inderjit Sanghera · 01-19-2003, 08:14 AM

Read 'tal-Elinion' in HoME 12, if you want some kind of idea on how the men of M-E felt about the Numenoreans.

The sinking, was proably the sinking of Beleriand. I assume that the Beorian and Borrim tribes of Eriador refused the summons of the Valar and they must have thought that all the men who went to Numenor founded in the drowning of Beleriand, and they passed it on too the Marachians of Rhovanion and the Haladin and Easterlings of hte South. Remeber, the passing of the Numenoreans was proablably legendary, since they only came to M-E 600 years or so after they left and Cirdan refused to take any 50 years or so after Numenor was founded.

[ January 20, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]

Hilde Bracegirdle · 01-19-2003, 09:05 AM

Ah, so Beleriand's misfortunes do come before Numenor's.

Thanks all for posting so quickly. Seems I should reread Sil. (It has been ages since I have, no pun intended. Well, maybe.) But I'm assuming that it is covered there.

[ January 19, 2003: Message edited by: Hilde Bracegirdle ]

doug*platypus · 01-20-2003, 06:12 AM

Quote:

no pun intended.

None taken.

01-18-2003, 08:29 PM	#2
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	Well, I'm not sure if I understand what you're asking for, but Beleriand did sink long before Numenor. Unsure, Iarwain __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

01-18-2003, 09:01 PM	#3
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Indeed. That quote is referring to the Edain who dwelt in Beleriand (specifically Brethil and Dol-lómin), who departed the shores of Middle-earth for Elenna, and founded Númenor. The lesser men obviously thought that the Edain and most of the Elves were destroyed in the cataclysm that sank Beleriand (a good 3000 years before the sinking of Elenna, I might add). __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

01-18-2003, 10:09 PM	#4
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	Very reasonable assumption, Manwë. But "the lands beyond" sounds more likely to refer to Númenor itself, unless the phrase was "the lands beyond Ered Luin". The sinking of Númenor was a huge event, and maybe it's possible that physical signs of it were seen from Middle-Earth. Either a great wave, a tsunami such as results from a large meteorite impact, or possibly at night they could see signs of some burning. Or maybe a little bird told them. It would have taken the Faithful days or weeks to sail back to the Hither Lands, limping along with torn sails. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

01-19-2003, 07:03 AM	#5
Voronwe Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Gondolin Posts: 413	It cannot refer to the fall of Numenor, since the fall of Numenor had not yet taken place. The quote describes the reaction of the Men of Eriador when the first ships sailed back to Middle Earth from Numenor, over 2000 years before the fall of Numenor itself. __________________ "If you would be a real seeker after truth, you must at least once in your life doubt, as far as possible, all things." -- René Descartes

01-19-2003, 08:14 AM	#6
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	Read 'tal-Elinion' in HoME 12, if you want some kind of idea on how the men of M-E felt about the Numenoreans. The sinking, was proably the sinking of Beleriand. I assume that the Beorian and Borrim tribes of Eriador refused the summons of the Valar and they must have thought that all the men who went to Numenor founded in the drowning of Beleriand, and they passed it on too the Marachians of Rhovanion and the Haladin and Easterlings of hte South. Remeber, the passing of the Numenoreans was proablably legendary, since they only came to M-E 600 years or so after they left and Cirdan refused to take any 50 years or so after Numenor was founded. [ January 20, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ] __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

01-19-2003, 09:05 AM	#7
Hilde Bracegirdle Relic of Wandering Days Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: You'll See Perpetual Change. Posts: 1,480	Ah, so Beleriand's misfortunes do come before Numenor's. Thanks all for posting so quickly. Seems I should reread Sil. (It has been ages since I have, no pun intended. Well, maybe.) But I'm assuming that it is covered there. [ January 19, 2003: Message edited by: Hilde Bracegirdle ]